As far as target market - the Honda Viking was specifically marketed to trolls and orks. There is a market, and with the tech available in SR, small production runs are easy and nearly as profitable.

Doesn't Siege have a lock on that title?

~J

Why stop at 10? Kid I know has an 8 gauge he got from his grandfather, made in the good ol' days before 12 became the popular American standard.

[edit]

There's seriously no limit to how ludicrous you make this. Big Troll Guns is essentially a font from which no limit of stupid firearms ideas can flow. So bring on the 8 gauge revolvers and .50 AE SMGs (or .50 Beowulf, as I'm sure Raygun'll jump in and link that if I don't).

impact, there's a pretty big difference between something perfectly legal and commonly-purchased, like motorcycles, and something illegal and rarely-sold, like an assault cannon.

*sigh* yeah.

As long as the gun is gas operated and you are firing in single shot, the recoil shouldn't be too bad, though the AR-15 platform may be a bit too light... The recoil will probably be somewhat 'mushy' (like a gas operated shotgun) as compared to the 'crisp' recoil you get with say... a bolt action rifle. This will very slightly reduce the speed of folloy up shots, but its not something a games rules would notice.

Hey wait...an M16A2 is not a good comparison to a .50.
There is absolutely no kick to an M16A2.
You can fire that thing LITERALLY off of your crotch and not get hurt.

Unless your point was to show how much recoil that .50 has in comparison to a weapon that practically has none.

You're right, the .50 bit was what got me (I freely admit my ignorance of firearms). So in real terms the recoil wouldn't be too bad in single shot. Now, normally I'd assume that (although they market them in autofire models) firing on burst or auto would be a lot worse, but since I cocked up on the original assumption I'll turn it back over to AE and ask for his opinion

Ultra-Light 50AE Sledgehammer - click on the .50AE rifle link at the side. "Our first 50AE Sledgehammers have fired over 1000 rounds at FULL AUTO with NO CLEANING! and NO MALFUNCTIONS! " they say boastfully. ?!?!?!?!?!

That site is obviously all about the über-testosteronal bullshit. They seem to have a hell of a lot to compensate for.

Nice to know I haven't gone competely nuts

Of course get an IGV-IV, shock pads, and a big butch troll (to bring this back on-topic) and who knows?

Hey, hey, away for a few days and the Troll gun debate is on again! My personal feelings on BFTG's is that they should exist and that they shouldn't destroy game balance.

All you have to do is look at what guns trolls use. FMPE trolls only start using guns at shotgun power level and proceed on up, so a .500 Alaskan rimless rifle round used in a SA-pistol frame is not really game destroying. Give trolls their own guns, but limit the ammo. If you say that the .500 calibur troll pistol can be picked up under a hunting licence, make it illegal to own any AP, HE, etc ammo for it as they would never be used for hunting. If the player insists on ADPS for it, make them make it themselves or try to locate avail. 18 ammo.

Trolls get shafted in SR, just look at the amount of source material for elves, humans and orcs. Trolls get ONE item and a few paragraphs in the old Germany Sourcebook. For a race that must customise almost every item they own, there must be at least one company that caters to the projected 278 million trolls living 2064; there isn't yet. From memory there isn't even a picture for Fomorians in CC and in Tir Na Nog the artwork for the Fomorian Wastes has doozies not fomorians.

Besides, a troll with jacked up strength using a Ranger-X bow can dish out more damage at a longer range than some SR sniper rifles.

Kinda what I was thinking.
I don't think it's unbalanced because if you don't give them their own handguns, what else are they going to use?
Big rifles and machine guns or cannons.

Hell, if anything, giving them their own handguns might balance things more.
Pistols can't shoot long range like machineguns can, and they're surely not a cannon, but get close enough and it'll be like they normally are at longer ranges now.

"Did you know armour-piercing rounds are legal for hunting? What is there, some big-ass deer wearing a kevlar vest out there? 'I'm ready for your ass!' "
- Robin Williams

Well I am working on a slight change to the Cannon Companion fire arm creation rules. Since theoretically and caliber can be made into any type of gun I am going to add a seperate part of the creation calling for ammo size. now there is some restrictions on more powerful ammo, but only becuase they could not logically fit in some type of firearms. This will also allow players to customise there guns that already exist.


Example: Player A loves his Are Alpha Combat Gun, but lately he has been forced to snipe at heavily armored people with it. It's not the best weapon for that particular job being 8M. I as GM rule that it uses 5.56N ammo. Well he spend a bunch of cash and some time getting new barrel made, stronger springs, and some stronger fireing mechanisms. Voila he now has a Ares Alpha Combat gun that fires .375H&H Magnum for a whopping 10S.

Example 2: player B needs a real hand cannon. Lately his ruger super warhawk has not been cutting it. So he takes it to his gunsmith and asks for the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world. A few days later he has a completely reworked 5 shot revolver that fires .475 linebaugh for 12S

Example 3: player C wants an easily supressed assault rifle. He isn't worried about power becuase all he wants this for is surprise encounters with unarmored combatants. (He hunts devil rats in his spare time) So he rechambers his Colt M23 for .22 Long Rifle (5M damage).

No, no, the most powerful andgun cartrige in the world is 5.56mm NATO. You just have to have some very good flare compensation if you want to use it without going blind.

http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster-Pistol.htm

Yeah, if you equate a huge muzzle flash with power then the 5.56x45mm NATO is certainly more powerful in a handgun than the .500 S&W.

Firing a 55gr bullet at somewhere around 2500fps out of a 7-1/4" barrel, this doesn't generate more than around 750-800 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. Additionally, since the velocity is so low, FMJ bullets will not fragment and you've basically got .22 UltraMagnum. The only advantage this has is against armored targets, the wound cavity will be very, very small. I'd rather take a .41 Magnum, thank you very much.

Actually, the .475 Linebuagh hold the record for deepest penetration shot on an elepant from a hand gun at 42 inches through it's skull, brain and spinal column. This was the only shot that was fired on the rogue elephant and it was killed instantly. Even some .600NE rounds have not made it that deep. Plus despite all it's power the round still has managable recoil. There are actually revolvers made for it today with 4" barrels that have the same performance as the 7.5" barrel AE mentioned. Now I don't know about you but anything over a 5" barrel is begining to be a rifle. I feel justified in a 12S at heavy pistol ranges becuase his will make a god awful hole.


As for the .375 H&H, I went off the lightest facory loads availabe which are sure not in the 4663 ft lb range. mainly becuase he wants a gun left. Also it will still able to be fired on full automatic. I thought since he wanted only a little extra power that was a good route. Especially since he will be using it with steel core rounds instead of hollow points. Smaller holes in the body due to lack of expansion thus easier to live through. Now if he had told me he want full power rounds it would 14S like any normal Sniper round, And it would cost him so much more. (By the way the modifications eliminated the recoil comp of the gun which i feel is a fair trade on recoil for an ork)

By the way I do feel surprised no one said a thing about the cut down assault rifle. Either everyone thought that so moronic it deserved no mention, did see the merit, or were to blinded by the power guns.

Well considering that the moment caseless ammo becomes a more accepted prostpect I have no doubt you will see caseless versions of all ammo types. That means there could be tons of strange weaponry out there.

Although my favorite for the too ridiculous to let into the campaign has to be the gatling shotgun. I don't mind a FA shotgun but there is a line.

PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL! PULL!

I'd allow it. Assuming realistic mechanics, you can have all the fun you want with a gun that combines all the disadvantages of a heavy, cumbersome, and thoroughly unsubtle minigun with the short range and lack of penetration of a shotgun. If you stick with SR's Hand-of-God shotguns, well, who cares?

I got my hands on a .50 Beowulf last month. The guy I buy a lot of my guns from sells them. He says he's had a couple of guys take them off to Afghanistan, as they supposedly work very well for clearing out caves and other CQB. The big bullets make more of an impression, apparently.

It does kick like a fucking mule, up there with some 12 gauge 3" magnum loads. Easily twice as bad as an M1A, and the ammo costs three times as much. I had enough after one mag (ten rounds). Not a hiccup though, and it's reasonably accurate at 100 meters.

Actually considering the curve of technology I don't imagine it will be long before some figures out how to make a home reloader for caseless ammunition. all you would need to do then is cast your own bullets, get the explosive-binder mix the way you want it and voila caseless ammo. Now considering that the world of SR is from 45 to 60 years away, depending on your start date, it would not be unreasonable to assume someone had done it by then. Witness the ammo fabrication rules in Cannon Companion. Now some politicians would laud this as there would be no way to effectively hide ammon from chemsniffers of trained hounds. Unless you did a lot of work.

Putting it in a Ziploc or three, rinsing the Ziploc and your hands, and putting it in with a case of perfume/spices doesn't seem like too much work to me...

*floats downstream, raises a beer with one hand, waves with the other*

*runs away before the thread blows up from experimentation*

lorthazar, ya killed it. Enjoy the beer Ray