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Drain Brain
Hiya...

Just wanted a quick bit of opined input...

I'm working a Calico M950 for a Pilot's PDW rig and wanted somebody's input on the matter...

It's a hefty piece in terms of size and weight (that'll be the 50 round helical mag, huh?) and is chambered for 9 mil para... but since I know sweet FA about firearms (and am working from my well-thumbed '96 copy of Jane's GUNS recognition guide), I thought I'd ask: 6L, 6M (since it's technically a pistol) or something higher, since it's pretty much a shortened SA version of the M-960 with almost no other difference?

Also, if anyone has any practical experience of this (or a similar) firearm, exactly how big and cumbersome (and inconvenient) is the 100 round mag?

Thanks in anticipation,

DB
Crusher Bob
Assuming you are working with the 'pistol' version of the calico, you are probably looking at:

Submachinegun
Conceal 4
Rounds 50
Damage 6M
It could probably be made selective fire as well, if you wanted to bother (SA/FA).
the 100 round mag reduces conceal by 1 (id say more, but plenty of full sized rifles are conceal 2)

The 'carbine' version
Submachinegun
Conceal 2-3 (probably 3)
rounds 50 or 100
Damage 6-7M
SA/FA
Austere Emancipator
Why on earth would you use a heavy (when loaded) and extremely poorly balanced handgun that fires a relatively low-power round on semi-automatic only?

Is this for an otherwise canon (at least as far as firearms are concerned) game of SR? Since you can't make a SMG SA only according to the Cannon Companion rules, you're stuck with 6L-7L for the damage code. The M950 has a long barrel compared to most other 9x19mm pistols, but very short compared to any SMGs chambered for the same, and it's not as if the 9x19mm would be particularly powerful even out of a 400mm barrel. If you were to make an M960 SMG, I'd say 6M definitely.

With a full 100-round magazine, it weighs around 2.5kg. That's massive, 0.25-0.3kg more than a loaded Desert Eagle (Mk XIX), and most of that weight is very high, making the weapon extremely unbalanced. Can't say I have actual experience of that, but I would think it would be a horrible combat handgun.
Drain Brain
I'm not looking for a combat handgun, boss, as I said... I'm planning on utilising it as a PDW for downed pilots - for example where carrying a lot of spare clips is impractical, but a single weapon with a 100 round capacity would be handy. I would imagine that the weight wouldn't be too much of a problem - at 1000g loaded with a 50 round mag, and the mag itself taking up 810g of that, the 100 round mag would make it, what, about 1800g? Not too much, I daresay... and your loaded Desert Eagle has a cap of, what, 7 rounds of .50?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
at 1000g loaded with a 50 round mag, and the mag itself taking up 810g of that, the 100 round mag would make it, what, about 1800g? Not too much, I daresay... and your loaded Desert Eagle has a cap of, what, 7 rounds of .50?

No. That's 1000g unloaded, without magazine. That means 1.8kg loaded with a 50-round magazine, ~2.5kg with a 100-round magazine.

The .50AE Desert Eagle does indeed have a 7-round magazine.

A PDW is a combat weapon. I'd still say being FA-capable would be a good thing, or at least being BF-capable. Otherwise you've basically got a cumbersome Light Pistol with a huge magazine.
Crusher Bob
The balance with the 50 round mag isn't supposed to be 'too bad' (whatever that means), though the 100 round mag in the pistol version is probably a real armfull.

There are plently of small SMGs chambered in 9mm like the TMP, the micro and mini uzi, etc.

As for using it as a PDW, pilots are not John Rambo. If they run into something that they can't solve with ~25 rounds or so of 9mm, they are probably better off surrendering.
Snow_Fox
Right. Down'ed pilots are taught evasion and hiding, the gun is the last resort since they will be outnumbered. If you do want lots more ammo. 100 rounds is too damn much. It is easier to carry 4, 20 rd clips, say 2 on each leg with one in the gun and have the same effect.
Drain Brain
Fair enough! I can do nothing other than bow to your opinions - since A) I have no idea what I'm talking about anyway wink.gif and B) In my country, if you're shot down you hide in a frenchman's cafe and drink copious amounts of tea... or pretend to be a French Policeman... "I was pissing by the dooor, when I 'erd a sheet...


On the plus side, though, I managed to make an accurate gunbunny statement - about the Deagle - so I'm happy with my progress... wonder if I can get a stick-on star from my kindergarten teacher? embarrassed.gif question.gif
Raygun
*sticks a silver star on Drain Brain's forehead*

Here's a rifle that was developed as a survival gun for downed pilots. Springfield's M6 Scout. Not really anything beyond utilitarian, but good for small game hunting or close-range sniping, should it be necessary.
Solstice
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
Fair enough! I can do nothing other than bow to your opinions - since A) I have no idea what I'm talking about anyway wink.gif and B) In my country, if you're shot down you hide in a frenchman's cafe and drink copious amounts of tea... or pretend to be a French Policeman... "I was pissing by the dooor, when I 'erd a sheet...


On the plus side, though, I managed to make an accurate gunbunny statement - about the Deagle - so I'm happy with my progress... wonder if I can get a stick-on star from my kindergarten teacher? embarrassed.gif question.gif

Are you familiar with what is currently used for a pilots survival weapon? If you do look you would realize how absurd a Calico would be in that situation. I mean no offense to you by that.
Drain Brain
QUOTE (Solstice)
Are you familiar with what is currently used for a pilots survival weapon? If you do look you would realize how absurd a Calico would be in that situation. I mean no offense to you by that.

Actually mate, I hadn't looked... I was working simply on the basis of my own musings and what I thought would be the requirements for such a weapon - basically, good ammo capacity, really.

In practical terms, I know sod all about firearms or their application, save what I know from work - I handle blank firing guns for a properties company (theatre and so forth) - and that runs merely to revolvers of various types. I find firearms intriguing in and of themselves, but being in Britain is not conducive to the persuance of such a hobby...

Out of interest, since we seem to have discounted the aforementioned Calico from this purpose, does it have a purpose? It's too bulky, unbalanced and cumbersome to be a combat pistol, so what use is it? Or the rifle version (the 900)? The only one that seems to make sense is the SMG (960 I think).
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

As for using it as a PDW, pilots are not John Rambo. If they run into something that they can't solve with ~25 rounds or so of 9mm, they are probably better off surrendering.

Hmm, there's an idea for a physad power.

"John Rambo's anti-bullet magnetism.

This power makes the physad emit a magnetic field that slightly deflects metal rounds that are fired towards him causing them to miss in most cases. This is the same power exhibited by Rambo in all the Rambo movies where half a dozen or more guys open up on him with assault rifles and machine guns but they simply never hit him for some mysterious reason.

For every 3 power points spent on this power, the physad gives a +1 TN penalty to anyone who shoots at him with metallic rounds."
Solstice
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
Out of interest, since we seem to have discounted the aforementioned Calico from this purpose, does it have a purpose? It's too bulky, unbalanced and cumbersome to be a combat pistol, so what use is it? Or the rifle version (the 900)? The only one that seems to make sense is the SMG (960 I think).



IMO no it doesn't have a purpose. I haven't been on the cutting edge of the gun scene for many years but IIRC it never did see much use and it really wasn't sought after by anyone as far as I know. When the FN P90 came along I think the calico's life was essentially ended.
Drain Brain
But the P90 seems to have a point to it! The Calico doesn't...

But there's a bonus point to anyone who can name the film where the big black dude from the Candyman films weilds one - whilst wearing a particularly cool hat, might I add...


I'll give you a clue:

"Lem'me do a quick impression for ya: 'Kaw, Kaw, Bang, Fuck I'm dead'!"
Austere Emancipator
There are lots of guns that don't really have a point. The Calico pistol does seem to be one of them. Assuming the Calicos are reliable, the M-960 might be semi-useful (all it is is a slightly quirky SMG), and the M-900 might be a fun gun to shoot all day in a firing range or to hunt some small game with.

Fancy that, we have the Jane's GRG of the same year...
Drain Brain
*grins* It's my faay-vwit book wink.gif

All those shiny pictures...


Actually, that's a lie - I like my BBB better... so sad, I know...
Solstice
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
But the P90 seems to have a point to it! The Calico doesn't...

Well IMO the Calico was an early attempt at the same concept as the p90. The end result was just too unrefined...and granted they probably just didn't have the technology to make a 100 round SMG uncumbersome.
Raygun
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Fancy that, we have the Jane's GRG of the same year...

Not that odd. There have only been three editions. 1996, 2000, 2002. I have the 96, too.

QUOTE (Solstice)
The end result was just too unrefined...and granted they probably just didn't have the technology to make a 100 round SMG uncumbersome.

And it's pretty unlikely that they ever will, at least in any useful cartridge.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Fancy that, we have the Jane's GRG of the same year...

Not that odd. There have only been three editions. 1996, 2000, 2002. I have the 96, too.

Still, I find it funny that so many people refer to the exact same book (if you can really call it that) for most of their gun-stuff. I wouldn't think there's a huge lack of affordable books with general information about guns.
Fortune
QUOTE (Raygun)
Not that odd. There have only been three editions. 1996, 2000, 2002. I have the 96, too.

That surprises me. I figured you would have the latest book for sure.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Raygun @ Dec 6 2004, 01:05 AM)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Fancy that, we have the Jane's GRG of the same year...

Not that odd. There have only been three editions. 1996, 2000, 2002. I have the 96, too.

Still, I find it funny that so many people refer to the exact same book (if you can really call it that) for most of their gun-stuff. I wouldn't think there's a huge lack of affordable books with general information about guns.

Actually, in my experience, there is a lack of general information books on small arms. I've only seen a few that try and do the same thing the Jane's guide does, as most, in my experience, tend to lean towards the hunting side of things. Hell, I can't say I've been too impressed with what I have seen. The internet may be less reliable (though there are some errors in the Jane's guides, and more in the other books I've seen), but it's far more inclusive, and skillful researching can filter out most of the erroneous stuff. world.guns.ru fo' life, yo.
Raygun
Paladin Press. Krause Publications. Greenhill Books. All publish some very good firearm-related books.

QUOTE (Fortune)
That surprises me. I figured you would have the latest book for sure.

Meh. I have plenty of other books. The Guns Recognition Guide is very general in its information. It gives you a picture, some stats, and a short blurb about each gun. It's handy if you see a gun you don't recognize and that's about it. Not to sound all egotistical and shit, but I haven't picked it up in a very long time. Most of Hogg's books go along the same kind of vein, only differing in the level of detail paid to each gun.

Like Arethusa said, you can also find that kind of information online realitively easily, often directly from the manufacturer.

These days I'm more interested in specific things rather than general data, for which books from Paladin Press and a subscription to Small Arms Review handle nicely. I only buy books anymore if the information is particularly difficult to find elsewhere.
Fortune
It's cool. I wasn't casting aspersions ... merely expressing my surprise that someone as in-touch with firearms as you obviously are has the oldest version of the book. As I know next to nothing about the subject, but have heard that the various 'Jane's Guides' books are (sometimes) considered to be standards, I would have figured it would be a staple for a person with your interest. smile.gif
Raygun
It was much more useful once upon a time. Before the internet. And Jane's does have other books that are very informative, mostly the Infantry Weapons, Ammunition Handbook, Police and Security Equipment, and other annuals that cost a great pretty penny to get ahold of.

If you're just getting into guns, the Recognition Guide is definitely one of the better books to have. It does cover an awful lot of firearms from about the last quarter of the 19th century on, and the information in it is generally edited well, holding to a higher standard of correctness than you're likely to find in one place on the internet.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
But the P90 seems to have a point to it! The Calico doesn't...

But there's a bonus point to anyone who can name the film where the big black dude from the Candyman films weilds one - whilst wearing a particularly cool hat, might I add...


I'll give you a clue:

"Lem'me do a quick impression for ya: 'Kaw, Kaw, Bang, Fuck I'm dead'!"

The Crow

Thanks for the point.
Shrapnel
Don't forget about Spaceballs... They used Calico rifles as props for their blaster rifles.

They do look kinda futuristic, in an ugly, akward sort of way... wink.gif
Shrapnel
Forgot to add... I'd personally take an AR7 collapsible .22 long rifle over the Springfield M6 Scout any day... The only advantage of the Scout is the .410 barrel, where the AR7 is totally collapsible, semi-auto, fits into it's own buttstock when disassembled, and floats!!! Nice little survival rifle, all in all.

Springfield AR7

As for a small, lightweight PDW with lots of firepower, why not something like this:

Bushmaster Carbon 15 Pistol

That oughta give you guys something to think about for a while... biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Shrapnel)
As for a small, lightweight PDW with lots of firepower, why not something like this:

Because the lack of stock makes it delightfully inaccurate, and it comes with guaranteed AR15-family reliability (ie. it's not).
toturi
You fired one of those before, AE?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
But the P90 seems to have a point to it! The Calico doesn't...

I always got the impression that it was really just a platform to show off/sell their helical magazine design.


-karma
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
You fired one of those before, AE?

A Bushmaster or any AR15s? Nope on both counts.

I'm aware some weapons based on the same action as the M16 and AR15 are decently reliable. In a survival weapon that just doesn't cut it, it needs to be absolutely reliable. I wouldn't trust a weapon from the AR15 family for that.

As for the accuracy, well, I've handled my share of assault rifles, and I sure as hell wouldn't give up my shoulder stock even if it takes a bit more space and weighs 0.3kg.
Clyde
Had a chance to fire something similar once. It wasn't a Bushmaster, the owner had just assembled it himself and registered it as a pistol I believe. It seemed quite awkward, although I'm not a marksman.

I thought the whole point of a PDW was that it was easier to use than a pistol but still about as light. The p90 was just a forerunner to the concept, given its size and weight (it's 50cm long).

Personally, I haven't been impressed with any of the PDW designs out there. Given the size and weight reductions going into modern assault rifles (M-4, XM-cool.gif why would you want a crappy machine pistol instead?
Arethusa
Not easier to use than a pistol. Just similarly light, portable, and compact, and with as much firepower as one can pack in with those constraints. It's kind of tough to use an assault rifle if you work inside a tank most of the time, and the first applications of the concepts were sort of automatic pistols (skorpions, etc). In general, the PDW thing is for rear echelon troops, supply guys, air and vehicle crews, and anyone else that doesn't tend to do much real fighting on the infantry level but could still use something better than a pistol if he or she has to. The P90 (and HK PDW), with its focus on AP exclusively, is actually something of a departure from most traditional PDWs.
Raygun
The term "Personal Defense Weapon" has pretty much made its way into the small arms vernacular as a weapon classification since the introduction of the P90. It's become almost universal to classify all compact automatic firearms that utilize these proprietary, high-penetration munitions (5.7x28mm FN, 4.6x30mm HK, 6.5x25mm CBJ, etc...) as PDWs, while anything similar that fires pistol ammunition, including the MP5K PDW, is classified as a submachine gun.

I'm not sure if FN officially came up with the PDW nomenclature (I'm not aware of its use prior to the introduction of the P90, though it may have originated with the NATO request that inspired its development), but someone in the industry did and it spread from there. HK then applied it to the MP5K PDW (designed to compete in the same market as the P90), then again with the MP7 PDW. Saab-Bofors' CBJ-MS is also referred to as a PDW.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.
KarmaInferno
And this is why I am always a little bothered watching Stargate SG1.

I mean, you have troops going out into potential front line assault situations and you give them rear-echelon SMGs as their primary firearm?

sarcastic.gif


-karma
hyzmarca
Because they've been modified using alien supertechnology grinbig.gif
Kagetenshi
But they're neat-looking rear-echelon SMGs!

~J
Wounded Ronin
Because TV sucks. I stopped watching TV because everything that came on was stupid and unrealistic.
toturi
The weapons got to look nice and stylish, in case the natives have an artistic sense. By the way, it is probably that SG-1(read: O'Neill, 2 Ls) likes the P90. The other SG teams are usually seen using variants of M-16s. Probably it's a Air Force thing.

If my Stargate-Fu serves, O'Neill used a shotgun in one of the Season Premieres. The one with the Replicators.
hyzmarca
Against the replicators they usualy employ the AS12 combat shotgun. Teal'c often carries a SAW during combat missions. From what I understand, one of the big selling points of the P90 is that it ejects spent casings downward. As a result, the actors don't have to worry about putting each others eyes out with hot brass. It makes filming in close quaters much easier.
Arethusa
I'm actually quite surprised such a low budget, fringe audience show got ahold of P90s. FNH is notoriously tight when it comes to anyone using their weapons, including Hollywood. Equilibrium had problems getting FNH to clear working P90s in time and ended up shooting with rubber mockups instead.
toturi
They had a Chief of Staff come in in one episode IIRC.
Drain Brain
Would the odd 90 degree design of the P90 clip be accurately referred to as helical? I'd say it's more "Pissed Clip..."

And Raygun - for a neophyte in the "gun interest" scene, are there any particular tomes you would reccomend - for general information on form and function, really. Remember, that a great big pond splits us and access may be... problematic... for many references...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
Would the odd 90 degree design of the P90 clip be accurately referred to as helical?
Nope. Helical means "having the general form of a helix" or something similar, which the magazine of a Calico is -- you can see the inner workings here. The magazine on the FN P90 is just a normal, double-stacked box magazine that happens to be at a 90-degree angle and feeds through a ramp which rotates each round.
Ed_209a
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
...and it comes with guaranteed AR15-family reliability (ie. it's not).

This is not directed directly at AE, but at the general attitudes against the M16/AR15 family:

In my Army training and qualifying over the past several years, I have probably put close to a thousand rounds through various M16A2s, and I haven't had a single Jam, misfire, etc.

This is in a variety of conditions, from Kuwait in May, to Ft Knox KY in February.

I don't claim to be the end-all and be-all for the M16, but my hands-on experience with the rifle has been very positive, overall.


Clyde
Ed, the M-16 has undergone several improvements from its first deployment in Vietnam. The A-1 series and improved maintenance resolved many of the initial reliability issues, but a gun only has to jam up in a firefight so many times to get a very bad reputation. The A-2 series has a thicker profile and sturdier hardware, although I'm not sure of the extent to which that helps with the jamming issue: a pistonless gas operated action is just going to spew carbon fouling all through the works no matter what you do.

The general consensus I've picked up over the years is that the M-16 (A-1 or A-2) is sufficiently reliable for military use (which is very reliable, indeed) but that it cannot be trusted in the most extreme climate conditions. On the other hand, I for one would class Kuwait in May as pretty darned extreme. Either way, it's likely that your personal skill and diligence are more than a minor factor in the reliability you've experienced.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Clyde)
The general consensus I've picked up over the years is that the M-16 (A-1 or A-2) is sufficiently reliable for military use (which is very reliable, indeed) but that it cannot be trusted in the most extreme climate conditions.

This is really what I was getting at. I've got nothing against M16s, M4s, M177s, etc, I'm sure they perform very well in conventional warfare, where they are well maintained, and can be repaired or replaced if something bad happens. When you crash-land behind enemy lines and have to use whatever you can pull out of the mangled chassis of your helo, you don't have those options. The weapon has to be absolutely reliable.

On the other hand, I can't think of a single weapon I would be happy with when crash-landing behind enemy lines.
Kagetenshi
Ares Viper Slivergun? wink.gif

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Ares Viper Slivergun? wink.gif

~J

If it was Dikoted it would reduce friction and increase reliability! grinbig.gif
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
I'm actually quite surprised such a low budget, fringe audience show got ahold of P90s.  FNH is notoriously tight when it comes to anyone using their weapons, including Hollywood.  Equilibrium had problems getting FNH to clear working P90s in time and ended up shooting with rubber mockups instead.

They're probably modified, blank-firing models (like Tokyo Marui), not real P90s.

QUOTE (Drain Brain)
And Raygun - for a neophyte in the "gun interest" scene, are there any particular tomes you would reccomend - for general information on form and function, really. Remember, that a great big pond splits us and access may be... problematic... for many references...


I wouldn't think that you would have too many problems getting ahold of books from the publishers I linked to (even Paladin ships overseas), especially Greenhill Books, as they are based in London.

One of the more prolific authors on firearms, Ian Hogg (Jane's Guns Recognition Guide, Military Small Arms of the 20th Century, The Greenhill Military Small Arms Data Book, Modern Small Arms, Submachine Guns, etc...), was English, so I would think you should be able to find some of his books. HarperCollins publishes the Jane's books, so you should be able to find those.

For a self-titled neophyte, I would recommend the Jane's Gun Recognition Guide (3rd Edition) and Military Small Arms of the 20th Century (7th Edition). Both are written by Hogg, and should be available to you there.

As far as internet links are concerned, my bookmark.htm file is available at my website. Tons of links.
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