Anyone with reach of 2 or more can ignore the shield penalty (BBB, p 284). The troll remains at a base of 4, while the opposition is raised to a 6. Should the troll use his reach to lower his TN to 2, he'll crush his opposition.

And Friends in Melee isn't a big help, either; since that caps out at +4, they'll tie at a TN of 6. Given that said troll probably has a huge skill, and the unarmed humans probably don't, the crowd is going to be cleared the hard way.

If you want to get really nasty with this combo, have the troll take Off Hand Clubs with a specialization in Riot Shields. That's a potential 9 or 10 dice to start with, with skill alone. It can get much worse from there.

Don't forget the other riot cops. I didn't figure in the friends in melee since they should both be maxed out in that particular situation, and would cancel out.

BBB is lame. I think some use it because it makes them feel superior because they are part of an exclusive group that uses a codeword for the most basic book in the game. It keeps people who don't know the codeword on the outside of their exclusive group.

I post on Dumpshock in order to communicate with people, and using abbreviations that interfere with the communication goes against what I'm trying to do.

Dr. Funk, I applaud you for saying it's lame.

Well BBB (I have not read it). I will take your point that it is lame.

Here I am trying to get a SR3 point of view. Not a BBB point of view.

Doc and Ourteam, thank you for the advice that it is a Short Hand of SR3.

Stumps, thank you for the clear up I appreciate it. I have only been on DSF for 3 months, still getting used to the acronyms.

Ignore BBB. It's silly.
Mainly because at this point there are 3 Shadowrun Core Rule Books and "BBB" only refers to "The" core rule book.
Which lets me know nothing of which version you are playing between (most likely) Edition 2 and Edition 3.

Besides...the Bible is also Big, Black, and a Book, so...

ROTFL

Why some use BBB and some use SR3. I would find SR3 more practical.

It is. It's also what the books themselves use.

ROTFLMAO!!

You mean SR3 is CANON but no one around here** want's to use the CANON acronym?? How ironic

**(not everyone...remember...this is a joke)

BBB has been the unofficial acronym of the current Shadowrun Core Rulebook since the First Edition, when it stood for Big Blue Book (SR1 would have been a bit presumptuous ). It came about with the inception of the ShadowRN and ShadowTK email lists and the various Usenet newsgroups, before even Deep Resonance existed.

I prefer BBB. Maybe it's because I'm used to warhammer (it's the BRB there... big red book), but BBB makes sense to me as the core rulebook. It's not that I'm snooty, I just like it.

JaronK

So when somebody say BBB it combines SR1 SR2 and SR3. I would say SR3 is mor logical. As BBB could mean SR 1 to 3.

The WHFB is BRB and 40K FKRB.

Not really. BBB means the current core rulebook. Everyone can reasonably assume as much. If you want to do an out of date edition, you'd specify... just like if I say "let's go back to the house" to my housemate, we can both assume I meant our house... if I meant another house, I'd specify.

JaronK

When I use BBB, I mean the Shadowrun 3rd Edition rulebook. When I use SR3, I use it to contrast the editions.

SR3 to me means the whole SR 3rd Ed rules, not just the core rulebook(although it is Canon )

I like to keep both terms seperate.

So, how 'bout them shock gloves?

They work great on a goons groin

Shock kneepads?

~J

neat idea, but no. I just hit him by taking the initiative with a bonus from surprise and used my combat pool to make sure I hit him.
He was right in the middle of yelling at me and I knew where it was headed since his thugs were there with him (he was a gang leader and my character used to circle his area but had left a bad taste with him over his sister and my character dating)

Now...by Canon, he just took a wound.
By my GM...he passed out instantly.

As far as I know the rules never specify, thus by default they both are staged. Most people I know only stage one or the other.

What I read in the book is that the Stun isn't staged but comes as an extra effect on top of any successful striking contact with the glove.
Here's where I'm getting my interpitation from.

SR3, p124, Shock Weapons:"A successful hit by a stun weapon stuns the target a number of Combat Turns equal to the Power of the attack, minus one-half (rounded down) any impact armor worn, and also minus the successes generated from Body or Willpower Test (whichever is greater) made against a Target Number 4."

Basically, what I'm seeing here is that it reads, "A (singular) successful hit" (meaning [/i]one[/i] success over your opponent).

Or rather,
If Any hit succeeds, then the stun duration is equal to the Power Rating of the attack, minus the successes generated from a Body or Willpower Test made against a TN 4.

SR3, p275, Shock Golves:"When striking with shock gloves, first damage is reduced to (Str-1)M, but the golves deliver an extra 7S Stun."

And what I'm walking away with from this is that they are looking at the hitting power and the shock power of this weapon seperately, by the use of the word "extra".

What is the Power of your fists attack?
(Str-1)M

What is the Power of a Stun Gloves Attack?
7S Stun

So the Stun will stay 7 Power and will stay a Serious Stun, but the successes generated will determine the amount of damage dealt by just the punch (Str-1)M.

So the final look in my mind is that you Roll your (Str-1)M stage up with your "Determine Damage" part of the Melee, and then you get to the "Damage Resist Test" part of the Melee where the target will stage down your (Str-1M) by aiming for a TN equal to your (Str-1)M's Power rating minus impact armor, and then because of the 7S Stun, the target will attempt to stage down the duration of the Stun (7 Combat Turns) by aiming for a TN 4 with their Body or Will.

Boy howdy, this sure is worth arguin' over.

From a acronym list I found here at DSF. I found out what this all mean't. I think there should be a locked topic that has all the updates on the acronym that people could use as a reference.

Bleh! While that would help to some degree (especially if it "encouraged" the phasing out of that damnable BBB crap), "sticky" threads are bleeding annoyin especially when they get to the point that they force you to scroll down just to see the new topics.

Not that it's much of a problem here, but it has been a bitch on other boards.

So, uh...3 posts up I tried to continue the conversation on Shock Gloves...um...anyone still wanting to go about that conversation?

Is there anyother weapon with a damage code that isn't staged? Doesn't the stun baton do a fixed 8S without being staged?

Chemical attacks?

Chemical attacks specifically mention that they don't stage. Neither Stun Batons nor Stun Gloves nor Defiance Super Shocks make any such mention. Nor does SR3 page 124, "Shock Weapons." In fact, that page specifically mentions: "...is handled according to the normal rules for that type of weapon."

Right. But the question was, "Is there anyother weapon with a damage code that isn't staged?"
I think the damage should stage as normal, but I think it's unbalanced to apply attack successes twice. The attacker should apply the successes to whichever damage code they want, and the defender must resist both; in my opinion.

My reasons not in print, for not staging shock damage is this.

Other than turning up the voltage, nothing is going to increase the volatge on a taser or shock style weapon.

That's my understanding of every shock I've ever seen.

I could shock you in the throat, the arm, or the groin. It's all going to have the same relative effect.

That what I say, and most of my group says. IF you hit the successes don't count to the shock. As it has other effects.

1 Half impact armour.
1 Body(4) for the orientation effects

To stage the damage and have all the effects is a little over board.

actually stumps there are places where shocking someone will do more or less effect (eg leg is less effect and upper chest is one of the most likely places to incapacitate somebody)

That would be like a called shot. As that is going for a specific body part. the the damage will change.

It would only be like a called shot if they were going specifically for that part of the body. Trying to hit someone wherever you can get and doing really well would have the same effect.

~J