So all runners wanna do it one time or another it seems and time SR3 rules are tripping me up a bit.

The PC has SL-2 (no ambidexterity edge) and is firing x2 Ares 3 (SL-2, RC1)

What would the penalties be for him weilding and firing each weapon (SA x2) in the same combat phase?

Thanks.

+2 per pistol, recoil applies to both pistols, further penalties for aiming at different targets, smartlinks provide no TN mods.

At Short range and with no recoil comp, firing at one target, TNs would be 6/6 and then 8/8.

~J

In other words, he's racking up impressive TN mods. No Smartlink (which is already a TN of 2 worse than he's used to), a base +2 for using a second weapon, the recoil adds up very very fast, and he takes MORE TN penalties if he tries to do anything more than unload at one guy.

It's really not worth it unless you've got Ambidexterity, lots of recoil comp, and don't rely on targeting systems in the first place. Adepts can pull it off better than most (partially because not relying on smartlinks is part of their gig anyhow, partially because they can have tons of dice to throw at it, partially because they can Center against penalties)... but even then, you're normally going to do a lot better with one gun, taking your time and firing properly.

Just like in real life.

FA-capable SMGs and the suppressive fire rules can work nicely, though.

~J

Only uncompensated recoil is applied to both weapons. On the first Simple Action there is no recoil at all (neither weapon is producing any). On the second shot, each one is absorbing their independant recoil so, again, no recoil is being applied.

Thus the target numbers would be 6/6 and 6/6.

spray and pray...

Actually all that is if you are firing the two handguns at the same time. I have a few character who use two Beretta 300X (a custom gun based on Equilibrium) one loaded with APDS and the other loaded with Glaser. Against armored opponents the APDS rips through like nobodies business, and for the paranormal animals and the ocassional unarmored combatant the Glaser rips them to shreds. Since I never fire the two weapons during the same combat phase I ignore all the penalties. This makes for good tactical thinking on the part of your gunslingers.

Never overlook the bounty that is suppression fire. After he has used up his combat pool any fool can hit him. If he just soaks you can still get lucky, and he takes a wound.

I was just correcting the numbers for his example. Wasn't trying to say you were wrong. Sorry if it came across that way.

Oooh, i just had an evil thought. Using twin Remington Roomsweepers with shot ammo. Double the power, Double the fun.

Grinder: Yes, the +2/+2 penalty is the only one unique to your situation beyond the lack of a targeting bonus for a smartlink or laser sight. Otherwise, all standard modifiers apply. That includes the one for multiple targets.

Do you think there should be a penalty to someone who uses their right hand in pass 1 and their left in pass 2 for instance? Is there no off-handedness penalty?

If you have 6point ambidexterity then there's no penalty. If not, you are using a different skill, off-hand pistols, or you're defauting to that skill from pistols, so there's your penalty.

I am looking for the penalty, not the Target number, so I could apply it as needed.

So for this case, +2/+2 (can't use SL-2) for 4 shots at the same target and +2/+4 for 2 shots at target A and +2/+4 for 2 shots at Target B.

Thanks all, I had it slightly wrong.

There's no such thing as "off hand pistols."

Oh, are offhand skills only for melee weapons? I guess I forgot about that, 'cause it's stupid.
My fault. Sorry to post bad info.

Yup. You just use your normal Pistols skill (or SMG or whatever is applicable) for an off-hand shooting attack. Which, as you mentioned, is stupid (it's easy to get irritated at how differently they treat the modifiers, skills required, and general rules for melee versus ranged combat).

Given that melee and ranged combat are nothing whatsoever like each other, it makes a little tiny bit of sense.

~J

I'm just noting this is the third or fourth time I've had to point out specifically to someone there's no "off hand pistols" or "off hand smgs" skills -- it's an easy assumption for people to make, given the slew of new (well, not new any more) rules about ambidexterity and various two-weapon methods of harming people, in CC.

They read over the Ambidexterity Edge, they see there's a couple pages of new stuff, they see a big skill list that's all "Off Hand This" and "Off Hand That," and people make a fairly easy assumption, I guess.

I mean, if I need a whole new skill to use two knives at once, it's not any less logical to think I'd need a whole new skill to use two pistols at once, too. It's an easy mistake.

It wasn't elegant, but as compared to applying one of the two current sets of Ambidex rules to both types of combat, I think I prefer it.

~J

It's easy to get lost in the text, math, game and forget about what the game is trying hard to immitate.
A form of reality through the medium of being believable.

If you come to a rulling and see what their intintions were, but see a better approach to reach a believable reference to an immitated reality, then by all means...strike into it.


Me personally...I think, at this point anyways without much look into it, that I would have an easier time shooting someone with my left hand at medium range by means of multiple shots than by swinging a sword with my left hand.

That's just me.

Yea, and it sucks in smoke. Does heavy rain effect the lasers also?

Yes, as does Fog, humidity, DarkWall spells, mirrored surfaces, polished chrome and many other things.

well striaght on I would agree as the photons reflected back would just hit the others that follow, but at any angle a substantial part of the laser will be deflected. Still might take damage, but not nearly as much as most objects.

Has anyone tried applying the melee two weapon rules to firearms? As I understand it (and this is all rather new to me, so bear with me) you add half your off-hand skill (remembering that at Ambi-6 and higher you don't need a separate skill) to a single skill check, then increase the power of your attack by half as well if you hit. Now, I like this. It's a simple and elegant rule. And I have to say that I don't see a particular issue in using it with firearms (I probably will, as it goes, make it into a house rule), but I wondered what the rest of you think about it.

If I were going to do anything like, I'd much rather treat the situation as Burst or Full-Auto Fire. Not sure exactly how I'd implement it since I don't mind the current rules all that much, but if I were going for something that fit with the rest of the system, that's where I'd start.

The question that immediately springs to my mind is, why don't melee weapons get the increase? If you get hit by two swords, you get wounded twice...

Maybe the right way to do it for both would be to make the increase +50% power and +1 damage level?

EDIT: that reminds me:

The issue with the weapons being exactly the same was not actually addressed in my last post.

It's not the damage that is effected by them not being the same.

It's the TN's for your chance to hit.

On one weapon you have a laser sight, on the other one you do not.
On one weapon you have a gas vent 3, on the other one you do not.

Under the idea of increasing +50% to the power and increasing the die roll +50% (and increasing the damage rating +1 level as you suggested), you will be rolling one cast of the dice.

One cast of the dice for two weapons that have different TN's to their chance of hit.

That's not going to work, and I can't for-see any system that could be devised to make that function in one roll since the TN to hit will be different for both of them.

Like I said. It's a GREAT idea if you've got two firearms that are set-up the same way. (and potentially if you add that +1 level of increase to the damage)

Nah. If you follow the basic premise of the melee rules, it doesn't really matter what you have in your off-hand. It could be a hold-out or it could be a heavy pistol with EX Explosive rounds; it would still only add 50% of its dice to your other gun. That's it. Nothing else. Just like in melee.

I can see it in my head... A massive troll with a gyromount and extra (articulated) limbs firing a PAC with AV ammo and a Streetline Special simultaneously.

Hey, it's not my idea. It's one of my running beefs about the melee rules.

Melee is a bit different. Rapier-and-dagger fighting was very common and very effective for a long period in history. Wielding such a "supporting" weapon in your off-hand can demonstrably increase your ass-kicking ability.

Although admittedly the melee-version of my above example would be more like a troll wielding a Dikoted Claymore with brass knuckles on the off-hand.

Yeah, but it applies across the board. It doesn't matter if it's a dagger, a brass knuckle, a longsword, a battleaxe, a stun baton, or a ten-foot pole mounted with fifty whirling and dikoted death blades of certain doom... they all provide exactly the same thing to the process: extra dice, and extra dice alone.

Only if you score more 1's than successes on your Whirling Death Blade Stick skill (note that this is a very lame and dull reference to Monofilament Whips due to a complete and total lack of wit on my part). Of course that doesn't matter in melee combat using the two-weapon skills; your off-hand weapon don't mean squat.

Yeah, but Doc...

Doesn't it matter in Firearms, unlike melee combat arms, when you're using two weapons with different TN modifying equipment on them and you're trying to put them both into one roll?

I mean, to me...that just doesn't work.

How is that worse than a reach 2 off-hand weapon and a reach 0 primary weapon?

Yes, that's the point.

The current rules for two firearms take into account the differences between weapons. But if you were to go with a straight-up conversion to the rules for two melee weapons, you lose that characteristic completely. I'm not trying to encourage that change.

Turning it on its head, then, how would you re-do the 2-melee rules? I agree that melee in Shadowrun is not as well thought-out as it might be; the classic example from my point of view being that there is no advantage to attacking at all (I don't deny for one moment that a skilled combatant can turn an attack around; I've studied enough martial arts that it's practically a given. But by the same token I know that the attacker has the advantage because they're guiding the exchange).

The initial problem I run into is that there are so many combinations for how you use two weapons. I would say that in its simplest form, it breaks down into:

1) Attack with both

2) Attack with primary, defend with secondary

3) Defend with primary, attack with secondary

4) Defend with both (full defence).

I think the canon rules are so simplified because Shadowrun makes no differentiation between attack and defence (it boils down to both parties attacking simultaneously). What might make it easier to redo 2-melee would be to introduce two kind of defence action:

1) Defend (parry, block, deflect, whatever). Against the standard base target of 4, modified as normal, but the defender doesn't damage the attacker if they score more successes.

2) Riposte. Against a base target of 5, modified as normal; this version works like a normal Shadowrun melee defence.

Add in the modifiers for using 2 weapons as affected by the Ambidexterity edge, and allow different options to be used by each hand. So you could attack with one hand and defend with the other if you think your opponent is going to riposte; attack with both if you think he's going to defend. As a defender, you could opt to defend with one hand and riposte with the other.

Thoughts?

1) full offense
2&3) regular with different choices of which weapon SR sees as primary
4) full defense

If you allow basic maneuvers/combat options with weapons, that provides all the detail you need for those cases.