Thanks for the suggestion Darkshade. Will have to go hunt up a copy of Dark Conspiracy for the ideas if nothing else. The idea of "Darktech" could be very workable. If the tech makes its host more susceptible to the Horror influence it could make for a very nice story device.
Having never played ED I can not say much about what the Horrors could or could not do when a massive break out occurred. However if you where to compare the Horrors to say a massive break out of Ebula with no known center or dozens of centers of origination it would become very difficult to put down or contain. The problem is not can the advanced tech kill them but can you kill enough of them and contain the situation before they erode your support structure when they are popping up all over the place? Add to that that in the world of SR you have sprawls filled with the poor and sinless surrounding your production facilities and the problem of losing your support structure quickly becomes priority number one. Just my thoughts.
Full Version: Horrors
Pull a Universal Brotherhood and put Dread Iota in soup kitchens. Slip it into university and office cafeterias. Disperse it amongst the ingredients in an upscale restaurant, or into a blood bank.
~J
~J
given that it will be about 1000 years before the scourge starts. I am seeing a mech pilot going up to Vergigorm as itg is about to devour Hestaby and the pilot screaming "Get away from her, you BITCH!"
No. Just no.
Or maybe, and then getting his or her ass kicked. As it damn well should be.
Oh, and there are implications that the Scourge may start in decades to centuries, not millennia.
~J
Or maybe, and then getting his or her ass kicked. As it damn well should be.
Oh, and there are implications that the Scourge may start in decades to centuries, not millennia.
~J
I think a 100 ton assault mech using clan tech stands a good change.
also
also
[ Spoiler ]
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| imo, is there was a heigra into space stations and the like, then the mana warp would be pushed out. Life, as far as I know, creates the "habitable" astral areas near our reality. (not unlike the 'force') |
I beleive you're right, life does create an automatic manasphere. However you need lots of life, I think the oribital colonies just have a force 8 or 9 manawarp instead of force 10, they generate enough mana from life to reduce it but until you start getting near-earth levels of life you'll still have enough manawarp to kill astral nasties very fast, just make sure no colony has humans in the millions, stick with the thousands level and keep them a ways apart.
And personally I say "hell year" to mecha vs. horror. But I'm thinking much nastier things in store for them than that and much more subtle than a mere mecha. Still that's mostly fantasy of how
For instance dual-natured nanites from a combination magic and tech base that Dunkelzahn seems to be encouraging. Automatically erases a horror mark from your aura (Along with cleansing it of any nasty spells that would be affecting you as soon as they're cast and giving any magic attacks a hefty TN mod), and if you've got the high quality kind also unleashes a massively powerful slay horror spell right back when it tries.
And dread iota's going to be really screwed if mere physical nanites are present in the bloodstream waiting to greet it. . . with open nanoclaws. Bye bye iota.
Dual-natured bullets for killing body and aura in one blow (and possibly casting something like spirit blast if they find a way to make anchoring foci less gimped). A video version of that astral camera in SOTA 64 made into goggles, enabling the mundane to take down astral forms by himself.
Milspec hardened armor designed with wards, armor mods, and astral barriers built right for your horror-slaying enjoyment. From head to feet immune to spells, marking, most physical damage, and look at this nifty built in laser cannon that does elemental damage!
And that's what I can see as tech in decades, not centuries. In centuries, assuming technology keeps advancing like it is now, your average street gang would be powerful enough to take down the scourge with godlike powers. I'm thinking regeneration, attributes in the triple digits, etc. just from all humans having massive augmentation and genetech from before they're even in the womb as casually as we innoculate children today from all manner of diseases that struck down our ancestors.
Nanite, say hello to Force 9+ Powerbolt.
Regarding the dual-natured nanites, that’s as plausible as the Horrors developing the OMFGWTFYAIMNKTHXBYE technique.
~J
Regarding the dual-natured nanites, that’s as plausible as the Horrors developing the OMFGWTFYAIMNKTHXBYE technique.
~J
Force 9 Powerbolt? How droll. Have you ever read the spell rules in the BBB?
Let's see, the human body is bereft of light. That means no LOS. Oh darn, powerbolt fails, nanite rips the dread iota to shreds. The nanites aren't dual natured to hunt dread iota so astral targetting is impossible even if a GM allowed such a game-breaking power.
What's that you say? Touch range version? You're touching the nanite. It's already ripping you apart at that point and the dread iota is probably either dead or heavily distracted from being in the bacterial version of melee combat and wounded to boot. And of course there's the fact that the nanite will have an OR in the teens, or at a bare "Let's make it easy" minimum 8 plus some wound modifiers so the dread iota's going to have one mother of a TN.
Lastly let's see a quote from the horrors book showing that dread iota can cast powerbolt, or even that they know how to cast spells at all.
Finally you think dual-natured nanites are absurd. Actually so do I but I see shadowrun going in that direction from the stuff in dunkie's will, SOTA 64, and such, magic and tech are learning to work together better. All you really need is an optical microscope and a really bored mage casting an astral barrier/warding (Or maybe a microscopic special hermetic ring variant) each nanite. Absurdly slow and annoying (And the TN is a killer) unless a way is made to streamline it but surely possible. Now you've got nanites that can attack and destroy things like horror marks and hostile spells using their astral barrier as a weapon. It could almost be done now in SR if you had an absurd amount of time for warding them.
Let's see, the human body is bereft of light. That means no LOS. Oh darn, powerbolt fails, nanite rips the dread iota to shreds. The nanites aren't dual natured to hunt dread iota so astral targetting is impossible even if a GM allowed such a game-breaking power.
What's that you say? Touch range version? You're touching the nanite. It's already ripping you apart at that point and the dread iota is probably either dead or heavily distracted from being in the bacterial version of melee combat and wounded to boot. And of course there's the fact that the nanite will have an OR in the teens, or at a bare "Let's make it easy" minimum 8 plus some wound modifiers so the dread iota's going to have one mother of a TN.
Lastly let's see a quote from the horrors book showing that dread iota can cast powerbolt, or even that they know how to cast spells at all.
Finally you think dual-natured nanites are absurd. Actually so do I but I see shadowrun going in that direction from the stuff in dunkie's will, SOTA 64, and such, magic and tech are learning to work together better. All you really need is an optical microscope and a really bored mage casting an astral barrier/warding (Or maybe a microscopic special hermetic ring variant) each nanite. Absurdly slow and annoying (And the TN is a killer) unless a way is made to streamline it but surely possible. Now you've got nanites that can attack and destroy things like horror marks and hostile spells using their astral barrier as a weapon. It could almost be done now in SR if you had an absurd amount of time for warding them.
Hmm... magically augmented tech, technologically augmented magic... The Big D left grants to figure this out. That means he thought it was going to be useful. Maybe I should work on that if I ever resurrect my Second Scourge campaign.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Space has no mana. Horrors are creatures of mana. The warp of space will kill any astral or dual natured creature in seconds, minutes at the outside. If there are horrors capable of being completely physical with no magical component at all (Probably) they are now quite vulnerable to all our physical weapons as well. Say hello to my orbital railgun. |
Space has mana, if not then space stations wouldn't be able to hold a manasphere. Mana in space simpy isn't aspected to life the way it is on Earth.
Here is a question, what have the Horrors developed sense the last time? The big named ones that did not get killed off are presumably still out there some where. So what have they been doing sense the 4th world ended? Outside of growing older and more powerful I mean. They have had some contact already with this world through some of their numbers slipping in and idiots contacting them. So they should have some vauge ideas of the world they are coming back to. Any thoughts?
As always, it depends on the individual. I suspect one of thea really mean pain eaters is planning to get a daytime talk show. Artificer is probably leaking unneccessary oils (drooling) at the tales of the orbital stations. Giftbringer is working on HEAPIF (High Explosive Armor Piercing Incendiary Flechette) gel rounds for the gun-bunnies. And big, old Verjy is probably just laughing.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| Force 9 Powerbolt? How droll. Have you ever read the spell rules in the BBB? |
Funny, very funny.
| QUOTE |
| Let's see, the human body is bereft of light. That means no LOS. Oh darn, powerbolt fails, nanite rips the dread iota to shreds. The nanites aren't dual natured to hunt dread iota so astral targetting is impossible even if a GM allowed such a game-breaking power. |
Light spell! Or, if you're near the skin, the human body is damn far from bereft of light.
I’ll address the rest when I get home from work.
~J
It was mentioned earlier that the Horrors do not have essence or at least their essence is something diffrent than Metahuman Essence. So if their essence is so diffrent could it not be possible for them to survive manawarps unlike a metahuman magic user?
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Giftbringer is working on HEAPIF (High Explosive Armor Piercing Incendiary Flechette) gel rounds for the gun-bunnies. |
We already have High-Explosive, Incendiary, Armor Piercing ammunition (IRL, that is). Adding a penetrator dart (ie flechette) into that is completely useless. Gel rounds are the exact opposite of such a round. If that's what Giftbringer is working on, not only is he a dumb motherfucker, he's also 90 years behind SOTA.
We did the whole "horror advancement" thing back in the earlier threads, and it boils down to this: The threat of the horrors was not significantly greater in the 4th age than it was in the 2nd. Had the horrors advanced as much between the 2nd and the 4th as some are suggesting they'll advance between 4th and 6th, they would have immediately wiped out the whole world and nobody (not IEs, not GDs, nobody) would have stood the slightest chance of doing anything but promptly being tortured to death.
And if the reason why the horrors are now advancing, at least technologically, is that they have contacted earth through various means and are working on (meta)human technologies, then that means they are trying to learn from the (meta)humanity. If the only way they can learn any of this stuff is by trying to contact the earth and get people to leak information to them, then it's a safe bet (meta)humanity is and will be way, way ahead in nearly all aspects of technology.
Well, give the thing a break, it's been asleep/away/on another plane of existence for some time now, it'll take time to come up to speed.
You guys are also assuming that the same Horrors seen in the Fourth World would be seen in the Sixth World eventually, which isn't necessarily true. While there were a few cases of overlap of Fourth World Horrors that the dragons knew of in the Sixth World, the majority of the Fourth World Horrors may have been "new" ones (or ones that were minor in the Second World). Who knows what the Horrors do in their home metaplane for these past few thousand years, the familiar ones might not be around again and new ones may have taken their place. And some of the scarier stuff that exists in the Sixth World now might be a precursor of these. You just never know. 
Reminds me of a line from Brainsmasher:
"Do you think I want to be a Kung-fu thug forever? I too have hopes and dreams."
"Do you think I want to be a Kung-fu thug forever? I too have hopes and dreams."
As much as I'd love to contribute, my rememberances of the last thread(s) tell me that this is no longer a debate.
Go Horrors!
Go Humans!
Go Horrors!
Go Humans!
...repeat ad nauseum.
Soooo...can we stick to answering the asked questions, rather than having this battle again? Kplsthx? I'd love you all forever.
Go Horrors!
Go Humans!
Go Horrors!
Go Humans!
...repeat ad nauseum.
Soooo...can we stick to answering the asked questions, rather than having this battle again? Kplsthx? I'd love you all forever.
Okay. Sorry about that. If the urge rises to comment again, I'll just go read the earlier threads.
Heh. Wasn't aimed at you, AE. There have been a couple rehash-y posts coming up. And this one started out so well... 
I'm just here for half-humorous answers to direct questions.
Austere: didn't the daytime talk show line tip you off to the mostly non-serious nature of the answers?
Austere: didn't the daytime talk show line tip you off to the mostly non-serious nature of the answers?
Going to be blunt.
Can someone please tell me why anyone is going to even thinking about putting in these ridiculously idiotically over-the-top monsters that no one, short of a megacorp (and possibly not even them) could possibly handle? What is the point of a GM putting any of these "minor horrors" (and I use that term loosely)? Just to laugh with glee while his PCs get wiped out without the slightest chance of survival or escape? What's the point in that?
Can someone please tell me why anyone is going to even thinking about putting in these ridiculously idiotically over-the-top monsters that no one, short of a megacorp (and possibly not even them) could possibly handle? What is the point of a GM putting any of these "minor horrors" (and I use that term loosely)? Just to laugh with glee while his PCs get wiped out without the slightest chance of survival or escape? What's the point in that?
A subtle hint that the GM wants to play and not run for a while?
Never played Call of Cthulu, eh LinaInverse?
Minor Horrors, or the things in Shadowrun which are equivalent, are excellent fodder to screw with player character heads /without/ killing them outright. It adds elements of surprise, and horror, and other real emotions. /Hinting/ that more of them might exist scares PCs, and the revelation that an unstoppable horde exists fills them with paranoia. 's good stuff.
Really, it's the difference between a serial murderer turning out to be a lone insect spirit and making the players clean out an entire hive. After the first, the mere /prospect/ of the second should give them pause.
Minor Horrors, or the things in Shadowrun which are equivalent, are excellent fodder to screw with player character heads /without/ killing them outright. It adds elements of surprise, and horror, and other real emotions. /Hinting/ that more of them might exist scares PCs, and the revelation that an unstoppable horde exists fills them with paranoia. 's good stuff.
Really, it's the difference between a serial murderer turning out to be a lone insect spirit and making the players clean out an entire hive. After the first, the mere /prospect/ of the second should give them pause.
They make fun backstory?
Of course the PCs should never fight Verjigorm. But escaping from one of Artificer's mazes...fighting with one of Giftbringer's chosen...trying to figure out what in the HELL is going on to all these of Chantrel's friends... These all sound like interesting campaign ideas, to me.
I mean, the Arcology is one of the most awesome campaigns ever. Deus is nothing if not "rediculously overpowered" and yet he's a great overall foil; you just don't ever fight him directly. Same with the good Horror plots, in my opinion.
Of course the PCs should never fight Verjigorm. But escaping from one of Artificer's mazes...fighting with one of Giftbringer's chosen...trying to figure out what in the HELL is going on to all these of Chantrel's friends... These all sound like interesting campaign ideas, to me.
I mean, the Arcology is one of the most awesome campaigns ever. Deus is nothing if not "rediculously overpowered" and yet he's a great overall foil; you just don't ever fight him directly. Same with the good Horror plots, in my opinion.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Really, it's the difference between a serial murderer turning out to be a lone insect spirit and making the players clean out an entire hive. After the first, the mere /prospect/ of the second should give them pause. |
Not the best analogy for Lina, I'm afraid - the runners are tracking down an insect hive right now.
Of course it's not a full blown hive yet either (no mother/queen yet) but that's beside the point.I shudder to think what the actual stats for the greater horrors would be - even minor horrors like Baggi and Gnasher are nasty enough as it is. Still, it tempts my evil mind.
Not a fan of Cthulu or the genre. Seems pointlessly nihilist to me.
I play RPGs because I enjoy playing chars that can make a difference, at least for themselves if not for society as a whole. If I want to play a mindlessly hopeless situation where I'm just a cog in the machine, I'll just concentrate on RL, thank you very much.
The point I have is this: If any of these "minor" (let's not even talk about what defines a "major") shows up, then the PCs are just plain dead. No chance, no escape is going to be possible, don't even bother rolling dice, with the given stats listed there. And game situations like that tick me off. I never resort to them as a GM and I sure as hell don't care for it as a player. What's even more insulting is listening to everyone else's loving rapture for "low powered PCs" from the recent "Too much Karma Pool" and "Low starting chars" threads.
Yes, I understand that a campaign has entities beyond anything any runners can touch (ie, Corps, etc), but for the most part, these entities are not singular with the sole purpose of wiping out the PCs; they are mostly nebulous entities with lots of other ancillary goals, which makes it possible for a group of smart, resourceful PCs to succeed in small goals from time to time (or at least get away if overmatched). That's a far cry from having a singular invincible monster who's solely there to waste the player's time with a futile and hopeless slaughter.
I play RPGs because I enjoy playing chars that can make a difference, at least for themselves if not for society as a whole. If I want to play a mindlessly hopeless situation where I'm just a cog in the machine, I'll just concentrate on RL, thank you very much.
The point I have is this: If any of these "minor" (let's not even talk about what defines a "major") shows up, then the PCs are just plain dead. No chance, no escape is going to be possible, don't even bother rolling dice, with the given stats listed there. And game situations like that tick me off. I never resort to them as a GM and I sure as hell don't care for it as a player. What's even more insulting is listening to everyone else's loving rapture for "low powered PCs" from the recent "Too much Karma Pool" and "Low starting chars" threads.
Yes, I understand that a campaign has entities beyond anything any runners can touch (ie, Corps, etc), but for the most part, these entities are not singular with the sole purpose of wiping out the PCs; they are mostly nebulous entities with lots of other ancillary goals, which makes it possible for a group of smart, resourceful PCs to succeed in small goals from time to time (or at least get away if overmatched). That's a far cry from having a singular invincible monster who's solely there to waste the player's time with a futile and hopeless slaughter.
Here's an evil question...
The horrors cannot currently attack the earth because the mana level is too low.
Mana level comes and goes in cycles, but is connected with the amount of life in an area (hence, magic is mana-poor and Earth, being a single, huge living thing, is mana-rich), (this is ignoring the interpretation that life makes 'pure mana' and not-life creates 'corrupt mana'). Hence, horrors are significantly more likely to attack earth, which is a million tons of life, than an orbital which is only a few hundred pounds of biomass, and a lot of dead metal.
This leads me to two questions:
Would mana levels be higher deeper in the Earth? The idea being that the farther underground you go, the more 'enveloped' you are in life, the more magic there is to harness. This would also go far, far deeper than humans have ever been, which is a measly few miles.
If mana levels are higher deep in the Earth, would this allow horrors to begin coming through deep underground? Would this amount of magic allow them to survive underground even when on the downturn of the mana cycle? They wouldn't be able to get close to the surface, because there's not enough magic and they'd disappear, but they could live in our dimension. Would this give rise to the idea of hell and demons being underground?
Would the same idea be compatible with being deep underwater? Would this allow for the 'Cthulu napping under the South Pole' kinda stories HPL wrote? And could some horrors hibernate, like dragons do?
The horrors cannot currently attack the earth because the mana level is too low.
Mana level comes and goes in cycles, but is connected with the amount of life in an area (hence, magic is mana-poor and Earth, being a single, huge living thing, is mana-rich), (this is ignoring the interpretation that life makes 'pure mana' and not-life creates 'corrupt mana'). Hence, horrors are significantly more likely to attack earth, which is a million tons of life, than an orbital which is only a few hundred pounds of biomass, and a lot of dead metal.
This leads me to two questions:
Would mana levels be higher deeper in the Earth? The idea being that the farther underground you go, the more 'enveloped' you are in life, the more magic there is to harness. This would also go far, far deeper than humans have ever been, which is a measly few miles.
If mana levels are higher deep in the Earth, would this allow horrors to begin coming through deep underground? Would this amount of magic allow them to survive underground even when on the downturn of the mana cycle? They wouldn't be able to get close to the surface, because there's not enough magic and they'd disappear, but they could live in our dimension. Would this give rise to the idea of hell and demons being underground?
Would the same idea be compatible with being deep underwater? Would this allow for the 'Cthulu napping under the South Pole' kinda stories HPL wrote? And could some horrors hibernate, like dragons do?
Lina -
No, a minor horror can still be defeated, just probably not (easily) through combat. After all, even in Lovecraft the heros rarely kill the enemy, but oftentimes they defeat the enemy. They destroy an important artifact or kill their worshippers, preventing the powerful creature from doing whatever it was trying to do. Beyond that, there are examples of magical traps in ED capable of holding a horror indefinitely. If you're going to bring back the monsters, it would make sense that these tools are available as well. So the result is maybe you find yourself in a situation where there's an enemy you simply can't outshoot, but you can outthink and the mission is oriented around coming up with an ingenious plan to stop the horror using powerful tools and ancient magics.
That, and a lot of people just like playing a desperate game against incredible odds. Its just a question of preference.
No, a minor horror can still be defeated, just probably not (easily) through combat. After all, even in Lovecraft the heros rarely kill the enemy, but oftentimes they defeat the enemy. They destroy an important artifact or kill their worshippers, preventing the powerful creature from doing whatever it was trying to do. Beyond that, there are examples of magical traps in ED capable of holding a horror indefinitely. If you're going to bring back the monsters, it would make sense that these tools are available as well. So the result is maybe you find yourself in a situation where there's an enemy you simply can't outshoot, but you can outthink and the mission is oriented around coming up with an ingenious plan to stop the horror using powerful tools and ancient magics.
That, and a lot of people just like playing a desperate game against incredible odds. Its just a question of preference.
Ehhhhh, possible, I suppose.
Remember that horrors can persist in lower mana than they require to come across. So if there was enough for them to come across down deep, there's probably plenty on the surface for them to persist.
But perhaps they're persisting down there since the 4th age. Just enough mana down deep for them to persist, but not even that much up here, yet. Possible.
I'm not sure I like the idea that there's more mana down deep, though. I know the earth is a weird case, in the sense that it's aura is very difficult to pass through and what not, but with so much life on the surface I'd expect less mana underground. Not anything close to the level 10 warp of space, but neither would I expect deep underground to be as mana-rich as power sites in the jungle. It's certainly possible, I mean, the nature of mana is only vaguely understood in the SR world, where it's inarguably real. I can't really say for sure either way how it 'should' work, but it seems a bit off to me.
Remember that horrors can persist in lower mana than they require to come across. So if there was enough for them to come across down deep, there's probably plenty on the surface for them to persist.
But perhaps they're persisting down there since the 4th age. Just enough mana down deep for them to persist, but not even that much up here, yet. Possible.
I'm not sure I like the idea that there's more mana down deep, though. I know the earth is a weird case, in the sense that it's aura is very difficult to pass through and what not, but with so much life on the surface I'd expect less mana underground. Not anything close to the level 10 warp of space, but neither would I expect deep underground to be as mana-rich as power sites in the jungle. It's certainly possible, I mean, the nature of mana is only vaguely understood in the SR world, where it's inarguably real. I can't really say for sure either way how it 'should' work, but it seems a bit off to me.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Lina - No, a minor horror can still be defeated, just probably not (easily) through combat. After all, even in Lovecraft the heros rarely kill the enemy, but oftentimes they defeat the enemy. They destroy an important artifact or kill their worshippers, preventing the powerful creature from doing whatever it was trying to do. Beyond that, there are examples of magical traps in ED capable of holding a horror indefinitely. If you're going to bring back the monsters, it would make sense that these tools are available as well. So the result is maybe you find yourself in a situation where there's an enemy you simply can't outshoot, but you can outthink and the mission is oriented around coming up with an ingenious plan to stop the horror using powerful tools and ancient magics. |
So basically, unless the GM provides you a Deux Ex Machina device, the PCs are screwed.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| That, and a lot of people just like playing a desperate game against incredible odds. Its just a question of preference. |
"Incredible odds" implies survival is at least possible.
The idea of only being able to circumvent Horrors through ancient magical items or fantastic technology doesn't appeal to me, IMO. I always try to give runners multiple ways of killing things so that it's not always the case of requiring a Forlorn Hope to secure the walls.
For instance - what would happen if a Baggi swallowed some C12 + detonator? I doubt even a 20 Body can withstand that from the inside.
There is a reason the Major horrors are not recommended for some campaigns - they truly require certain artifacts or a powerful group of beings to be defeated. I might consider it in my campaign when the Mages are several initiate levels, but never for beginning shadowrunners - that's discouraging and not fun.
For instance - what would happen if a Baggi swallowed some C12 + detonator? I doubt even a 20 Body can withstand that from the inside.
There is a reason the Major horrors are not recommended for some campaigns - they truly require certain artifacts or a powerful group of beings to be defeated. I might consider it in my campaign when the Mages are several initiate levels, but never for beginning shadowrunners - that's discouraging and not fun.
Survival IS possible. Thats why they invented Kid Stealth legs and dwarven party members.
To answer your first question, well it doesn't have to be a deus ex machina tool (personally, I wouldn't even consider that an example of deus ex machina, unless very poorly executed). Its the party members who need to quest to find this item, who need to research how to use it, and who finally need to make a plan to pull it off. The tool may be the easiest way of defeating the horror, but its not the only one, and it won't work all on its own.
Plus there are plenty of other ways of using horrors, and not all minor horrors are all that tough to kill in combat. You find a Native American tribe where they hunt and kill the babies of their neighbors, and commit horrible acts. You find they're being driven by a horror and you need to save (or slaughter) them, or find the horror and reveal it to the world so it can be properly dealt with. You discover lore on horrors past and run a campaign based on exploration. Someone in your party is horror marked and suddenly begins doing odd things. Your missions begin failing or party members are attacked by strange creatures until you figure out the horror mark and somehow erase it.
Horrors are only as limiting as the GM who uses them.
To answer your first question, well it doesn't have to be a deus ex machina tool (personally, I wouldn't even consider that an example of deus ex machina, unless very poorly executed). Its the party members who need to quest to find this item, who need to research how to use it, and who finally need to make a plan to pull it off. The tool may be the easiest way of defeating the horror, but its not the only one, and it won't work all on its own.
Plus there are plenty of other ways of using horrors, and not all minor horrors are all that tough to kill in combat. You find a Native American tribe where they hunt and kill the babies of their neighbors, and commit horrible acts. You find they're being driven by a horror and you need to save (or slaughter) them, or find the horror and reveal it to the world so it can be properly dealt with. You discover lore on horrors past and run a campaign based on exploration. Someone in your party is horror marked and suddenly begins doing odd things. Your missions begin failing or party members are attacked by strange creatures until you figure out the horror mark and somehow erase it.
Horrors are only as limiting as the GM who uses them.
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| For instance - what would happen if a Baggi swallowed some C12 + detonator? I doubt even a 20 Body can withstand that from the inside. |
Let's get this into perspective: 20 Body and 20 points of Armor only makes the critter invulnerable to most small arms. Shadowrunners can easily get their hands on weapons like the Great Dragon ATGM, which will kill a Baggi with ease (10D through the armor), or Assault Cannons with AV rounds, or Anti-Vehicular Rockets/Missiles, any other ATGMs, any MGs firing APDS on FA, not to mention Autocannons firing just about anything.
Obviously if your group has no way of getting their hands on heavy ordnance like that, mundane methods of beating the nastier horrors in combat will be few and far between. If you can't score some form of armor piercing ammunition for a weapon which can crank out a rather high Power (16+), damaging a Baggi will be damn hard. All of the other statted horrors above can be killed/destroyed/disabled/whatever with a Barrett M121 just fine, though.
And I'm not trying to start up the argument again. I'm just saying shooting will work just fine on many horrors/horror constructs, in the right kind of game, as long as the GM doesn't spawn the critter out of nowhere so that the runner group has no chance to prepare itself.
Don't get me wrong nezumi; I appreciate what you're trying to say and based on the scenario you describe, I can see the bare-bones of a story.
But if by "Kid Stealth legs" you mean sneak or run away, I would say that it's not possible given the critter has 3x your Quickness and Intelligence, which means outscoring it in Stealth, Invisibility, and all other conventional methods I know of isn't going to happen (hell, it's even "prettier" than most party members, which is sort of the final insult*). Not sure what you mean by dwarven party members.
*yeah, yeah, Char <> Physical beauty.
But if by "Kid Stealth legs" you mean sneak or run away, I would say that it's not possible given the critter has 3x your Quickness and Intelligence, which means outscoring it in Stealth, Invisibility, and all other conventional methods I know of isn't going to happen (hell, it's even "prettier" than most party members, which is sort of the final insult*). Not sure what you mean by dwarven party members.
*yeah, yeah, Char <> Physical beauty.
Dwarves have a x2 running mod
Yo don't gotta be the fastest, just don't be the slowest.
Yo don't gotta be the fastest, just don't be the slowest.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Let's get this into perspective: 20 Body and 20 points of Armor only makes the critter invulnerable to most small arms. Shadowrunners can easily get their hands on weapons like the Great Dragon ATGM, which will kill a Baggi with ease (10D through the armor), or Assault Cannons with AV rounds, or Anti-Vehicular Rockets/Missiles, any other ATGMs, any MGs firing APDS on FA, not to mention Autocannons firing just about anything. Obviously if your group has no way of getting their hands on heavy ordnance like that, mundane methods of beating the nastier horrors in combat will be few and far between. If you can't score some form of armor piercing ammunition for a weapon which can crank out a rather high Power (16+), damaging a Baggi will be damn hard. All of the other statted horrors above can be killed/destroyed/disabled/whatever with a Barrett M121 just fine, though. And I'm not trying to start up the argument again. I'm just saying shooting will work just fine on many horrors/horror constructs, in the right kind of game, as long as the GM doesn't spawn the critter out of nowhere so that the runner group has no chance to prepare itself. |
"Easily"? Um... Doc...? How about telling the group how long and hard my sammy had to scrounge just to find some bullets for his Barret (nevermind how long and how much it cost me just to score the Barret itself)?
And besides, we've already been warned that even when I pull the Barret out, I risk getting nailed by Lone Star and company for weapon permit violations (though if a Baggi has just shown up, hopefully the Star will have other concerns on its mind besides busting runners for illegal weaponry).
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Dwarves have a x2 running mod Yo don't gotta be the fastest, just don't be the slowest. |
Ah yes, my favorite motto. I should have figured that out for myself. Still, pretty harsh for the poor Dwarf PCs (of which there are 2 in our party...
)
That's where your splat or net guns come into play...
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
| And besides, we've already been warned that even when I pull the Barret out, I risk getting nailed by Lone Star and company for weapon permit violations (though if a Baggi has just shown up, hopefully the Star will have other concerns on its mind besides busting runners for illegal weaponry). |
Bah. Imagine just how illegal that MMG you just got is.
Frankly, using the Barrett would solve most of your horror problems as it is (especially with APDS ammo which you know you have plenty of)Just because it is illegal doesn't mean I'm going to bust you for it if you bring it out. Only if you're stupid and carry it openly through AAA streets. *grin* Or past donut shops.
Anyways, back to the topic. Exactly how would net guns deal with horrors? Or are you talking about netting some helpless bystander and perform a Joe and the Volcano?
I meant for teh 2 dwarves who would find themselves as bait. That x2 modifier isn't so bad when the troll is now glued to the spot and you pass them.
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) | ||
Ah yes, my favorite motto. I should have figured that out for myself. Still, pretty harsh for the poor Dwarf PCs (of which there are 2 in our party... ) |
Sooo thats why there are sooo many dwarf riggers....
Last time I checked, I think I have about 4 boxes of Barret ammo and about the same amount of standard APDS Remington rifle rounds. The latter really isn't going to do much against Mr. Baggi (only Power 9) and even the Barret would probably take about a box worth to bring the Baggi down.
| QUOTE |
| *grin* Or past donut shops. |
"...and don't skimp on the creme filling..."
Do people so quickly forget the mana spikes from Aztlan,the Tir's,tibet,Amazonia, ETC...
The GDD was a big mana spike but not the only one.It wasn't even the only one in the Americans.
The GDD was a big mana spike but not the only one.It wasn't even the only one in the Americans.
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
| How about telling the group how long and hard my sammy had to scrounge just to find some bullets for his Barret (nevermind how long and how much it cost me just to score the Barret itself)? |
All this really depends on the game of game you're in. The Availabilities of the Barrett and its ammunition (14 and 10, respectively) are pretty tough to roll on the Etiquette (Street) check, true enough, but by the rules the gun should be about as easy to acquire as Ruger Thunderbolts, Yamaha Pulsars, Walther MA-2100s, Ares HVARs, HK G38s, APDS ammo or Tailored Pheromones. In several games, gear like this is available, perhaps not easily but you don't have to work that hard to get them.
The ammunition itself should be as common as Raecor Stings, Steyr AUG/CSLs, Incendiary or Glazer ammunition, Tripods or bricks of C-12, none of which is considered "unattainable" in your average, by the book game of SR.
And if you don't have good fixers for that kind of gear or not a good enough face to manage the Avail TNs, just go for the Great Dragon ATGM. At an Avail of 8, anybody should be capable of scoring a few.
Yes, ATGMs will attract a lot of attention from law enforcement, and even the military. If you only bring it out to splat a big-ass horror, however, there should be no trouble. Lone Star should indeed be more interested in just what the fuck was killed by the missile than where the missile came from. And yes, walking down the street with a sniper rifle in hand is generally speaking a very bad idea. Fortunately, it is also a very bad idea for the horror to be walking down the street. You aren't likely to meet it in a place with a significant law enforcement presence.
Or, when said horrows arrives, you wait till it slaughters the few dozen or so waves of LS and then loot the corpses for their sniper ammo as the ATGM's should now be en route to deal with it.
Barrett ammo is 14; I know because I've been trying to score on it for months. None of that other stuff has been seen in our current game besides the APDS ammo which was just as hard to score. This is with a face char, with an Eti 5 and a lvl 2 arms dealer contact. In our last game, we did score on finding an MMG though, so we are making slow progress. It'll likely be mounted on our dwarf rigger's heavy van's turret I think (will be talking about that this weekend).
I suppose the attraction of Horrors - and what really causes fear of them among players - is the fact that they don't _follow_the_rules_. What really makes them scary in ED isn't uber stats or ugly looks. It's the fact that they can do things you can't even dream of, can't stop, and screw with your ability to use those meager powers you _do_ have.
It would be entirely within character in a 6th world horror invasion for a minor-until-now horror to be found that likes the taste of cyberware. Or gains power from radiation. Or possesses bullets. Or has a body made out of bullets. All a horror needs is an internal logic, that may use assumtions totally at odds to how the rest of the world works. That's why no two of the buggers are quite the same.
Sort of like the hound of ?tintalos? in Lovecraft. A beast that hides from sight and resides in corners, because of the way right angles bend the universe. A lot of horrors would be laughably silly, if they weren't so horrible. A runner seeing one for the first time might laugh, until he notices it is carefully eating his freind's brain from the inside out while looking so funny.
It would be entirely within character in a 6th world horror invasion for a minor-until-now horror to be found that likes the taste of cyberware. Or gains power from radiation. Or possesses bullets. Or has a body made out of bullets. All a horror needs is an internal logic, that may use assumtions totally at odds to how the rest of the world works. That's why no two of the buggers are quite the same.
Sort of like the hound of ?tintalos? in Lovecraft. A beast that hides from sight and resides in corners, because of the way right angles bend the universe. A lot of horrors would be laughably silly, if they weren't so horrible. A runner seeing one for the first time might laugh, until he notices it is carefully eating his freind's brain from the inside out while looking so funny.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Fortunately, it is also a very bad idea for the horror to be walking down the street. You aren't likely to meet it in a place with a significant law enforcement presence. |
You know, I think you managed to answer the question "Where does a 400-pound gorilla sleep?" Where does a 20 Body Baggi sleep? If in downtown, it sleeps all over the place, in pieces...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.