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Wireknight
I have up and until this point miraculously failed to consider the utter unfeasability of a telescoping staff, ala the ones possessed by the comic-book characters Gambit and Robin. If such a weapon did exist, it would require smart materials and nanotech engineering to be able to actually survive hitting someone or being hit, when fully extended. Yet, not only has a telescoping staff been introduced to Shadowrun in Cannon Companion, it is remarkably cheap and easy to acquire(Availability 4/48 Hours; 100 nuyen.gif ).

What were they thinking?
Moon-Hawk
They were probably thinking that they needed a decent reach, somewhat concealable melee weapon to make the monowhip seems less broken. biggrin.gif
I dunno. Maybe it's not a feasible design, I'm not a materials engineer, but it's certainly fun.
I do know that a staff doesn't have to be heavy to be dangerous. A lighter staff can be accelerated more quickly and reach higher speeds, so kinetic transferral isn't decreased as much as you might think. You're just getting more damage from speed than from mass.
lorthazar
They might have been thinking of some of the nice tool steel telescoping staves I have seen. No good for thrusting but man they sting when they hit you on a swing
Wireknight
The lightness isn't an issue of damage, so much as it's an issue of the staff crumpling like a straw when you hit someone with it, at the points of articulation. I've got a collapsible baton, and the closest thing I could imagine to a real-and-true collapsible staff would be two collapsible batons that screw together at the base and have some locking mechanism(since the motion to extend one side would retract the other).

And even then, most of the mass would be concentrated in the center even when the weapon was extended, making it much more difficult to employ effectively than a standard staff of equivalent length.
heliocentric
I don't know... I've seen telescoping batons in action and they seem to work pretty well. Telescoping staves probably aren't that weird given the internal logic of your average comic book/ action movie/ RPG.
Herald of Verjigorm
There are some metals that will barely deform even when rather thin. Also, nothing says that it's smooth, it probably is significantly smaller at the ends than at the middle. There may even be some fun chemistry options to increase weapon durability while still allowing it to collapse.

Concealability of 5 is on par with a full sized club, so change your opinion of how small it gets as well.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (lorthazar)
They might have been thinking of some of the nice tool steel telescoping staves I have seen.

I don't suppose you know of a website that sells something like this? I'd love to get a pair and find out for myself.
Wireknight
Like I said, it could be done with advanced materials engineering and/or nanotech... but at its cost/availability, it's obviously a mass-produced, low-overhead weapon. I mean, try to find a collapsible staff, for sale, nowadays. Hiking, disability-related, sure. They exist. Ones for self-defense and martial arts are nonexistent.
Cray74
QUOTE (Wireknight)
Like I said, it could be done with advanced materials engineering and/or nanotech... but at its cost/availability, it's obviously a mass-produced, low-overhead weapon.

I don't think advanced materials would help, or be necessary. It's a matter of making the connection points between telescoping sections long enough, and avoiding thin gage materials. The end result should be heavy, but collapsible.
lorthazar
No such luck friend. The ones I saw were the result of a rather demented friend of mine who was an expert in mettalurgy. I say was becuase not long after he made them he had a terrible car wreck. I think his wife still hs them, btu you'd have better luck surviving an attack from piranha. Although he used to say he got the idea form Babylon 5 so if you can afford to pay for props you might be able to get one.
Kagetenshi
Though that may have more to do with the demand for collapsible staves…

~J
Jason Farlander
Umm... 4 isnt really that low for melee weapons. Hell, a goddamn polearm has an availability of 4. A combat axe has an availability of 3. Dont think of that 4 as "there are dozens of them in every warehouse" and more as "your fixer can find one without too much trouble given a couple of days to make inquiries." I mean, if you have problems with the availabilities in general, you arent alone. The telescoping staff is not an anomaly, though, its pretty consistent.

I do not share your incredulity concerning the actual item.
GaiasWrath8
I have never seen a fully telescoping staff the way they talk about it, but have used a real one. It had three parts and the two outer parts could slide half way into the middle part. You still had a pole that was 2 1/2 feet long but I guess its easyer to hide than a 5 foot staff. The funny part was you could get the two ends to slide out by twirling the staff (of a sharp rotation of the staff). But to get it to go back in you had to hold down two points and push hard. LOL.

It was made from a form of aluminum, much like an aluminum base ball bat. Light weight and fast. used agenst another weapon it would dent and one day was no longer able to retract. But it was fast as hell and hurt like a B***h when you got hit with it. It did take many months for the dents to render it useless, but I guess its the same with most weapons.
Herald of Verjigorm
Since the one in the books collapses to the same concealability of a .5 meter (or more) club, your example is probably very close to the item in the books. If a game were to include weapon degredation, it would be vulnerable, but that isn't in the rules because it's usually just annoying to track.
Wireknight
QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Nov 8 2004, 08:01 PM)
I do not share your incredulity concerning the actual item.

What affirms, to you, the viability of such a weapon?

Oh, and your assessment of availability 4/48 hours is a bit flawed. A character with average Etiquette score, with a single karma reroll, could readily acquire one in sixteen hours. A fixer, who has Etiquette of at least 6, could acquire it in eight. That's not quite "a couple of days" and more like "the end of the workday".

Availability TN# of 4 is the same acquisition difficulty as a katana. If I had the money, I could probably be the proud owner of a quality(not antique, obviously) katana blade within four hours. I can't even locate a telescoping staff, let alone find one for sale and negotiate its purchase.
Kagetenshi
A karma reroll indicates extraordinary luck and/or effort.

~J
mfb
yes. in other words, a guy who's either lucky or trying very hard can acquire a collapsible staff, or katana, in sixteen hours.
Wireknight
Must be effort, though. I've never considered myself lucky.
Herald of Verjigorm
Just think of how much the demand for telescoping staves will increase when people realize that it can help them scare away troublesome spirits. Just extend the staff and start waving it at the nasty materialized spirit, and you may just beat it back, no skill required. Once that demand is noticed, production will increase beyond the "suicidal comic book fan" production level to the "paranoid mundane" production level.
Moon-Hawk
Never underestimate the paranoid mundane market base.
lorthazar
Well how common were Katana's in these United States 60 years ago? Now you get a picture of how thing might be a little different in 2064.
Wireknight
I like to think that if a telescoping staff were a practical possibility, they'd already be for sale, catering to the same market as most low-end katanas sell to, now. If a telescoping staff is such a practical weapon, why can't I, personally, find a single one for sale? It's not like they'll develop some incredible new extradimensional pocket telescoping technology in the next sixty years.
Critias
Yeah. According to most of the artwork, everyone will carry a katana around, sixty years from now.
Shockwave_IIc
I have an extanedable baton (in my jacket pocket right now) it's about 8" in length, 21" when extended Opened with a sharp flick of the wrist.

Telescoping staves would be about 24" in length collaspsed. and would open with a sharp spin (carefull not to catch your shins) using centralfugal(sp) force.

The baton i could pick up by walking in to a shop that opens at 9.30am and pay £24 for. The Stave though i've never seen one in real life, once the sixth wourld comes along i could quite easly see some people getting them for the sole reason the Herald has mentioned and becoming common(ish) cos of that.

I really can't see why theres such a problem.
Jason Farlander
As others have mentioned, the functional problems you see with telescoping staves could be resolved, or at least significantly reduced, with a little bit of intelligent engineering.

Also, as has been mentioned, there are no weapon degradation rules. Your quality katana shouldn't last you forever either, if you regularly engage in sword duels. If you want to enforce your *own* weapon degradation rules, thats fine, and perhaps the telescoping staff would be more prone to breakage than other weapons. However, the melee combat rules in SR are insufficiently precise as to clearly define what is a parry and what is a clean miss, and so you'd probably have to work out a whole new melee combat system as well to keep up with your house rules for weapon degradation. I dont feel that would sufficiently enhance the game for me to bother with it, but more power to you if you come up with a system you like.

In general, I think that, for whatever reasons you want to assume, melee weapons across the board are more popular/common in the 2060s than they are now, and so some uncommon weapons are more readily available than they are today. Ive never seen a combat axe with a spring-loaded thrust point for sale anywhere, myself, but apparently those are just as common as telescoping staves in SR. Hell, look at the ares monosword - that has an availability of 4/24 hours! With the same effort/luck, you could get one of those in just 8 hours! And those dont even exist yet!
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Although he used to say he got the idea form Babylon 5 so if you can afford to pay for props you might be able to get one.

The Babylon 5 extendable staff was actually 2 props and a computer animation. One collapsed, one extended, and the animation that went in between. Even then they often had it extend off-screen (it had a distinct sound that let you know Marcus was about to kick some ass).

That aside, I think a telescoping staff fits in perfectly with the internal logic of the system. That's good enough for me.
Stumps
QUOTE (Wireknight)
I have up and until this point miraculously failed to consider the utter unfeasability of a telescoping staff, ala the ones possessed by the comic-book characters Gambit and Robin. If such a weapon did exist, it would require smart materials and nanotech engineering to be able to actually survive hitting someone or being hit, when fully extended. Yet, not only has a telescoping staff been introduced to Shadowrun in Cannon Companion, it is remarkably cheap and easy to acquire(Availability 4/48 Hours; 100 nuyen.gif ).

What were they thinking?

Is it stated anywhere that it is supposed to last for more than one use?

It being so cheap really only makes me wonder more about that.
Ol' Scratch
I fail to see the logistical problems (beyond supply-and-demand) inherent to an extendable staff built using the same principles as an extendable baton. Weight, size, and thickness would be the only necessary changes, and all three of those characterstics are covered by the stats for a Telescoping Staff. The Telescoping Staff even represents its lackluster performance compared to a solid staff via its Damage Code.

It's not like they don't already make telescoping staves as it is, albeit for walking. There's just no need to create one as a weapon.
psykotisk_overlegen
But as a one-use weapon it would be pretty useless, and rather costly.
Wouldn't 100¥ apiece, for a one use weapon make it more expensive than hand-grenades?
You'll have to remember that 100¥ isn't very cheap for a staff. When compared to gun and blade-prices in SR I would say that the 100¥ would place it among the more moderately priced melee weapons.

As for the feasibility of such a weapon. I would say that todays telescoping technology, combined with 60 years of research and improvement (spurred by an increasing demand from the paranoid mundane wink.gif ) would make this weapon available to the public in general, at least with a liscence or a contact.
Arethusa
It's not supposed to be a one use weapon. Nothing in the text says it doesn't explode with the force of a thousand suns on impact, but that doesn't make the argument any less ridiculous. It's an extendable, somewhat concealable staff that packs a punch but is still not as potent as a solid version of the same. It's not that inconceivable by current standards and while tech progression in SR is often dodgy, 60 years of materials engineering development should make this a non issue. It's really not a big deal.

Also, much love to the B5 fans out there.
Tanka
1) Telescoping staves work. How? Reinforce the joints and they won't bend and become useless. Sure, that makes for staves that have an obvious way of screaming "HEY! I TELESCOPE," but that's something you have to live with.

2) Katana are more "available" because of the influx of the Japanese. A few megacorps here, a few thousand incoming Orientals there, people bring their trades in, including swordsmithing. About everybody carrying one, though... That I find hard to believe.

3) Give me an innocent looking walking staff any day. Pretend to support yourself on it, then when they aren't expecting anything... Right in the face! Sneaky, but it works.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Wireknight)
I like to think that if a telescoping staff were a practical possibility, they'd already be for sale, catering to the same market as most low-end katanas sell to, now. If a telescoping staff is such a practical weapon, why can't I, personally, find a single one for sale? It's not like they'll develop some incredible new extradimensional pocket telescoping technology in the next sixty years.

Because, unlike collapsable batons, there is no market for collapsable staffs, aside from B5 fans, and the odd weapons collecter. Batons and clubs are fairly straightforward to use even untrained. You swing, and hopefully hit something. The collapsable versions also fit neatly in your pocket, handbag, what have you. As far as self defense goes, I'm sure that most people would rather not tie up both their hands with a large stick, that also quite obviously needs training in order to use effectivly.

I also don't see a problem with structural integrity, especially with sixty years of further development. It wouldn't be as dense or as sturdy as a regular staff (shown in the reduced damage code) but so long as you're not trying use it to batter down a steel support column, it shouldn't be a problem.
Cain
QUOTE
If a telescoping staff is such a practical weapon, why can't I, personally, find a single one for sale?

There's practical, and there's practical. It's practical to make such an item, meaning that it'd work as advertised, as others here have pointed out. However, there's no practical need for a telescoping staff. It'd be a bit large to conceal; and besides, you can carry a wooden staff legally for self-defense, if you feel the need. There's no *point* to a telescoping staff as a weapon, nowadays.

John Campbell
QUOTE (tanka)
3) Give me an innocent looking walking staff any day.  Pretend to support yourself on it, then when they aren't expecting anything...  Right in the face!  Sneaky, but it works.

Unfortunately, those are totally illegal in the UCAS. You can't even get a permit to carry a walking staff.
Tal
Say what?
Arethusa
Check the core book. The guy who wrote the stats for the melee weapons deserves to die.

Also, Cain, there are legitimate reasons today. Concealability and portability come to mind, and while they're not likely to be common issues, they're not completely illegitimate. I doubt there'll ever be a huge practical demand for the things, now or 60 years from now, but they're not purely frivolous.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Check the core book. The guy who wrote the stats for the melee weapons deserves to die.

No kidding. I can get a permit to carry a concealed Pred 3, but it is compeletly illegal to own a survival knife. Rambo better ditch the chiv and stick with the guns unless he wants to go back to jail.
Cain
When it comes to concealability and portability, you can carry an escrima stick instead. A telescoping baton is only about 8 inches, while a telescoping staff would be about two feet or more in length. It'd be a bit like trying to conceal a tonfa.

As far as permits go-- anyone can walk with a cane. A six-foot tall cane is a staff, and is legal to carry. (But not conceal, at least in Washington state. Sad but true: it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon of over six feet in my home state.)
Edward
If you believe the legality codes then police don’t carry batons any more. They couldn’t get the permits. Stun batons are likewise completely illegal for anybody to have in fact the only melee weapon you’re actually allowed to carry is your hands and feet and I here there is a bill before congress to have those banned.

Edward
John Campbell
QUOTE (Cain)
As far as permits go-- anyone can walk with a cane. A six-foot tall cane is a staff, and is legal to carry.

Not in the UCAS it's not. It has a legality code of 8-C (note the lack of any 'P' there). Merely owning it can earn you a 150¥ fine, and carrying it around can get you another 650¥ on top of that.

For self-defense, you're better off getting an Enfield AS-7 burst-fire shotgun with a 50-round drum magazine. You can get a permit for that.
Ol' Scratch
With a Legality Code of 8-C for a staff, the most you'll run into is the occasional warning from a beat cop, and that's only if they roll at least one 11 (since the +3 modifier for low enforcement is almost definitely going to be in effect) on their Police Procedures Test. They need to score at least two successes to really press the issue, at which point their likely harrassing you because they think you look suspicious carrying the thing around more than actually carrying the thing around... and even if they do, it's just a minor 150-800 nuyen fee.

QUOTE
For self-defense, you're better off getting an Enfield AS-7 burst-fire shotgun with a 50-round drum magazine. You can get a permit for that.

But you'll get harrassed more often.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Check the core book.  The guy who wrote the stats for the melee weapons deserves to die.
Death? A bit harsh tonight, are we?

I just sent a note to Rob Boyle, suggesting that the legality codes for these items should be corrected. For example, I think a baseball bat should be legal (no permit). And Hunters should be to get a permit for a bow. And a camper or scuba diver should be able to have a knife or survival knife (no permit). Security guards should be able to get permits for stun batons and shock gloves.

Illegal use of such things (armed robbery, assault and battery) is still illegal, even if the items are legal.

Rob will handle it as appropriate. Perhaps the correction will come out in the FAQ before it gets into the Errata. wink.gif
mfb
there need to be seperate ratings for concealed and unconcealed. carrying a concealed blade longer than 4" is, i believe, illegal just about everywhere in the US. wearing it on your hip, not so much.
John Campbell
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
With a Legality Code of 8-C for a staff, the most you'll run into is the occasional warning from a beat cop, and that's only if they roll at least one 11 (since the +3 modifier for low enforcement is almost definitely going to be in effect) on their Police Procedures Test.  They need to score at least two successes to really press the issue, at which point their likely harrassing you because they think you look suspicious carrying the thing around more than actually carrying the thing around... and even if they do, it's just a minor 150-800 nuyen fee.

Well, I'll arbitrarily declare that the -3 modifier for high enforcement is almost definitely going to be in effect, which means they only need to roll a couple of 5s.

But that's just nitpicking about how likely the cops are to actually enforce the law. It does not in any way alter the fact that staves are not legal to carry under the weapons laws that canon outlines. They're, at best, illegal but unlikely to get you more than a stern talking-to. Even then, "unlikely" isn't "impossible" (and rolling two 8s isn't even all that rare), and an 800¥ fine and, presumably, confiscation of the weapon does appear to be rather more than an "occasional warning from a beat cop".

If you'd like to assert that that's stupid, I'll readily agree with that. That doesn't make it false, however.

QUOTE
QUOTE
For self-defense, you're better off getting an Enfield AS-7 burst-fire shotgun with a 50-round drum magazine. You can get a permit for that.

But you'll get harrassed more often.

So show your permit and move on.
Edward
Interesting. The bows arose crossbows and bolts in SR3 are all illegal.

However the arrowheads (including explosive & EX EX) pistol crossbow, repeater crossbow ranger-X bow & arrows from CC can all have a permit.

Most peculiar. Maybe there is some errata I haven’t seen yet.

Edward
DarkShade
QUOTE
If a telescoping staff is such a practical weapon, why can't I, personally, find a single one for sale?

well .. I can buy a katana within an hour or two in spain, but onlt because it is not marketed as a weapon, it sells as decoration, people hang them somewhere, most arent even that sharp..
a telescoping staff is a weapon, other than that it is not decorated, not `nice` and nobody will hang one over their fireplace. as such there is no big market for it, this is why you cant find them for sale.

as far as metallurgy/etc.. do the math, it is a pretty easy to create item.. anyone in their own backyard can create a very sturdy makeshift 50% telescoping staff out of some metal tubes & rods with zilch tech skill required.
With some handyman skills you can create a nice looking one that reduces to about 40-30% of its extended length & is extremely sturdy. just give it proper joints & make it a bit thicker than it would otherwise have to be, & enough weigth at the ends..and this is still something you can do in your own garage...

DS
Mercer
If I may, I would like to sum up the thread thus far:

GM: As your troll stands on the top of the LAV as it barrels through blasted wasteland of the Chicago Toxic Zone, you see the forms countless mutated bug spirits swarming below you. Behind you are toxic spirits, their bodies like bent and torn dumpsters, their arms sewage pipes leaking grey-green waste. Ahead of you, the sun is blocked out by the wingspan of a gigantic western dragon. It is diving directly towards you.

Player: I pull my telescoping staff.

GM: I just can't picture it.

(edited for speilling errars)
Nikoli
Permits also need to be re-addressed. I can't think of a single place int he US where you'd have to have a separate permit for each weapon. In Georgia, where the majority of my experience is limited, you get your carry/conceal permit, you cand carry most pistols, and knives and such concealed with no problems. I had to ask a court clerk about knives, they said that the normal permit covers those even though it's not detailed in the application. One of those obscure things that rarely comes up.
Permits are mor along the lines of Do you want to carry non automatic weapons around legally? Do you want to be able to own a burst or fully automatics weapon, do you want to be able to build or modify weapons for burst fire capability and sell them to others? Do you want to transport (for purposes of sale) across state lines, etc. Not, do you want to own a SPAS-22, do you want to own a Predator, etc.
Stumps
Actually...it is possible to make it a reliable weapon.
I was playing witht the idea in PSP.
Take a look:
Telescoping Staff

The sliders on four sides of every colapsing "tube" act as steel re-enforcements to hold the whole staff together when struck against something.
When it folds up, the "tubes" simply ride the sliders up untill collapsed and the sliders go with them since they are attached to the "tubes".
Lindt
I dont see what the problem is. The make telescopic batons today, and they work RATHER well. However I wont argue that the carry rules and permit rules are broken. Im of the mind that if I can walk into a walmart, and pull out my credit card and buy it, its not just legal, its bloody un-regulated. So bows, arrows, bats, small knives (up to and including those wonkey survivle ones) and chain saws. Oh, and sticks of all sizes. If you wanna book my for draging a 6' hunk of lumber, you REALLY need to get out more.
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