the problem with free actions is that they are so wide in effect. some are so simple that they should not realy cost anything to do, others have a real impact on the game and therefor should have atleast a small cost for doing.

as for doing a complex action when you dont have the points for it, no problem as you just use whatever you have left on it (thats how its done in feng shui to, as long as you have atleast 1 left you can do the action even if the cost is more then what you have).

and yes i was thinking that with single shots you cant take two simple actions fireing the same gun in a row. and i guess that recoil carry into the next simple action for burst and semi-auto.

as for mbw, forgot about those giving you extra actions after the fact. but i guess kagetenshi's suggestion is a nice patch for that...

I dont use the system personally, but, in its defense, the chart is actually fairly simple and intuitive. Using a chart to plot when initiative actions occur is not, conceptually, really any worse than using a table of perception test TN modifiers.

Arethusa, you seem to be aiming for the same results I tend to conceptually keep fresh in mind when working on Initiative systems. I like the ideas behind what you've got going.

Ok...I kept working (while medicated which took some persistance) on the system I was trying to work out....
I'm not sure this is quite the final result of what I'm looking for, but...here it goes anyways.

This one is fairly short in explination...but it does require some acceptance of changes that are pretty different than what we are used to in SR systems.
So, bare with that and try to look at it objectively instead of getting hung up on it being so different. (a polite request because I myself had a hard time breaking though standard views to find this one. Thank you Excel spread sheets.)

Stumps Initiative System Version 1,000.3.4.2 (I've lost track)
There are no interrupts
Pass: a simple action.
Complex actions are carried out over the course of two passes.

Roll initiative to find out who goes before who. Do not add Reaction.
Subtract 5 continually until unable to subtract any further to determine each player’s amount of passes.
Throw the Initiative numbers away and keep the amount of passes and the order that the players will act.

These passes reflect the amount of times a player gets to make an active and reactive action.

The player with the lowest amount of passes and the lowest amount of quickness has the option to go first.
If two players have the same amount of passes and the same quickness, they will roll their quickness to determine who goes first. The player that has the least amount of successes against a TN 4 will go first.

Any player may choose to not act on their pass and save their pass for a later time in the cycle of the round. Any passes not used during a round are lost and do not carry over into the next round.

When a player acts aggressively against another player, the targeted player has the option to use one of their passes as a Reactionary pass. Doing this forfeits the pass used as an aggressive pass.

The targeted player will roll their Reaction against a TN equal to the attacking players Quickness. If one success (net) is generated then the player has the option to move defensively without any aggressive actions against the attacking player. If two or more net successes are generated, then the player has the option to attack the player or move defensively before the other player resolves their action.

If a player moves defensively, as defined above, all the moves will simply tally up as modifiers that make it harder for the attacking player to attack.

If a player attacks in reactionary defense, as defined above, then after the normal Stage-down of the damage, the attacking player has to roll a check against the damage taken rolling their Body against a TN as per the chart below. Mages roll their Willpower; instead, against these same TN’s IF they are casting a spell.

Light=2, Medium=4, Serious=6, Deadly=10 (This is for Stun and Physical Damage)

If they fail the check, then they lose the action they were going to do. If they succeed, then they take the damage they took, but still accomplish their action.

ok, the only thing I'm thinking about changing to that above is to add interrupts back into the system in a fitting manner.

Something like saying you are only able to use half of your actions rounded down(or maybe up, but I'm thinking down being that your actions are your passes with it being a subtract 5 instead of subtract 10)

The interupt would allow the faster players to act before a slower character which seems to me to make sense to offer as an option to the faster characters.
This is why I'm thinking of re-applying it.

The reason it wasn't in the original idea was because the idea above works off of reactionary actions, basically saying that the slow guys will make the moves that the fast guys will react off of and the fast guys will be able to react more often and still have non-reactive actions left where the slow guys will be more or less forced to choose more closely which actions will be used for reactives and which ones will be used for non-reactives because unlike the fast guys, they don't really get a chance to see what's happening and make adjustments too often because they are taking so long (in comparison to the fast guys) to pull off one action.

I came up with a house system, not so much to solve issues in the actual system, but just because it was an interesting idea. Basically, everyone rolls Reaction+1d6, but rather than subtacting 10 from their roll each pass, they subtract 10 minus 2 per extra initiative die, down to 0. And they go in order, like SR2. So, to compare...

Street Sam: 12+4d6 (Wired 3)
Combat Decker: 6+3d6 (Synaptic Accel 2)
The Other Guy: 12+1d6 (Cerebral Boosters and Muscle Augmentation)

Let's have them all roll fours.

Standard SR
28: Sam
18: Decker
16: Guy
18: Sam
8: Decker
6: Guy
8: Sam

My System
Sam: 16 (-4 each time)
Decker: 10 (-6 each time)
Guy: 16 (-10 each time)

16: Sam
16: Guy
12: Sam
10: Decker
8: Sam
6: Guy
4: Sam
4: Decker

So, the fast ones still tend to go sooner, but others also get in a fairly early turn. Of course, anyone who gets +5d6 (Boosted + Synap, or MBW) will be all over the place... And nobody in my group uses combat drugs, so it's never come up, but I think they'd just add to the dice rolled.

I have an alternative to D&D d20, too, which I think is pretty realistic, but this is a SR forum, so I'll skip it.

That one has a lot of potential, though it still has the problem of leaving players who don't have much in the way of an Initiative (or in this case, Reaction) boost sitting around twiddling their thumbs while everyone else gets to have fun (and in many cases, with the action already over by the time their turn comes up). I like where the idea is going, though.

I've been watching this thread for a bit, and I'm surprised that nobody's made this comment. So, I'm throwing it out there.

After the first action, assuming combat goes multiple rounds, SR3 and SR2 are the same thing. The Wired Sammy gets multiple consecutive actions either way. Yes, the non-boosted guys get an action in first in SR3 relative to when they would in SR2, but the wired guy gets the same series of consecutive actions while everyone else twiddles their thumbs. The only difference is when the dice are rolled.

SR2 example:
Die Roll---
Sammy
Sammy
Mage (w/ Increased Reaction Focus)
NPC Guards
Sammy
Die Roll---
Sammy
Sammy
Mage (w/ Increased Reaction Focus)
Sammy
NPC Guards
Repeat 'til one side is dead.

SR3 Example:
Die Roll---
Sammy
Mage
NPC Guards
Sammy
Sammy
Die Roll---
Sammy
Mage
NPC Guards
Sammy
Sammy

Once I realized that, the SR3 system bugged me a lot less.

Actually, no, it's not just the first phase. It's every phase until the slower characters run out of phases (usually after the 2nd one). At that point, the faster characters get to continue hammering it out.

The difference, however, is that all of the characters had a chance to influence the outcome of the situation. It wasn't just the faster characters dominating the scenario until the slower characters eventually got their turn in. It was Everybody > Everybody Except Those With Bad Luck or Moderate to Bad Attributes > Boosted Characters Only > Extremely Boosted Characters Only > Insanely Boosted Characters Only.

In other words, the souped-up characters get to clean up the situation, but everyone got to make the mess. In SR2, due to the fact that augmented characters are almost always combat oriented, by the time the slower characters got a chance to act there was nothing to do because the faster characters had finished everything up. In SR3, everybody gets to have a little fun while still allowing the augmented to dominate the situation.

I liked Sahandrian's simple idea...it's not a system fix per say as he said it wasn't, but it is a fun looking idea.

btw, did I lose anyone on the system I posted up there, or was it just that dumb?

Kinda a half-formed response, as its late and I really should be going to bed. But anyhoo...


My ongoing reaction to the 3rd ed initiative rules is kinda the same it was for melee rules. In my opinion, the basic rules do sorta play against a fast person using their quickness and speed to their advantage. At least in a conventional way.

Ive found when using a high init/reaction character, its better for me to be defensive during the first passes of my init, since usually slower stuff only gets to do 1 thing. And if they choose to attack and burn their combat pool up front, they don't have anything left when the rest of my passes come around. On a gut level, it seems a little backwards, me using a highspeed character to pick off guys at the end of the round rather than upfront.

And for melee, regardless of how quick you are, it is impossible under basic rules to dart in, smack someone and dart back out. And it plays against a higher speed character going on the offensive against a slower speed one because its possible the slower speed one will beat you in all your melee attempts, and get to smack you more times than they can otherwise move in a normal round.

You can do all that. It's covered under the Surprise rules.

Also, the melee rules play in the favour of a faster character going on the offensive, because ties go to the attacker.

~J