Cray74
Dec 6 2004, 02:23 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
You mean like the price for WinZIP's equivalence? That's 1,800 nuyen for the priviledge to compress a Rating 3 datasoft, or 14,400 nuyen if you want to zip up a Rating 6 datasoft. Or anything else that's Rating 3/6 respectively. |
Analogy doesn't work. Compress only has the bizarrely priced utility. Besides Read/Write, there's rating 1, complexity 1 word processors covered under Applications.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 6 2004, 02:34 AM
Explain to me why that analogy doesn't work (which I chose simply because it was the easiest one I could find to compare to modern software).
Rationalize to me how a piece of software -- with your only other available option being a piece of cyberware -- that compresses any amount of data (not just utilities) up to rating 3 should cost 1,800 nuyen. Or how it's illegal, or limited only to deckers, or any of the other hubabaloo that's been mentioned in this thread.
All Utilities are not illegal or decker-only. The way one uses them is, and even then there are some that simply aren't even then (hence Compressor).
Want another example? If you want a good connection via a cellular link, you have to pay out the ass, too, because that requires a Utility. Ditto for all the other links.
Hell. According to some people here, system operations are illegal because that's the only way most Operational Utilities are illegal. That's *all* most of them do -- aid you in performing system operations.
Kagetenshi
Dec 6 2004, 03:01 AM
Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed.
Though I do have to note that I have no good answer to Compressor either. *Digs out the books again*
~J
Jason Farlander
Dec 6 2004, 03:03 AM
*shrugs* Perhaps the file formats used in the 2060's are very, very difficult to compress.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 6 2004, 03:13 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed. |
You can edit files just fine, so why do you need a word processor Application? The rules and fluff text all revolve around deckers. The designers have been consistently clueless when it comes to writing them on just about every level. This just happens to be one of those areas.
And while no tests may be required, you'll still likely want to make one if you want to do it quickly.
Eyeless Blond
Dec 6 2004, 04:17 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 5 2004, 09:01 PM) | Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed. |
You can edit files just fine, so why do you need a word processor Application? The rules and fluff text all revolve around deckers. The designers have been consistently clueless when it comes to writing them on just about every level. This just happens to be one of those areas.
And while no tests may be required, you'll still likely want to make one if you want to do it quickly.
|
This isn't a really fair argument either. How does a Read/Write utility, which from the operations it is in charge of seems to be more of a really hackish FTP program, affect how easily or quickly you manipulate files? Indeed, in the 2060s I'd expect most of the editing software like Notepad and the like to be included for free in any standard software bundle, much as it is in most computers today. The only time you'd need to buy something like a Read/Write utility is if you want to do something outside the norm, like break into and copy/overwrite someone else's files. After all, that is all the Read/Write utility does, by Canon; any other operations you associate with it are only a result of your preconceived notions (resulting IMO from a misinterpretation of flavor text; see below)
Just because you don't make a living from decking doesn't mean you wouldn't ever want to break into someone else's computer for some reason. That, IMO, is what the "non-decker users" is referring to: amateurs rather than professionals. A CD-burning program isn't only useful for people who want to make and sell illegal copies of their CD collection, you know.
QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
*shrugs* Perhaps the file formats used in the 2060's are very, very difficult to compress. |
This is possibly a very good point. See, one big pradigm we're dealing with in the world of computer science today is the idea of programs as data. All programs currently in existence can be represented in the same way as the data they manipulate, giving us some powerful abilities which work well with the current binary-based computers. In the 2060s there is every possiblility that computer science has gone in the opposite direction; that now it is data that is being represented as a proceedure. Now, how is this possible, and what does it mean? As I am currently without my master's degree in 2060s computing technology I have no idea. But, it's pretty safe to say that all our current ideas of what makes sense and what does not in terms of computing have all gone out the window, and it's possible this includes the idea of compression.
John Campbell
Dec 6 2004, 04:46 AM
The rules for Compressor are totally wacked, anyway. I don't expect it to realistically reflect the differences in compressibility of different types of data, but it'd be nice if it made some small amount of sense, and I can't come up with a single rational explanation for the Rating of the compression program limiting the uncompressed size of the data you can compress. Degree of compression, sure, speed, yeah, but uncompressed size? buhhhhhh......
The only way I can think of to bring that into shouting distance of sanity is to say that the limit is just the limit on how much data it can compress in a single Complex Action, and allow it to take multiple Complex Actions to compress larger files.
hyzmarca
Dec 6 2004, 07:43 AM
Considering the cost of everything else in Shadowrun, I say it is just inflation.
Eyeless Blond
Dec 6 2004, 08:05 AM
Except guns, some vehicles, and lower-class housing. Guns in particular are curiously cheap.
Eyeless Blond
Dec 6 2004, 08:27 AM
QUOTE (John Campbell) |
The rules for Compressor are totally wacked, anyway. I don't expect it to realistically reflect the differences in compressibility of different types of data, but it'd be nice if it made some small amount of sense, and I can't come up with a single rational explanation for the Rating of the compression program limiting the uncompressed size of the data you can compress. Degree of compression, sure, speed, yeah, but uncompressed size? buhhhhhh......
The only way I can think of to bring that into shouting distance of sanity is to say that the limit is just the limit on how much data it can compress in a single Complex Action, and allow it to take multiple Complex Actions to compress larger files. |
See that's what I'm saying, that maybe it's not the system itself that's wrong, but the assumptions you are bringing into it. See, right now you're assuming that data in SR is analogous to data in the real world. Specifically, you are making the assumption that data is analytic, capable of being broken down into component parts, when in fact SR seems to be presenting data as synthetic, which is rather the opposite. Consider, for example, that datasofts have ratings, rather than a continuom of values for size. This implies a measure of quantization to data that simply does not exist in the current computer paradigm.
The unit of measure for program size--the megapulse--as well as the nature of the storage medium hints at a possible reason for this: data, as well as everything else, may well be stored as a proceedure. It makes sense, actually: it explains why data is saved as a "data
soft," implying software, as well as other things like why software makes up so large a percentage of the hardware costs. Now, why is this the case; why is everything being stored in proceedure form rather than in binary? Who knows; if we understood that our technology would jump up by 50 years.

One thing is clear though; because software is incapable of being broken down without losing the integrity of the encapsulated data, compression algorithms become much more complicated, and may well require the odd steps outlined. This technology is 60 years beyond us; who knows what it might be capable of, or *not* capable of?
Jason Farlander
Dec 6 2004, 08:34 AM
So yeah... elementals... I like them. Theyre pricey, but, aside from foci, what else are you spending your money on as a mage? Compared to expendable foci theyre an absolute *steal* Oh, and dont forget to use your karma reroll(s) when youre conjuring them, since the karma will (generally) refresh long before it becomes necessary again. The fact that you can have multiple elementals on call and that you need not worry about drain (for the most part) when summoning them makes them well worth the cost, IMO.
Club
Dec 6 2004, 08:40 AM
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Dec 5 2004, 06:10 PM) |
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 5 2004, 09:01 PM) | Both are, but the creation rules at least tend to use more reasonable base costs.
14,400-nuyen for a simple Read/Write 6 utility? Please. |
Hey, Doc, care to guess what some new stainless bolts are going to cost when I get done designing them, if you factor in the engineering costs? And the costs for buying the specialty stainless steel and setting up the tooling for a tiny run of bolts?
I can entirely believe that speciality hacking software goes for 14,400 nuyen. You're not selling a lot of copies of something that cost a lot of weeks of writing effort.
|
Depends on the size of the bolt and the type of stainless, and the shape the stock comes in.
For the non-metalworker, carbide inserts (Disposable cutting tool) cost $15 Canadian OR MORE a peice. An hour's labor is $70+.
If the bolts are less than an inch, I could see up up $30 a bolt. One foot, high tolerance bolts to an odd size could be WELL over a hundred.
Joe Outside
Dec 6 2004, 08:45 AM
As another point to Doc Funk's side, it's worth nothing that utilities don't have a legality rating unless they're installed on cyberdecks, which do. At least, not according to anything I could find in SR3.
Jason Farlander
Dec 6 2004, 08:51 AM
Right, they dont have a legality rating, which means they dont have a "legal" designation either, so that observation doesnt really serve either viewpoint. If illegal, perhaps they lack a legality code because theres no way an LS officer could glance at an optical chip containing Sleaze 6 and say "oh hey, thats an illegal program!" As such, the normal game mechanic for determining if LS hassles you doesnt apply.
Edit: Dammit... here I was, trying desperately to grasp for the original topic, and I have to go ahead and contribute to the massive derailing of that topic *again.* Oh well...
ES_Riddle
Dec 6 2004, 10:14 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
Hell. According to some people here, system operations are illegal because that's the only way most Operational Utilities are illegal. That's *all* most of them do -- aid you in performing system operations. |
System operations on a system to which you don't have authorized access are going to be illegal most of the time. The only time they wouldn't be would be if you are with the NSA or similar organization, if you are trying to counter deck against a compromised system that you've been hired to fix, or some other situation in which the legal authorization to use the system is not the same as the computer designating you as an "authorized user."
If you need to roll a system operation test, the odds are you are doing something illegal.
On another note, I do have to say that the compress function being a utility rather than an application seems pretty goofy to me, too.
And elementals are a pretty good investment if you can get your team to agree that they each get a cut of the pay and that you'll send it to them
Crusher Bob
Dec 6 2004, 11:32 AM
There's nothing 'inherently' illegal about breaking into computer systems, you can set your own computer system up and then attempt to break into it all day. You will need to be careful about your legal terms of use (such as the clauses about reverse engineering), but if you avoid stuff like that, it's legal.
Niolations of the wiretap act, wire fraud, theft, etc are what you are going to be charged with when breaking into other people's computers.
While some software is 'monitored' by law enforcement, it's quite often legal, in and of itself.
apple
Dec 6 2004, 11:48 AM
You forget that you need several programs for data/information-research (using the rules in Matrix 3) => research is a legal application and needs programs with high rating.
And the programming rules in M3 AFAIK state that normal, yet complex programs like games, OS, office etc may have both a multiplier and a high programm rating.
In the end: this discussion is a wonderful example for the basic flaws in the SR-Matrix-system. Illegal Compressor? Pardon me? Illegal Black Hammer? Sure.
SYL
mintcar
Dec 6 2004, 01:13 PM
I can only say that for me, the utilities must be highly sophisticated hacking programs for it to make sense. Deckers pay anything for utilities because they are written by better deckers and allow them to do more wiz stuff when decking. No company would ever sell a utility that could help deckers get into their systems. They would develop it for their security deckers, and it might spread illigaly from there. Or you could buy it legaly at the same outrageous prices if you have a company of your own. SOTA software aimed at a corporate market is very highly priced in reality. Anyway, the pirate community has obviously become less anti-capitalistic in the shadowrun era. A decker that gets a hold of a hot utility wont spread it around for nothing. Maybe thatīs the way it is today as well, if you look at the top notch hackers, I dunno.
Dissonance
Dec 6 2004, 04:14 PM
Besides, we all know that no company would
ever, ever, Eeeeeeever would think of charging an arm and a leg for software.
O'course, I don't know what that last one does, but one has to think that considering a skill at 8 is 'world class'... Something tells me that the kinds of software bits that deckers tend to use are the kinds of code-y bits that don't really have much use in the public sector. Sure, I _could_ buy the Adobe Server Protecting Hacker Sodomizer software package for five or more digits, but it'd be overkill.
As for cyberterminals? Spoiled corp kid e-penis.
But I'm sleep-deprived, often confused, and flu-addled. I don't know a damn thing, and it shows.
EDIT: Of course, if you don't want to pay a bungload of money for software, just start with a Rating 6 programming suite with a self-programming option, a coding PC with absurd amounts of memory, about 20 doses of Long Haul, a Sleep Regulator, and program in Renraku Teng. That'll turn your 800 days of programming time into... 6.
lorthazar
Dec 6 2004, 05:59 PM
Illegal compressor? I can see it after all only an il;legal intruder would ever really need it.
As for the Read/Write program. Have you ever nopticed that any file you open gets your E fingerprints all over it. That any time you modify a file it updates and lets everyone know when you last fudged with it. Well a Read/Write program avoids all that by making it look like A Nobody ahs touched it. B. the last time it was accessed has not changed, and C. provides the proper authetication codes.
besides this one program can help a decker makes loads of nuyen in a quick hurry. Or haven't any of you thought of ordering a shipment of Ares' best then decking accounting so it is paid.
draco aardvark
Dec 6 2004, 10:04 PM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
If you like the more hand-on aproach, try channeling a high force great-form elemental while under the influance of Spirit Strength. Your stat bonuses will make the initiate adept and the wired Sammy cry. |
What is "Spirit Strength"?
Also, elementals are useful because you can have a big group of them (assuming you've got the Charisma). Call them to you, astrally project and you're totally safe from bullets and explosions - just do scouting while your elementals beat guards senseless.
(*cracks whip* back on topic people!)
hyzmarca
Dec 6 2004, 11:01 PM
Spirit Strength is an Awaken Compound found in Man & Machine. It gives its user all stat boosting critter powers, including movement. For a character with 6 essence this means +6 to all primary stats, +3d6 to inititive and possibly +12 to reaction depending on how the GM applies the bonuses. Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 7 2004, 12:16 AM
But disregard the consequences of its use. Most people who recommend it would prefer you not to see that part.
hyzmarca
Dec 7 2004, 12:31 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
But disregard the consequences of its use. Most people who recommend it would prefer you not to see that part. |
The trick is timing and having a place to sleep it off. 7-12 hours of all 1s aren't that bad if you're asleep throughout that period. I lasts for at least 7 hours, provided essence of 6, and, unlike mundane drugs, it is not addictive.
Jason Farlander
Dec 7 2004, 12:33 AM
Honestly, the negative aftereffects arent *that* bad. Your physical attributes are all reduced to 1 for 6-12 hours. Ok, you go home (or to a safehouse) and sleep it off. If you dont expect to have that opportunity, then you should probably not be taking the drug. As far as I can tell the substance isnt even addictive, making it a far superior alternative to pretty much any other combat drug.
Edit: right... 7-12. Yay functionally simultaneous and nearly identical posting!
Ol' Scratch
Dec 7 2004, 12:38 AM
It also lacks a price, Availability, legality, and every other stat other than its actual Game Effects. But whatever, do what you will in your games. If you don't mind being all but a total cripple and an easy target for up to twelve hours, that's your perogative.
Jason Farlander
Dec 7 2004, 12:50 AM
Oh, of course its not as if it would be an easy thing to acquire - getting even a single dose would take a good deal of IC research and RP. Its not illegal for the same reasons that a lot of modern, 'shady' substances aren't technically illegal - theyre not enough of a problem or sufficiently common to warrant legislation. And Dr. F. is right, if you're in a situation where 7 hours wont be enough to get the job done and get back to a safehouse, taking the drug would be a rather poor plan.
Note, however, that a mage with several ELEMENTALS on call would remain rather far from an easy target, even as something of a cripple.
draco aardvark
Dec 7 2004, 02:54 AM
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
Spirit Strength is an Awaken Compound found in Man & Machine. It gives its user all stat boosting critter powers, including movement. For a character with 6 essence this means +6 to all primary stats, +3d6 to inititive and possibly +12 to reaction depending on how the GM applies the bonuses. Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time. |
ah, thanks! I completly passed over those when I was reading through M&M
QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time. |
Gah! What's channeling? Here I thought I knew magic. hmmph, guess they were right when they said "Chummer, I can write a book on what you
don't know."
Jason Farlander
Dec 7 2004, 03:18 AM
Channeling is a metamagic technique that appears in Target: Awakened Lands. It allows you to merge with an elemental or spirit that owes you services, adding its force to your physical attributes and granting you access to its powers (except engulf and materialization). Channeling a great form spirit or elemental grants you immunity to normal weapons. In all cases, channeling uses up all remaining services owed.
Ol' Scratch
Dec 7 2004, 03:20 AM
Leaves you with a nasty case of Deadly drain afterwards, too. (Why does nobody every include the consequences...)
Fortune
Dec 7 2004, 03:22 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
Why does nobody every include the consequences... |
Wishful thinking?
Kagetenshi
Dec 7 2004, 03:23 AM
Because if people considered the consequences, there wouldn't be so many Shadowrunners

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
Dec 7 2004, 03:24 AM
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
(Why does nobody ever include the consequences...)  |
In this case, it'd probably be because if there are still any threats immediately after the channeling ends, you'll be at 10 boxes on at least one condition monitor soon enough with or without the drain.
Jason Farlander
Dec 7 2004, 03:25 AM
*shrugs* I also didnt mention the conjuring test at (forcex2)-grade. I figured that I'd leave the mechanics of its use out of my description, and just describe what it actually does.
hyzmarca
Dec 7 2004, 07:19 AM
Hmmmm.... Is the Immunity to Normal Weapons power based on the spirit's force or the channeler's essence? I always assumed it to be the former but if it is the later the power is suffiiciently broken to make chanelling force 1 great forms a great alternative to the armor spell.....or milspec armor.....
Jason Farlander
Dec 7 2004, 07:31 AM
Spirit's Force.
Club
Dec 8 2004, 09:29 AM
If you are in the wilderness, shaman have it all over mages for combat conjuring.
The spirits of man, however, have stats so much lower than an elemental's that it becomes worthwhile to be a mage in the city if you want to crush mundanes.
Yes, elementals are expensive, but less so than a rigger's more delicate toys (MicroWalkers and miniBlimps). Both have their uses. Having an elemental on backup can be useful for a last ditch thing. Cheaper than replacing a limb or hospital time
Mr.Cato
Dec 8 2004, 12:18 PM
yeah I like elementals.
The biggest use for me and my group is, sustaining spells. (the kind that bruns a point of force pr. day)
Before a difficult run I have elementals sustain: imp. invisiblity, armor, or anything else my fellow runners would like to have. They normally pay the cost and are happy for the services.
There is offcourse the danger of having them dispelled or running into a barrier or astral security... Depends on the run.
Also usefull in the middle of a run when the team just needs to escape.
by the way... can they decide when "their" elemental drops the spell? .. I mean you can give your friends some control over the elemental (I think I remember)..
..and can they leave the range.. or can they perform it as an "remote service"?
apple
Dec 8 2004, 01:33 PM
QUOTE (Club) |
The spirits of man, however, have stats so much lower than an elemental's that it becomes worthwhile to be a mage in the city if you want to crush mundanes.
|
Not really ... spirits of man has confusion ... the ultimate mancrusher-critterpower.
SYL
ES_Riddle
Dec 8 2004, 04:55 PM
QUOTE (Mr.Cato) |
by the way... can they decide when "their" elemental drops the spell? .. I mean you can give your friends some control over the elemental (I think I remember)..
..and can they leave the range.. or can they perform it as an "remote service"? |
Unless your buddy is awakened, you'll have to remain the elemental's controller for it to sustain spells. Making it do the long version of sustaining costs the rest of its services, and binding your elemental to another person costs one service. Since your mundane sammies aren't going to be casting improved aim on themselves, you'll have to keep control of it. If your buddy is a sorcerer or shaman, however, you can bind it to her (costs one service) and then she can have it sustain an appropriate spell that she casts.
Remote services can be any service the elemental would normally be able to perform, so you could easily say to it "sustain [insert spell of appropriate category] on [insert buddy's name] as a remote service." The only problem with that is that nobody controls that elemental anymore and you'll actually have to roll dice to control, kill, or banish it to make it quit sustaining the spell.
Bigity
Dec 8 2004, 05:05 PM
Hm, I thought a spirit could be told to "obey" other PCs, performing services through voice commands. An elemental sustaining a spell has to be within visual range anyway, correct?
So the runner could just say, "Knock it off", and it's done. I doubt any spirit, who generally just want to return to the metaplanes, would sit there and refuse to stop performing a service.
ES_Riddle
Dec 8 2004, 06:51 PM
QUOTE (Bigity) |
Hm, I thought a spirit could be told to "obey" other PCs, performing services through voice commands. An elemental sustaining a spell has to be within visual range anyway, correct?
So the runner could just say, "Knock it off", and it's done. I doubt any spirit, who generally just want to return to the metaplanes, would sit there and refuse to stop performing a service. |
Putting someone else in control of your elemental counts as a service. The way the "sustain a spell" service is worded suggests that only the controler can cast the spell to be sustained, and the [Force] days version of sustaining burns up any services you had remaining, so you won't be able to hand it over to someone else.
Hmm...maybe if you had 3 services you could do the sustain [force] combat turns, hand over control, and then that person could have the elemental switch over to sustain [force] days. I don't know how that works in regards to a spirit only being able to do one service at a time, though.
nezumi
Jan 19 2007, 06:50 PM
Alright, I'm going to resurrect a dead thread, since I couldn't find the answer here, but it should be here.
I'm currently run a game using *ONLY* the SR3 main manual. No MitS. A character is conjuring an elemental. I seemed to recollect that every conjuring uses up all of the supplies bought, whether successful or not. However, reading the book, it says:
QUOTE |
If the Conjuring Test is successful, the elemental materializes bla bla bla... If there are no successes, no elemental appears, but all materials purchased for the summoning are used up. |
p. 186
Now reading this, it makes me think that the materials are *ONLY* used up if he tries to conjure and fails. If he conjures successfully, the materials are still available for the next use (excepting, presumably, the big pile of clay or water or whatever).
Thoughts?
Herald of Verjigorm
Jan 19 2007, 07:12 PM
QUOTE (p. 186 "Summoning Elementals" Paragraph 2) |
If the Conjuring Test is successful, the conjuring material is used up and the elemental materializes before the summoner. |
nezumi
Jan 19 2007, 07:34 PM
Mine doesn't say that. Hm... Ah, in the errata. Should have remembered to check there first. Thank you!