Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: ruthenium
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
equinox
i just wanted to ask what the deal is with ruthenium. i think its availability is too low for its uses and suggests that the ruthenium is common. also, when making a fullsuit with it, what problems or penalties should the player experience.
Kagetenshi
Well, it's probably going to get pretty hot in there. Also difficult to actually do anything with a full covering.

~J
ES_Riddle
Our group restricts you to form-fitting body armor or the second skin line when you are wearing a sneak suit.
Cray74
QUOTE (equinox @ Nov 30 2004, 06:15 PM)
i just wanted to ask what the deal is with ruthenium.  i think its availability is too low for its uses and suggests that the ruthenium is common.  also, when making a fullsuit with it, what problems or penalties should the player experience.


The stuff is made into personal computer screens. A relatively low availability is reasonable IMO.

Problems that PCs in full suits should experience:

*Pressure sensors
*Ultrasound
*Claymore tripwires (perfect for after hours use in zero-zero megacorp facilities and Stuffer Shacks in the Barrens)
*Drivers in large vehicles running over the invisible PC
BitBasher
QUOTE (equinox)
i just wanted to ask what the deal is with ruthenium. i think its availability is too low for its uses and suggests that the ruthenium is common. also, when making a fullsuit with it, what problems or penalties should the player experience.

It's available, but expensive, that alone inherintly limits it.
Backgammon
Reuthenium is fairly cheap. Scanners that replicate you environement to make you invisible, are not.

Reuthenium suits are vulnerable to damage (like climbing over a fence, or getting shot) and in no way protect against Thermal or Ultrasound detection. They're only good for normal vision. You can combine and make a thermo dampener/reuthenium suit, but you're looking at major nuyen.

Also, don't forget you can't wear anything on the outside, and anything you carry is gonna give you away. That means no guns or tools in your hands, and your weapons are *under* your suit (some sort of quick access latch could be devised, but you'd still lose time).

My high-level campaing players have access to a full reuthenium/thermal dampener suit, as well as 2 reuthenium blankets. They often use them in their plans, but they are merely *part* of the plan, not *the* plan. Overall, nothing game breaking.
Cray74
QUOTE (Backgammon)
My high-level campaing players have access to a full reuthenium/thermal dampener suit, as well as 2 reuthenium blankets. They often use them in their plans, but they are merely *part* of the plan, not *the* plan. Overall, nothing game breaking.


And with the proliferation of thermo/ultrasound sensors (thanks to all those runners who loooove ruthenium), my PCs find them mostly useful for sneaking into women's locker rooms. Not game breaking, just a sign of patheticness. wink.gif
mfb
one problem the player will experience is the fact that his weapons probably aren't coated in ruthenium.
Seraph
first off...for a sniper...rethenium is just insanely overpowering...while there have been some good points about it being easily damaged and such...and in an enclosed area it might not be that handy...but if you're in an enclosed area...there probably isnt any need for a sniper anyway...but in an outdoor area...even though you may still be able to see the weapon...the chances of seeing the weapon are much more miniscule than if the person were blatantly standing there behind it. now...mind you...a good sniper really shouldn't need rethenium...but...with it...it just makes him all the more deadlier...any ideas on how to handle a permanently invisible sniper?
Cray74
It's a problem with any distant sniper. Some guy hiding amongst rooftop air conditioning piping 500m away is not going to be very visible, with or without ruthenium.

Otherwise, see other points in this thread. Ruthenium isn't the be-all, end-all invisibility system. Ultrasound, thermographics, paint grenades, suppressive fire, or just taking cover (especially indoors/in a different room) reduce or moot the sniper's advantages.
equinox
someone remind me how suppressive fire game mechanics work again. that sounds like a plan.
Herald of Verjigorm
You put a lot of bullets in a small area, everyone in that area dodges, if they do not dodge all bullets in their square meter, they resist one bullet staged up by skill with few modifiers on that staging.
The Jopp
Shadowrunner sneaks inside a building and wears a full coverage Ruthenium suit

Security guard hear a suspicious sound and out of sheer nervousness blasts off a round of buckshot down the corridor, and the runner is only five meters away

Shadowrunner manages to stage down damage, but realizes that his invisibility suit is now torn to shreds, and the nervous guard is about to fire again.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (Seraph)
first off...for a sniper...rethenium is just insanely overpowering...while there have been some good points about it being easily damaged and such...and in an enclosed area it might not be that handy...but if you're in an enclosed area...there probably isnt any need for a sniper anyway...but in an outdoor area...even though you may still be able to see the weapon...the chances of seeing the weapon are much more miniscule than if the person were blatantly standing there behind it. now...mind you...a good sniper really shouldn't need rethenium...but...with it...it just makes him all the more deadlier...any ideas on how to handle a permanently invisible sniper?

First off, when you're talking about snipers in position, you're already talking about people who are invisible. Distance+stealth 6 (or higher)+appropriate camoflauge (legal and available for less than 1000 ), means that folk aren't going to see them unless they know where to look already. There is nothing blatant about a sniper standing behind his rifle (odds are he isn't even standing).
Sandoval Smith
Although ruthenium itself is cheap, the processors that make it work are not. That's the big balancing factor. The other is fragility. Once it starts taking damage, your stealth suit is screwed. Also, anything set up to detect the even bigger problem of invisible intruders will easily handle ruthenium.

Snipers in ruthenium shouldn't be an issue, since if they're doing their job, they should be nearly undetectable from a distance anyway.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Also, anything set up to detect the even bigger problem of invisible intruders will easily handle ruthenium.

Unless it focuses on detecting the magical activity, but yeah.

~J
Ol' Scratch
The problem with ruthenium with a full suite of sensors (+12 TN modifier) is that it's superior to invisibility in many ways. Hell, it even beats total darkness (a +8 TN modifier)!

If it stopped at a TN of +8, it would just be really good camouflage. It's the fact that it can beat that by 50% that "breaks" it (nevermind the weird limitations such as you not being able to move very fast, but it being able to handle other things moving fast -- I still haven't figured that one out).
Kagetenshi
Easy. It includes a bright yellow sign saying "NOTHING TO SEE HERE, PLEASE MOVE ALONG".

~J
Fix-it
I'd rather just have an S.E.P. field generator.
Stumps
Doc:
Just trying to help make sense of some of it here...
If you take a 8mm video camera and run with it on a glide track it will skip some frames of capture because of the digitizing, but if a car passes at 60mph it can capture it just fine.

It's an inherent problem with digital video relay.
If you move it, it smears. If something moves in front of it, it's fine.
It seems dumb, but 6 years of multimedia and you really see the reason to have a high price camera.

The +12 is incredibly dumb though.
It should be +6 (or for good fun, +7TN grinbig.gif )
Gilthanis
Logically the stuff only makes what is covered with it "invisible", but since it gets really lame having characters with dermal sheathing and rheuthenium running arround naked. Yeah that is the trade off for getting it, but we just house rule it that it takes care of your clothes as well. (I know before everyone busts out the logic we just did this to keep from having a nudist team. And yes that would happen.) I agree that it is really bad ass, but so is improved invisibility with oh say the easy to get 8+ successes for any good mage. Especially at a low force. It is kinda easy to chease that (unless errata changed things arround again.) and most people with a 6 intelligence would never see unless astrally perceiving. I think this is a street sams way to bring more balance to non-magic users. After all, SR3 has pretty much completely leaned to the magic side for almost everything.
Stumps
the best ruth-suit is actually completely simple.
A pancho.
You can hide things under it and you can lay it over you while in position.

Sure, you run the risk of triping on the extra long fabric that you've taken to cover your feet, and there's always the chance that your feet may be seen and maybe a bit of your leg, but so what...you've got a REAL easy way to hide your gun without trying to get all fancy with it and it's more diverse than the normal suit.
Blaze
One of my PCs went the whole hog and coated his M22 with ruthenium, meaning the only parts of him normally visible were the scope lenses and the inside of the weapon's muzzle. There is, however, a cheap and cheerful way around the stuff- though it replicates an image around the user that renders him invisible, chances are he's still going to cast a shadow. Floodlighting facing out towards the perimeter wall and underbarrel flashlights can really hamper your wannabe ghost.

-JH.
Shockwave_IIc
Would looking via a reflective service work? Think the walkway in the last crusade, looked at from the wrong angel made it easier to spot.
DrJest
Ah, fond memories of my old Heavy Security Armour done over with ruthenium plus all the trimmings smile.gif Damned expensive, but fun.
toturi
Shouldn't that be Military Armour with rutherium? Shoot me! My rutherium's invulnerable!
Bossemanden
Well the Ruthenium is on the outside of your Mil-spec armour. Therefore it enjoys no protection from the armour. That would be my ruling anyways.
Stumps
As should everyones rulling.

Ruth is not armor. Otherwise it would have an armor rating.
Ruth does not work it's concealment of the character while being worn under their garments.

That would make absolutely no sense.
I would be the first customer in line for Ruthenium full-body underwear from Hanes if that were the case!
toturi
Ahhh, but it isn't rutherium on the armour. But rutherium Mil spec armour.
Stumps
You can take the Ruth off of the armor.

It's just fiberoptic fabric.
We have proto-types of this very technology even today. (all be it not complete)

It's just Ruth over the armor, really.
Even if it's called Ruth armor.
It's still just Ruth over the armor.

Ruth cannot be under anything.
By it's very design, it must be ontop of what it cloaks.
Cray74
QUOTE (toturi)
Ahhh, but it isn't rutherium on the armour. But rutherium Mil spec armour.

A coat of paint on top of tank armor still gets scratched by bullets, nevermind that it's armor paint.

Ruthenium's no different. It's a layer of plastic and electronics on top of the armor, not protected by the armor.
toturi
The rutherium could be interwoven with whatever hardened material that is used to make Mil Spec armour.

Actually, it needn't be interwoven. Since Canon doesn't say how strong rutherium polymers are (apart that they are very durable), you could assume that they are as tough as the material they are covering.
Cray74
QUOTE (toturi)
The rutherium could be interwoven with whatever hardened material that is used to make Mil Spec armour.

As I recall from earlier SR editions (Shadowtech?), ruthenium integrated into armor halved the armor's ballistic and impact ratings.
Ol' Scratch
That was then, this is now. The 2060+ model of ruthenium doesn't degrade armor any longer. Technically, it doesn't even degrade with armor if you're using those rules, since the only thing those rules cover are armor ratings (of which ruthenium polymers have none).
Stumps
ok, so it's interwoven.
It's still not under it.
Cray74
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
That was then, this is now. The 2060+ model of ruthenium doesn't degrade armor any longer. Technically, it doesn't even degrade with armor if you're using those rules, since the only thing those rules cover are armor ratings (of which ruthenium polymers have none).

Well, then the next solution is to pass out paintball weapons to the security guards... wink.gif
DarkShade
I dont really understand the logic with ruthenium.. I mean I can see the image projection etc etc.. but logic says it should be a little LESS good than invisible.. not BETTER than.... think predator suit... +6 or so tops.. how they came up with +12 I dont know... does it means if I CLOSE my eyes in order to be in darkness I can hit the guy better?

<note: in my games its houseruled to just a small +2 to tn to spot you, ever since 2nd ed, but cumulative with camo, but I had no idea it was so hard in canon sr3...& the tech required for a proper suit always seemed way above what sr has..>

DS

Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
does it means if I CLOSE my eyes in order to be in darkness I can hit the guy better?

Sadly, it does.
DarkShade
QUOTE (Cray74)

Well, then the next solution is to pass out paintball weapons to the security guards... wink.gif

a friend of mine in RL paintball made a homemade paint grenade.. this should work really well against any such suit.. as should dust or any kind of dirt.. also something I am not clear about, how do you SEE while wearing such a seamless suit? your eyes obviously dont show & there are no gaps so the system can pick up all the light that falls onto you..

DS
Botch
Ruthenium shades?

With ruthenium on both sides.
DrJest
I think I agree with Darkshade - logic dictates that the suit cannot be more efficient than total invisibility and probably slightly less so. I'd say +6 is a decent enough level.
lorthazar
Actually you are forgetting the minds ability to gloss over what fits in an environment. The reason you can get a higher TN modifier in a stealth suit than total darkness is because when you are in the dark your eyesight is out of the equation. Your ears and nose are trying to be your eyes so you pay attention to them. In broad daylight you might not notice the ruthenium suit if it was a meter away. Why? Simple while your eyes are open they take priority in the processing of stimuli. Everything is distant second.
toturi
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Actually you are forgetting the minds ability to gloss over what fits in an environement. The reason you can get a higher TN modifier in astealth suit than total darkness is becuase when you are in the dark your eyesight is out of the equation. Your ears and nose are trying to be your eyes so you paly attention to them. In broaddaylight you might not notice the ruthenium suit if it was a meter away. Why? Simple while your eyes are open they take priority in the processing of stimuli. Everything is distant second.

As an addition to Lothazar's explanation, I would like to add that perhaps this is one case where technology is far better than magic.
Tarantula
Something I just thought of. Everyone knows the invisible door debate, and can you see through it etc... Heres a similar problem.

There is a troll in a ruthenium suit standing in a doorway completely blocking it, the suit is turned on. A mage walks by, looks at the open door, and sees someone on the other side, but not the troll. Can the mage cast at the new person, or can they not, since the ruthenium digitally processes the image and then colors to look like it. So they're actually doing the equivilant of trying to cast at a person who they can see on a tv.
Ol' Scratch
Since it's digital rather than optical, no. The spell will fail automatically, much to the magician's chagrin.
DarkShade
you betcha.. the whole idea of completely recording every photon that falls on you then recreating the image electronically from every possible viewing angle & then resending this info on the other side of the suit without any noticeable jitter and more than perfect picture quality sending once again from every possible viewing angle just boggles the mind... oh and with no noticeable processor or power source even!, compensating for movements and even for creases in the suit!
.. it just doesnt rhime with other sr tech levels..

any case, back to the point of the previous few posts, about `hidden in plain sight`being harder to SPOT than NOT VISIBLE AT ALL... good try but no cigar. whether you can hear the target or not is not relevant here, as spotting a DEAD <and thus, rather silent> elf in complete darkness is still by the book easier than spotting a tap dancing ruthenium coated troll.... who is singing My Way..
imho ruthenium needs some revising..or more details..
DS
Ol' Scratch
Just as a side note, the power source is a gelpack that only lasts a couple hours or so if memory serves, and the scanners include the processors (hence their hefty pricetag).
Lantzer
I've always limited the TN mods for ruthemnium to +8 for detection. It's an advanced form of adaptive camoflage, not a SEP field. And it does nothing for thermo. And you still cast shadows.

There's a limit to how effective it can be - Hiding in a ruthenium smock in a barren hallway is silly. As someone approaches, they'd notice you - one of the advantages of binocular vision.

The funniest thing I've seen is the guy who takes the ruthenium dermal sheathing. "So, you plan on going on all runs stark, hairless, naked with no gear? And as an aside, is it uncomfortable to have sheathing on your dangly bits?"

I agree that the poncho is a good form of ruthenium smock.
lorthazar
if he's tap dancing and singing the suit makes little difference as now you know you are looking for someone, duh. But if all you heard was a brief rustle you'd more than likely pass it off as a breeze or animal movement. Whenyou look over the area you'd see nothing out of the ordinary and go back to whatever crossword puzzle you were doing. I mean, really, do you investigate every single noise near you? If you do you must be a nervous wreck by now. As for the dead elf in the middle of the foor in the dark, of course it's easier to find him. The correct term is tripping over him.
BitBasher
I just drop this thing to 6 conceal max and get on with life, although even before that it's only really ever been used by NPC's.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012