Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What happens when armor exceeds weapsons rating
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
U_Fester
A mage is wearing an armor of 4/3. He casts an armor spell of force 6 and succeeds. He new armor rating is now a 10/9.

First what if he is hit with attacks that does 6L, 10L and 12L. Does he shrug off the 6 and 10 and his target number to soak 12 is a 2.

Second someone shoots him with APDS with a power 8M. Is all of the ballistic halved giving him a 5 (half of 10) or only the physical is halved and the magic is fine giving him an 8 (2 half of 4 and plus 6).
hyzmarca
Unless he has milspec hardened armor or Immunity to Normal weapons his TN to soak for all three is 2.
Kagetenshi
Also, all of the armor is halved including the magical stuff.

~J
Cain
To clarify point 1: Let's say that your mage has a body of 1, and doesn't have any combat pool left. In all three cases, he takes a Light wound, since he can't stage it down enough. If he has enough dice, he'll be rolling against a TN of 2.

Thus, even with absurd armor ratings, a character is still vulnerable to high-damage-level attacks.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (Cain)
Thus, even with absurd armor ratings, a character is still vulnerable to high-damage-level attacks.

If the armor is not hardened (as in our example), the absurd armor rating character is still vulnerable to attacks of 1L.
Cain
Vulnerable, yes; but not nearly as much as against a 1D attack.
lorthazar
Thus the possibility of dying from a .22LR round that hits your leather jacket, backed by armor clothes and form fitting body armor. Don't you love when they misconstrue realism. It would be much more logical to reduce damage to a stun when it power hits 0 or less. Then again logic has nothing to do with it.
Bigity
Not necessarily. Some people die from shock when grazed with a bullet. (Or, a 2D attack?)
Fortune
Why? The combat system in Shadowrun is abstract. A highly successful shot might mean the shooter hit you in the head.
lorthazar
True, but if he doesn't call an extremity shot I assume he is aiming for chest and the vital organs. (not that the brain isn't vital it's just damn hard to hit on a moving target)


It's just a matter of very poor wording and thinking. Much like the Hand of God shotguns. A little more thinking would avoid situations like this.

Me I prefer to rule that unless you roll all 1's when struck by a round that your armor reduces the power to 0 or less, you take no real damage. It might be a nick, scrap or powder burn. This balances since head shots ignore armor anyway unless you have a hemet.
Kagetenshi
So you aren't using the Shadowrun combat system. Fair enough.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Thus the possibility of dying from a .22LR round that hits your leather jacket, backed by armor clothes and form fitting body armor.
If you play by canon, the rules don't tell you where someone was hit. If a heavily armored character is hit with a Hold-Out Pistol with 8 net successes before Damage Resistance and the character only gets 2 successes on DamRes, the GM could descibe it as being hit in the forehead.

I agree that some way of making heavy armor more useful against attacks should exist. I personally give an additional die on the Damage Resistance test for each point armor would drop the Power of the attack under 2. Thus 10 points of Ballistics armor vs Hold-Out Pistol = 2L with 8 extra dice on the Damage Resistance test.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
So you aren't using the Shadowrun combat system. Fair enough.

~J

It's interesting how lots of us for some reason don't like to deal with the system we are given and seem compelled to make it more real. It's a game that deals in *alot* of fantasy topics, that usually halts most of my desire to make it more believable and logical.

I wonder how many of us change up the rules of Monopoly or Stratego to add more realism? $5000 for landing on Boardwalk?!??!! Damned property values are rediculous!
lorthazar
Hey Kagetenshi,

I'm just wondering if you are the same slot who makes the GM's life hell every week by being the quintessential rules lawyer? If not then I appologize for asking.

As for your comment, Yes, I do use the shadowrun system, as my ruling has never come up. Most of my players either where light enough armor that a holdout has at least 1 power, or hardened military armor.

Yes according to rules the shot is never determined, but in quite a few cases the only place a round can hit is a heavily armored area. Now according to rules the successes still stage up the damage in that case, which I follow faithfully. I have had trolls die from shock because a 9mm APDS pierced their hand. I have had mages live through a 12 gauge to the head. It is fine to have an abstract rule and I play with that rule. But the day that rule makes the game unfun for the whole group, I will make revisions. That is what make me a good GM.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (lorthazar @ Dec 6 2004, 01:49 PM)
Hey Kagetenshi,

I'm just wondering if you are the same slot who makes the GM's life hell every week by being the quintessential rules lawyer? If not then I appologize for asking.

I am the GM most of the time, and when I'm not the GM likewise understands the value of using a consistent and previously known set of rules. There have been occasions when during games we have made a ruling and then researched it later, but last time I checked we're not playing a game that could get bogged down by discussing this right now.

Given infinite time, I will generally try to approach infinite precision with regards to examining the SR3 rules. Then I make revisions if necessary, but I never try to pass off those revisions as logical extensions of canon.

~J
JaronK
I very much prefer when a GM for the most part follows the rules as written, unless they give warning that they're going to do otherwise. I've seen too many GMs decide something weird is "reasonable" or "more realistic" and it stinks.

JaronK
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (lorthazar)
As for your comment, Yes, I do use the shadowrun system, as my ruling has never come up. Most of my players either where light enough armor that a holdout has at least 1 power, or hardened military armor.

So your player's characters wear, at the absolute most, Armored Clothing (Ballistic 3)? And if not that, they're strapping on MilGrade Hardened Armor? To each their own.
lorthazar
I have a new definition of irony

Infinite Precision of Knowledge in a Flawed Subject rotfl.gif


No offense meant it just struck me as to funny not to share.



Here's the deal as I see it. Their are two factors to the game: Rules and Players. Without players there would be no use for the rules. So if your group (as a group mind you) think something should work one way, and the rules seem a little buggy on that, then the rule changes. New handouts can be made. The house rule can be explained.

Does this make the game any less ShadowRun? No, in fact it may make the game more shadowrun.

Does this make me right and you wrong? No, but it also doesn't make me wrong and you right

Does this make my rules inconsistent? No. once I go by a ruling and it has been used once I stick with it, unless FanPro were to come down with an Errata that made more sense.
lorthazar
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
So your player's characters wear, at the absolute most, Armored Clothing (Ballistic 3)?  And if not that, they're strapping on MilGrade Hardened Armor?  To each their own.

Actually, in one game they wear ballistic cloth backed leather clothes. We are going with an old cyberpunk feel.

In another game milspec is what they wear when on runs. Rest of the time heaviest thing i have seen is a gel pack lined coat.
Voran
Also, just because your character is wearing a full suit of armor, doesn't always mean their entire body is covered in the same amount of armor. Armor ratings, especially when you having stacking of armor, represents the overall, otherwise, you'd have to have individual part armor ratings. Chest/Torso would be as listed, every other part a fraction of that. Which is why basic armor doesn't bounce ammo rounds unless its hardened.

By the game rules, just running around bareassed with nothing on except a plated armor vest gives you decent armor protection. About the same armor protection, if not a little more, than wearing a full suit of 90% covering FFBA.

So wearing an armor jacket still means my character can take a round in the arm, as I'm sure not the entire jacket is plated and protected. Made of bullet resistant cloth, sure, but not plated.
algcs
So we should assume the armor spell doesn't cover the entire body? In the first post the mage has a force 6 Armor spell up and gets hit by a DL 6 attack. Just using the armor spell the DL is a zero. Ok so it isn't real armor and it is magic and works differently than regular armor. That is fine and dandy but then why the heck does ADPS 1/2 the armor spell?
JaronK
Well, here's one way to look at it. A character is wearing a SecureTech ultra vest over form fitting body armour, with an Armoured Jacket with Dikoted plates over the top (Balistic Rating 9). He's quite well armoured. If he's a troll, and someone shoots a 9M heavy pistol shot at him, the armour will take the vast majority of the damage, causing him to grunt a bit from the hit, but otherwise be fine. If, however, he's a little weakling, the shot may knock the wind out of him and knock him down, causing him to hit his head or maybe just be so scared by the whole thing that he goes into shock.

JaronK
Jonah
location is not stated, so a leather jacket will not save your life if I shoot you in the eye with a .22. Remember the better you are at shooting a gun, the more successes you get = bigger damage code.
A noob with a panther cannon will hit everything but the target, an olympic shooter will put one in each eye socket at 500m with a match grade .22 pistol.
This doesn't need a called shot, it is reflected by the characters skill. Accuaracy is far deadlier than the perverbial BIG GUN.

Called shots however let you bypass armour (mmm that military spec guy just took of his helmet, or worse still DON"T get caught with your amoured pants down)
Kagetenshi
Accuracy won't let you do 20D(AV).

~J
hyzmarca
Accuracy will let you bypass vehicle armor altogether, which is almost as good.
Kagetenshi
Accuracy will let you bypass naval armor too. In fact, if someone straps themself to the other side of the earth, I can define it as armor and bypass it!

~J
lorthazar
And I as a GM would perform a lobotomy on you in the name of world peace.
JaronK
That's what the Ares Orbital Bovine Bombardment System is for.

JaronK
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (lorthazar)
And I as a GM would perform a lobotomy on you in the name of world peace.

Not before I had added many holes to your cranium for using that piece of errata in the first place.

~J
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

I wonder how many of us change up the rules of Monopoly or Stratego to add more realism? $5000 for landing on Boardwalk?!??!! Damned property values are rediculous!

I hope you realize how righteously awesome it would be if someone did that. It would be like something out of Knights Of The Dinner Table.

Think about it...Stratego with cannon support, a "dynsentry" card that you could play on an enemy unit, pre-game assaults on enemy supply lines, and using pieces from your HeroQuest box set to represent battlefield entrenchments. rotfl.gif

Monopoly would be even better. Since the game originated in, like, the 30s, we could incorporate a mafia element...at least it would justify the Go To Jail cards. You could pay various amounts of money to have your mafia contacts firebomb property and destroy it, or make a hotel not count for a certain number of turns by driving away the tourist with a "Drive-by Thompson SMG .45ACP peppering" power play. Then there would also be G Men who would move randomly around the board and make the square they were in immune to mob-based hits. Finally, there would be one almightly G Man, the "Dual 1911 Wielding Vengance Cop" who, if you had used the mafia power plays at all during the game, if he was in the same square as your token would unload his 1911s into you and make you die, removing you from the game.
Kagetenshi
Actually, some of us over at SotSW (we've been doing play-by-post monopoly for a few weeks) have been discussing converting Monopoly to the Shadowrun world. Nothing in the rules, but alterations like changing Boardwalk to Saeder-Krupp, changing Bank Error in Your Favour to Organlegging, changing the card that makes you give $50 to every other player to "Your Team Betrays You, Give Each Player 50" that kind of thing.

~J
toturi
Don't forget... "Keeping up with the SOTA: Pay 50:nuyen:" or "High powered Lawyer: Get out of Jail free"
Kagetenshi
Paying 50 to get out of jail has been termed hiring the World's Worst Shadowrunners (they're dirt cheap, but they ditch you as soon as you get out the door), and I'm thinking of what to call the other three railroads (one becoming Federated Boeing).

~J
Jonah
Accuracy also helps kill characters quicker, remember that once you hit weapon code D every two successes add one box of damage to your overflow (see 126 SR3 main book).

And who cares if you do 20D AV?? (the panther does 18D by the way). If you can't hit it, you can't kill it. Besides they tend to make you into a target, from more than just the police. Style kiddies.
Cochise
QUOTE (Jonah)
Accuracy also helps kill characters quicker, remember that once you hit weapon code D every two successes add one box of damage to your overflow (see 126 SR3 main book).


Depending on the power to body relation ... And it's an optional rule wink.gif
Gilthanis
I think one of the most important factors here is whether or not the Armor Spell provides standard armor or hardened armor. The spell doesn't say which. So, it would have to be assumed to be hardened considering that it stacks with hardened armor the same as basic. Using that logic, you would need power ratings higher than 6.
lorthazar
Actuall;y the Armor spell provides a Barrier Rating which is a bit different than armor.
Gilthanis
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Actuall;y the Armor spell provides a Barrier Rating which is a bit different than armor.

I would like to see a reference to this, because according to Canon, it is an armor rating added not a barrier or barrier rating. Otherwise this would be a limited barrier spell.
Ol' Scratch
It doesn't matter. APDS works equally well against Armor and Barriers. The spell may be magical in nature, but the effect is equivalent to normal armor and barrier ratings, including potential weak spots and/or fluxations.
lorthazar
SR3ed p198

QUOTE
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against physical damage. One success is enough to create a field with a Barrier Rating equal to the spell's Force. Every two successes increase the Barrier Rating by 1. The Barrier can be brought down by physical attacks. Any reductions in Barrier Rating are restored at the beginning of the next Combat Turn. If the barrier is penetrated, it collapses and the spell ends. (see Barriers p.124, for more information.)


That is the exact wording of the spell in question.
Gilthanis
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It doesn't matter. APDS works equally well against Armor and Barriers. The spell may be magical in nature, but the effect is equivalent to normal armor and barrier ratings, including potential weak spots and/or fluxations.

So then Doc, here is a quick question... How do you do the math when an elmental is being shot at that has a Force 6 armor spell on. Does the spell also get the immunity to normal weapons factor or is it considered the basic armor bought at the peewee hermon store?

And yes, I'm looking for a description of more than just one ammo type to clerify the importance here.
Gilthanis
QUOTE (lorthazar)
SR3ed p198

QUOTE
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against physical damage. One success is enough to create a field with a Barrier Rating equal to the spell's Force. Every two successes increase the Barrier Rating by 1. The Barrier can be brought down by physical attacks. Any reductions in Barrier Rating are restored at the beginning of the next Combat Turn. If the barrier is penetrated, it collapses and the spell ends. (see Barriers p.124, for more information.)


That is the exact wording of the spell in question.

Sorry but YOU have an old book with a misprint.... try reading the erratta.
lorthazar
Considering that FASA wrote my copy and not FanPro. I would have to say the misprint is the sophmoric interpretation that it adds Armor Rating to your armor.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Gilthanis @ Dec 7 2004, 01:45 PM)
So then Doc, here is a quick question... How do you do the math when an elmental is being shot at that has a Force 6 armor spell on. Does the spell also get the immunity to normal weapons factor or is it considered the basic armor bought at the peewee hermon store?

Those are two completely different effects with their own rules. No, the Armor spell does not gain the benefits of Immunity to Normal Weapons. If the attack is enough to get past the elementals immunity, its Power is reduced normally by both effects, but the Armor spell's Force isn't even referenced to see if the attack is enough to get past in the first place.

APDS/AV doesn't have any special effect on Immunity, but it still halves the Armor spell's effect by half as per the standard rules.

And lorthazar, you're quoting the Physical Barrier spell, not the Armor spell. Regardless, what's your point with the quote? It creates a Barrier Rating that's affected just like any other Barrier Rating save that it's 1) magical and 2) replenishes at the end of a Combat Turn.
John Campbell
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Considering that FASA wrote my copy and not FanPro.  I would have to say the misprint is the sophmoric interpretation that it adds Armor Rating to your armor.

FASA wrote mine, too.

QUOTE (SR3 Corrected Third Printing @ p.198)

This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage. One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn. This spell either works or it doesn't; extra successes do not add additional points to the Armor Rating.
lorthazar
So if you go by that one it is normal armor as it does not state it is hardened armor, therefore default rules apply.


As for me I like the barrier version of the spell. Although I would reword it so that dropping the barrier does not end the spell as the caster can erect the barrier again with a complex action.

BitBasher
QUOTE
So if you go by that one it is normal armor as it does not state it is hardened armor, therefore default rules apply.
I disagree, specifically because the exact spell's

QUOTE
The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn.
The key here, is that this quote does not say that is't soft armor that stacks with your worn armor, it says it adds to your existing worn armor. If your existing worn armor is hardened, then it would add hardened, as it's explicityl adding it's rating to the rating of the physical armor you are wearing.
Cain
QUOTE
As for me I like the barrier version of the spell. Although I would reword it so that dropping the barrier does not end the spell as the caster can erect the barrier again with a complex action.

If that's the case, what's the difference between the Armor spell and the Physical Barrier spell? What you're describing is nothing more than an Personal Physical Barrier spell.
lorthazar
becuase a physical barrier is not form fitting and goes both ways, meaning if you shoot through it your bullets slow down.

and personal physical barrier protects only you but does it of a larger area and may stop rounds aimed at you but that missed.
Fortune
QUOTE (lorthazar)
becuase a physical barrier is not form fitting and goes both ways, meaning if you shoot through it your bullets slow down.

and personal physical barrier protect only you but does it of a larger area and made stop round aimed at yopu but that missed.

Articulated just like a person with an IQ of 182. eek.gif ohplease.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012