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DrJest
I had an idea for Doc Funk's DIMR campaign, and it led me into this line of thinking. In the various forms of Christian theology, the archangels and angels are assosciated with particular concepts and ideals. Switching back to real life for a moment, I and some others I am aware of practice a form of Christian magic in which we appeal for assistance not to Gods but to the archangels.

Switching back to SR, this strikes me as a valid concept for totemic magic. I know I'm way behind the SOTA, so to speak, so this may have been done, but the sort of thing I am looking at would be:

Michael
Michael is God's Soldier, the warrior who expelled the rebellious Lucifer from Heaven. He is direct and to the point, and does not concern himself with matters of celestial politics. Michael loves the fight, and tends to be hotheaded.

Favoured environments
Anywhere battle is joined.

Advantages
+2 dice for casting Combat spells; +2 dice for conjuring Spirits of Man.

Disadvantages
Although not subject to berserk, followers of Michael are reluctant to leave even a losing battle. A Michaeline must make a Willpower (6) test to leave a fight; the TN is modified down by wound penalties, not increased - Michael is wise enough to know that a dead soldier helps nobody.
Nikoli
I don't see the Domain being balanced.
I would see it more as
"Where honorable battle is joined"
No help in an ambush, but if you challenge a gang leader in the hopes of bringing peace to a city block, he's by your side.
Ol' Scratch
Christian magic is handled, at least somewhat, in the Knights Templar chapter of Threats 2. They're basically hermetics who see their elementals as angels (to really dumb it down). They even talk about Michaelline knights in there.
DrJest
Nikoli: Fair point, domain was the thing giving me the most trouble in that.

Doc: I know that Christian magic has been mentioned before, but has Christian totem magic been specifically described? I'd hate to waste my time on something that has been done, since it would undoubtedly have been done better smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Nope, it's all be done as hermetic.

~J
DrJest
OKay then.

So, addressing the original point, do you feel that SR-style totemic magic fits into the Christian magical situation? (I'm too biased, since that's what I practice myself)
Backgammon
I like it. I also see Xtian magic as more hermetic, but you could have totemic followers. Might be a but of a heresy, though.

For disadvantages, I would not lower the TN with wound penalties. Keep it at 6, regardless. Xtians are real big on self-sacrifice.
Ol' Scratch
Totemic Christian magic would be more appropriate for religious zealots. Southern Baptists, Snake Handlers, "Fire and Brimstone" Preachers, and so on and so forth. It's very doubtful if any Angelican, Orthodox, or Catholic types would be shamanic in nature, doubly so if they were trained by the church. They would follow a very strict and regimental hermetic tradition.

A hermetic mage, possibly even aspected towards or specialized in Elemental Fire (for game effects), with the Combat Monster flaw would be most appropriate for your concept.
Nikoli
I dunno, prayer to various saints and angels, that sounds like Totemic moreso than Hermetic to me
Ol' Scratch
What's prayer have to do with anything? That's just an Incantation geas. Religion does not equal Shamanic magic.
Backgammon
If I remember my xtian teachings, you pray to saints to implore jesus (or God, I forget) for you, since no one listens to you, puny mortal. They act as a PR layer between you and God, since you can't talk to god yourself.

But going the extra step and "idolizing" a saint, asking for HIS help specifically is like saying you don't need God? I dunno, a Xtian would probably know more about this stuff. Smells like heresy to me.
Nikoli
Well, not to get off on a tangent but the very idea that you need an intermediary between you and God/Jesus is heretical. They call it the New Covenant for a reason. But that's beside the point.

And while Shamanisnm in SR is not a religion, it's not like you are asking the Saint to do it for you, it's still the same methodology. You ask the Saint, the Saint asks God, God delivers, provided you are not found naughty in his sight and your enemies snuff it.
Ol' Scratch
Black Magicians call upon dark powers as part of their rituals and spellcasting, too... but they're still Hermetic.
Nikoli
Fair enough. I just think there is room for either in the Church.
Like Gnosticism and Catholicism... oh wait, that doesn't work either...
bugger
Catsnightmare
Look at the Idols of MitS. There are some descriptions in the Paths of Magic section of MitS (pages 20-somthing IIRC) that tell of shamanic christian magicians who follow the the various Idols in the form of the Patron Saints.
lspahn72
Really though, there is ALOT of difference in Christian figures between differnt types of Faith....Being raise catholic (no comments or flames please), you could have lot of totems assocaited with Saints, Angles, Holy Mother, and the Trinity. With other areas of christianity you may want to have different hands of faces of god because, and this is just my expereince, they tend to be only Jesus oriented and not really inclinded to go with old test stuff... Such as: the Healing Hand, Love, the creator....

Nikoli
I can only see one reason why the Designers of the game went with Hermetic as opposed to Totemic in the game mechanics:
Totemic borders on religion, even in vague notions.
Most folks (think lowest common denominator here) don't like how "their" God would have been depicted. The Hermitic tradition nicely remove the religion aspect and leave it as 'fluff' instead of mechanic
Garland
I kind of looked at the Idol totems as being decent fits for various saints or aspects of God. In the early christian church, the reverence of saints made it easier for converting pagans to get into the religion.

Like Funk says, religion doesn't have to equal shamanism. But it can.
littlesean
Would your religious beliefs affect how your Magic manifested? What if you are a recent convert and the whole mythology of your chosen religous path was still vague, how much control would you have over what you became?

For example, if you are born and raised Catholic, and accept it wholeheartedly, would you manifest your power as a religous flavored hermetic? What if you don't? What if the your power is available to you through emthods that The Church frowns upon?

However, what if you were sort of apathetic about religion most of your life, but when you were 16, Mormon missionaries knoecked on your door and you became one. Would you then express your magic along those lines?

(On an aside, if you are familiar with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, how do you think they would express?)

Garland
Depends. If you want to use that theory, then if one is a scriptural scholar or really into the philosophy and theology of the Church, then hermetic would be a fine fit.

On the other hand, if it was the cosmology of saints and angels that was what appealed the person Awakening to magic, or maybe they felt a special kinship with one saint, or angel or whatever, then an idol shaman might be more appropriate. Mexican Catholics often accord special emphasis on the Virgin Mary, so one might become a Dove shaman, or Great Mother shaman or something.
Nikoli
Well said Garland
Garland
Guess that Catholic education was good for something, then.

Also had a weird thought about an Erzulie houngan who was obsessed with Mary Magdalen. Didn't work as well since Erzulie is a specific entity, rather than a totemic concept.
JaronK
I'd say combine the rules for hermetics and shamen. Christian mages, I'd say, would be studying books for their magic, but it would be Christian books... old bibles, works by ancient priests, that sort of thing. So in that way, they'd be like hermetics. And they might use lots of conjuring materials... holy water, crosses, and the like. But I could certainly see them getting totem modifiers like a shaman, based on which saint their branch of Christianity followed most closely.

JaronK
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Garland)
Guess that Catholic education was good for something, then.

Also had a weird thought about an Erzulie houngan who was obsessed with Mary Magdalen. Didn't work as well since Erzulie is a specific entity, rather than a totemic concept.

Why? Given the remarkable amount of Catholicism infused into the bastard religions created by mixing Catholic, native, and African slave beliefs it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
audun
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Nope, it's all be done as hermetic.

That isn't totally correct. I believe there are some references in MiTS that Christian Idols is possibility. Trad witches (SOTA2064) are often Christian, and SOTA 2064 also mentions shamanistic Christians. There are no direct rules for them though.
As for playing shamanistic Christians I belive it would be more probable that they follow Saints than Archangels, maybe as one of the Idols in MiTS. Many saints are little more than pagan gods adapted by Christianity (I hope I can say that without insulting anyone. It's a folkloristic approach).
New Age-like "spiritual" approaches to shamanistic Christian magic would also most likely be something one would see in the Sixth World.

Synner is probably one to elaborate on this, if reads this thread.
Thistledown
I've seen some web pages that dealt with Christian totems before, but I'm away from the computer that their marked on until sunday. If this thread is still going then, I'll put them up.
Wounded Ronin
A psycho Souther preacher might be a shaman. Because they scream.
Ol' Scratch
Note that I never said that Christian Shamanism wasn't possible, it's just that for the concept Dr. Jest put up, it wasn't appropriate. He was taken in and schooled in magic by the Church. The only thing remotely shamanistic is that he had an "invisible friend" which he manifested as the archangel Michael; but that's pretty common for all types of magicians when they first start to manifest their abilities.
Garland
@ Dr. Funk

My apologies for putting words in your mouth. You point things out so forcefully that in this case I felt I had to make a counterpoint.

@ audun

We're all adults here, no prob. The thing about saints was kind of what I was trying to say; it's a polytheistic trait in a monotheistic religion, something that Roman and Greek or whatever converts could identify with. So yeah, a lot of the idols can be worked in with no prob.

@WR

Agreed! The stereotypical snake-handling, ranting preacher is going to have a "personal relationship with his God", above and beyond that of the Good Book. Probably a nice fire-and-brimstone totem like Sky Father or something.

On the other hand, you can have a ranting preacher who feels the Good Book is the final Word, and the mystic secrets it imparts to him (through endless study) would seem to imply a more hermetic-style magic.
DrJest
Wow, I step out to kung fu for a couple of hours and the thread goes to two pages...

Doc, fair play in respect of the concept. Hermeticism seems to be the order of the day for the organised religions anyway.

Various others: I was thinking more in terms of angels than saints personally, since in the qabbalistic tradition the angels - and particularly the archangels - are all associated with specific concepts. To go off on a small tangent, an idea I thrashed out with a bunch of friends with variously differing belief systems is that all the gods, archangels, elementals etc are just different aspects of the same entities; so that what I call the archangel Michael, a follower of the Greek pantheon would call Athena, a Celtic Druid would call... probably Lugh (Celtic mythos isn't my strong point), an Egyptian pantheon might call Horus, etc.
Garland
I think SOTA 2064 spelled out Celtic totems (the idols they correspond to). I think Lugh was the Wild Huntsman. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I only read that part once.
Joe Outside
QUOTE (littlesean)
(On an aside, if you are familiar with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, how do you think they would express?)

The closest in-game equivalent to what we mormons refer to as the priesthood would be psionics or hermeticism, largely sorcery aspected. We may believe in spirits, we don't really deal with them. smile.gif
ES_Riddle
I'm in the process of creating a Catholic physad whose patron saint is St. Michael. I'm just going with the Dragonslayer idol bonuses, since it seems appropriate to me.

IIRC (I don't have a MitS handy), the description of some of the idols includes a mention that some of them are followed by Christians. I think a lot of the idols and some of the totems (Dove for example) can fit in for the awakened Christian who feels a strong bond for a particular saint, angel, or aspect of God. You should just do what the Church did to convert pagans; choose an idol that resembles the saint and run with it.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Garland)
Mexican Catholics often accord special emphasis on the Virgin Mary, so one might become a Dove shaman, or Great Mother shaman or something.

Eesh. Much as strict Catholicism tries to make Mary both Maiden and Mother (with a distinct absence of Crone, IIRC), any sort of fertility symbol is at least partially heretical.

~J
Siege
I like the idea - it follows the symbolism nicely and for all practical purposes, Saints tend to fulfill the same role.

Of course, Devil Worshippers take on a whole new level of creepy...

-Siege
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (ES_Riddle @ Nov 24 2004, 05:05 PM)
I'm in the process of creating a Catholic physad whose patron saint is St. Michael. I'm just going with the Dragonslayer idol bonuses, since it seems appropriate to me.

Wouldn't St. George, the dragonslayer, be a more analogous saint to attribute the Dragonslayer Idol's attributes to?

Just asking.

QUOTE (Siege)
Of course, Devil Worshippers take on a whole new level of creepy...

Uh... Why?

I'm all for badmouthing any religion put in front of me, but why them in particular?
Siege
Care to take a stab at their Shamanic masks?

-Siege
ES_Riddle
I think that St. Michael, who defeats THE Dragon and casts him from heaven is a fine fit. St. George could work also. The beauty of it is that you can have a dozen different saints that are all slightly different takes on the same idol.

QUOTE (Siege)
Devil Worshippers take on a whole new level of creepy


The Adversary is pretty much designed to represent modern Satanism, IMO.
Johnny Reb
QUOTE (Siege)
Care to take a stab at their Shamanic masks?

-Siege

Well, for shamantic masks on a Christian Shaman sort, I'd imagine wreathes of glame, halo formation, stigmata, wings of fire, etc. All the basic Hollywoodisms cranked up a bit.

Like all magics, I'd imagine there to be the Hermetic-Shaman divide as well. Marking the Catholic-style as mroe Hermetic while the Southern style was more Shamanatic would make sense.

-- Johnny Reb
Siege
QUOTE (Johnny Reb)
QUOTE (Siege @ Nov 24 2004, 11:30 PM)
Care to take a stab at their Shamanic masks?

-Siege

Well, for shamantic masks on a Christian Shaman sort, I'd imagine wreathes of glame, halo formation, stigmata, wings of fire, etc. All the basic Hollywoodisms cranked up a bit.

Like all magics, I'd imagine there to be the Hermetic-Shaman divide as well. Marking the Catholic-style as mroe Hermetic while the Southern style was more Shamanatic would make sense.

-- Johnny Reb

Yes, but as to why I thought applying shaman rules to Devil Worshippers would make them an extra notch of creepy -> care to guess what their Shamanic masks will look like?

-Siege
Synner
Since I'm way too busy to go over a lot the same ground again, anyone really interested can find some relevant comments on this issue here (the last time this discussion came up).

One important point several people have already made, and I'd like to underline, is there is an immense difference between the way Catholic, Orthodox, Reformist Protestant and Evangelical Protestant Christians all see magic and more importantly how they believe it could possibly work within their distinct cosmologies.

SOTA64 has some ideas but there's a lot more to it than would ever fit there. If you have the Grimoires, Awakenings and Threats 2 on hand to cross-reference things will begin to add up.

SR Canon assumes the Catholic Church (and many Reformist Protestant denominations') doctrine allows for a form of "sanitized" Hermetic magic called Theurgy (based on RL precedents btw). Catholic Theurgy undoubtedly allows for the "Cult of the Saints and Archangels" (an aspect of the Catholic religious practice) although it is suggested this be addressed as per the Archangelic patrons in the Templars chapter of Threats 2 rather than as idols (just the choice of word is bound to cause problems). However, in the other thread (above) I've tried to explain some of the inherent difficulties of being a Catholic shaman, especially one in the Church (mostly to do with mindset, doctrinal complications and the catch 22 regarding the nature of one's gift). Also, as I mention therein, this doesn't rule out the possibility and I for one think there'll be a few shamans in the ranks of the Sylvestrines and Vigilia Evangelica (though not in the far stricter and fanatical New Templars).

Note however that other Christian denominations allow for a much more ecstatic and personal relation with God than the Catholic faith and would obvious allow much more freedom to integrate Christian shamans.
Kanada Ten
Voodoo is essentially the result of Christian Shamanism. I'd look to it and Santeria as the basis of such devotion.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Siege)
Yes, but as to why I thought applying shaman rules to Devil Worshippers would make them an extra notch of creepy -> care to guess what their Shamanic masks will look like?

-Siege

A beautiful smiling face with a sinister gleam in its eye? An aura of promising power with a whisper of dark prices? I don't think you'd get much into the sinister demonic look thing unless the shaman is unleashing some horrific combat spell or elemental manipulation. I think it is even creepier that way.
Johnny Reb
QUOTE (Siege)
Yes, but as to why I thought applying shaman rules to Devil Worshippers would make them an extra notch of creepy -> care to guess what their Shamanic masks will look like?

-Siege

Ah! Well, that wasn't my point, but, it'd be easy to glom onto.

Basicly, teh inherent view of Satanism, regardless of that truth in a mundane world, would come to teh for in a magical world where perception often equals truth.

In short, they'd be the baby-sacrificing parodies that 99% of the population worries about, due to how mana flows actualize. A handful of 'True Satanists' would assuredly exist, but they'd have to be closeted. If teh CAS put a bounty on Voodoo, Satanists wouldn't stand a chance. smile.gif

Their masks would project traditional devil iconography ... horns, tail, black flames, sinister pointy teeth, wings, and so on.

They'd probably be listed as Toxic Shamans, really. Devout Christian Shamans who went mad and Fell into the embrace of teh Devil.

Again, that'd be the majority, while those who followed a 'Traditional Satanist' view would be rather horked at being lumped in with the bastards.

-- Johnny Reb
Kanada Ten
The CAS put a bounty on magicians that raise the dead, not anything else. The Adversary is the idol for a Satanist Shaman.

[edit] And a Toxic Christian Shaman is not a Satanist: they are Jesus as the avenger; the lion come to destroy the sinners without mercy, and make the world pure again.
Crimsondude 2.0
So, basically, the bastard Jesus in the last Left Behind novel...

As for the Satanists... Wow, John.... Wow.
Glyph
The interesting thing about Christian magicians is that you can have friction between the hermetic and shamanic approaches. The big difference isn't style - it's that hermetic Christians see magic and their religion as two separate things. They might consider their magical ability a gift from God, just like having superior athletic ability or an aptitude for math would be. But they don't think their magic comes from praying.

They might even be a bit appalled at shamanic Christians, watching someone summon spirits of man and calling them "angels", waving crosses around, etc. It would seem deluded at best, maybe even blasphemous. Shamanic Christians, on the other hand, would see hermetic Christians as either denying the true source of their powers, or, even worse, rejecting it to use "diabolical" powers instead. Lots of roleplaying opportunities...
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph)
The interesting thing about Christian magicians is that you can have friction between the hermetic and shamanic approaches. The big difference isn't style - it's that hermetic Christians see magic and their religion as two separate things. They might consider their magical ability a gift from God, just like having superior athletic ability or an aptitude for math would be. But they don't think their magic comes from praying.

They might even be a bit appalled at shamanic Christians, watching someone summon spirits of man and calling them "angels", waving crosses around, etc. It would seem deluded at best, maybe even blasphemous. Shamanic Christians, on the other hand, would see hermetic Christians as either denying the true source of their powers, or, even worse, rejecting it to use "diabolical" powers instead. Lots of roleplaying opportunities...

Actually, they do think that magic comes from praying. Check out the link, Synner provided. I had put the apporpriate quotes there.
Glyph
Okay, reading the link, where Synner talks about Theurgy, and it sounds like what I was saying... that "the Gift is a God-given talent like any other and that magic is a neutral force to be manipulated for good or for evil depending on intent." And he goes on to demonstrate how the Templars know that what they are using is hermetic magic. Yes, they say an invocation before using magic, but that's piety, not their view of how magic works.


Also, I was taking in more general terms, about a hermetic magician who happens to be a Christian versus someone who thinks that he is performing miracles and summoning angels.
toturi
The following quotes are taken from Threats 2 p108.

QUOTE
The conjuration of angels are much more involved.


QUOTE
These angels are believed to be sent by the patron Archangel to aid his servents,..


QUOTE
Those few Templars skilled and pious enough to invoke a Great Form angel are blessed with the appearance of what is believed to be one of the personal servitors of the patron Archangel.

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