I don't use the advanced martial arts rules because they are the towering height of unrealistic bullcrap. I just stick with the basic melee rules which are a lot easier to swallow because they're so abstract rather than specific and wrong.



I can't believe that you guys don't use knockdown. In my opinion, knockdown is one of the most important rules. If you aren't using knockdown, then the places where your fights take place aren't interesting enough.

Knockdown is all about knocking characters off of ledges, into hazardous surfaces, or over 10 meter drops. You have to think of all kinds of creative things to dump the characters in...in the past I've put vats of natto, processed meat material, and boiling tar on my maps in places where people might get knockback/knockdowned into them.

Knockdown is just one of those things that you hope fervently will happen every time you play if you've set up your maps right.

Of course, the coolest knockdown/knockback incident I ever heard of was from the CLUE files, where someone got knockbacked out of a skyscraper window. Now *that* is utterly, humungously, amazingly cool, and it would be my transcendant, radiant dream for that to happen ENTIRELY by accident without anyone having thought of it beforehand during one of my games. That would be so hilarious and cool that it would make flowers spring from the desert.

The rules I mentioned not using are all rules that I have neglected, not (with the exception of Maneuver Score, which I recently changed my opinion on) ones that I have deliberately not used.

That being said, unless the windows were already breached, that was a bad CLUE file. They make those windows damn sturdy for exactly that reason.

~J

It was. The guy swung in commando style through that very window, and got shot right back out. IIRC.

I hate the purchasing rules to fraggin pieces. A char with a low etiquette skill shouldn't even bother with having a fixer as he's a basically useless contact. Basing wether you can buy an illegal item on how well you can sweettalk your fixer is the stupidest damn thing i've ever heard in my life, it's a fixer after all he shouldn't give a flying damn as long as you have the yen to pay for what you want and he has it in stock. I've just adopted the fact that all the fixers in my game have a procurement skill of 5 and if you want something i'll roll that to see if he can get it for you, makes sooo much more sense to me.

I think if I actually made up a list of all the rules that I would rather not use...
It woud be easier to ask me which ones I do.

That's not entirely true, but my old group really only used most of the basics found in SR3, a few in CC, the build points in SC, and pretty much nothing else.

We never bothered with:
-driving rules unless in a serious situation of chase or get-away driving.
-matrix rules
-movement (we had our own simpler version)
-some of the guys GMed without care to ammo

Generally speaking, I GM without care to the rules anyway.
Not to mean that I don't use them. I just don't care if I obey them. I'll break rules all the time, as GM, for my players sake, and for my own sake.

I'll make exceptions to rules often just because a player wants to do something with their character that can't otherwise be done.

I'll add and remove different rules all the time for no other real reason than to see what kind of impact it has on the game.

Ditto to pretty much everything stumps said. I only use the rules that seem appropriate at the time. Basicly I use init, the basic shooting and soaking rules from SR3, and the basic magic rules, and oretty much wing everything else. Trying to beat someone at something? Contested rolls of the most relivant skill!! Trying to ourtun someone, both make athletics tests! Wanna climb a sheer cliff? Roll athletics and tell me your highest number! Wanna lose some guy in traffic? ROll drive and get more successes than his drive. It pretyt much all breaks down the same way.


That and fixers have a get stuff skill for all the diffferent types of stuff. They roll that. Ettiquite for fixers is dumb to sell you stuff is dumb. Wow its late. Im gonna og pass out now.

Oh yeah, that reminds me ... I definitely have done away with all the inane Open Tests.

my group generally manages to keep their contacts in good terms so I almost never use those upkeep rules. After one campaign where a character lost a lvl 2 contact due to complete neglect (6 months in game without so much as a hello). Now everyone seems to at least speak with contacts once or twice a month in game.

martial arts rules have cause a little bit of an issue, mainly with players that nit pick or want to pull matrix shit all the time.

matrix rules have been tossed out , at least for now, I've only ever had 1 decker and he was a computer science grad/ programmer in RL and thus decided he was going to talk technical gibberish in order to get his way, would frequently use the line "i can do it in RL why cant i do it here with a computer 6 score", thankfully a short lived character.

I kinda like the idea of continuing to use paper/hard currency rather than credsticks all the time.

But how do you justify it in such an electronic age?

I dont use KnockDown, since I keep forgetting it and it slows down te game a bit. Never bothered with stress points of any kind either, too much micro maneging.
Deckers I consider a time sink, so they are not allowed, nor do I use the vehicle combat rules

Think that's it hehe

Knockdown rules are ace. Its the only way to quickly gain an edge over an equal opponent.

I once kicked a door in, rolled in onto the floor ready to blast away and got set upon by a razor boy, and my hth combat character found it nearly impossible to even get to his feet against the target numbers being prone put me on.

Knockdown get used, but we forget about half the time.

The SOTA upkeep rules got dropped.

We use contacts Ettq skill to get gear, with the PCs as complementary.

We adjust max starting rating and Avail to PC power level, right now rating 7 and avail of 9.

Seldom use chase scenes, but when they happen no manuever scores, but now that we have a rigger PC that someone is sticking with I plan to include them more.

We refresh karma pool per run, not per 24 hours, as it helped keep high karma pools from being crazy, and also helps keep balance between lower KP characters and higher ones, since the difference only helps them once per run instead of per day.

We also cut out the implied rule that 1/2 the Yaks or Triads are physads.

I curse the day someone decided every f***ing Shadowrun's rules should try to stick to reality as close as possible (and I'm pointing at vehicles, stress and routers). Some parts of the game should be fast paced, dammit! Whatever happened to playability anyway? *shakes fist*

There. I had to get it out of my system.

You're not getting me. I obviously appreciate realism, but there is a moment when the rules to emulate this become an interference to actual gaming.

hmm.. we ignore all number rules when deemed not too important for speed of play <especially for riggers! if non critical and on an avg roll you would succeed, no need to roll if skill =3+> , we ignore movement rules and move / initiative <ie you can move 20 m? and rolled an initiative of 40?-> , if you want to move 10 m you will get there at initiative 20 etc etc>
we ignore stress , unless in very specific situations. we ignore cyber damage unless odd situation; we absolutely ignore the flaws/perks system at creation, ignore some of the more odd metahuman `races`like minotaurs, we ignored the comet plotline & some others to keep the world more similar to ours.
we ignore some vehicle design rules, some weapon design rules, largely ignore ruthenium rules, oh yea biggest of all we ignore the surprise rules as written <houseruled differently>, we ignore martial arts rules. we sadly ignore knockdown, I wish we didnt but there are already way too many dice being rolled and my players are not fast dice rollers, I hope to implement them when this improves.

DS

Since knockdown seems popular yet tedious why not stick with 1 body test.
This variant uses the soak roll to determine knockdown, using combat pool dice of a different colour would help.
For simplicity the power of ranged attacks isn't halved and armour is considered (shock absorbtion?) so you basically count body dice successes for damage resistance and knockdown.

Knockdown tests with no extra dice roll:

If a target makes a soak test against an attack, compare their successses (body dice only) with the threshold listed below. Failure means they are either knocked prone (KD) or stagger back a metre from the impact.

Attacks with gel/stun ammo or failed charge attacks increase threshold by 1.
Threshold
Wound level* Stagger KD
Light 0 1
Moderate 1 2
Serious 2 3
Deadly Auto

Wound level takes into account any effect of the current attack.

Please consider?

There's two things I don't like about the Manuever Score. One, it seems like a big pain in the butt to calculate. (Its actually not that complicated, but its overly complicated for what it does which leads to my second beef.) Two, its meant to be an "abstract representation" of vehicle combat.

I prefer detail oriented vehicle combat. I find players respond better to descriptions of whats going on, even if I have to use toy cars, than a series of explanations like: "You make your position test. You are in a slightly better position. Recalculate Manuver Score."

Granted, there's nothing stopping a GM from using Manuver Score and then coming up with details around it, but why use a mechanic to come up with the abstracts and then pull the details from you ass when you can just use the mechanics to provide the details, especially if doing it that way is easier or quicker? My group just ignores the manuver score, makes positioning tests the basic control test, and moves on.

sr vehicle combat works better then what you have i d20 modern. where you either have combat scale or vehicle scale movement, with diffrent rules for the diffrent scales when it comes to ramming (in one two vehicles cant occupy the same square without a ramming test, in the other they can) and so on.

and those that skip matrix rules, for basic info seaches the rules in SR3 is overkill. check out matrix for stuff about info searches that can even be done by a non-decker, alltho the decker will have the upper hand if he have some smart frames or agents handy

As seems the theme my group also seems to forget knockdown. Stress is out the window as is manuver score. We also have house ruled "carrying the load" one of the players is an ex-marine served in Desert Storm and based on his testimony he went into combat with a 140 pound pack (63 kg ?), we thought that a Strength 6 human carrying only 31 kg before the stun wounds start in was a bit broken.

I've always thought the body test to self heal was just plain silly. I don't care if you are the perfect human speciman with a of body 9 - if you get shot you better go see a damn doctor...

Knock down is another one I don't use (except in situations where its actually plausible like getting hit by a water cannon). But from the looks of it most people don't use it...

The rules for AP ammo also seem silly to me. 1/2 armor? so it puches through 4 points worth of armor on a mil spec suit but only 2 points on a vest? I give AP ammo a set penetration, usually somewhere around 4 or 5 so they cut through personal armor like a knife through butter, but a guy in sec/mil armor has a fair chance....

MIJI is another. I've always thought it could be a cool RP device or whathave you, but the rules seem unweildy and most players don't take the time to learn them, which leaves the burden on the GM...

Many people do away with the stress rules but I would ask which part? The fact that it exists or that you get it from wounds. We started incorporating it because no extra roll is necessary, when you are wounded, just check you highest die. All wound effects and stress are applied after the fight. If you drop stress completely you can seriously violate the bio/cyber border. Besides, what the hell else is the Sammy supposed to spend his money on?

Not to keep harking on about ED (which I actually enjoy ) knockdown is used extensively in the game's combats. Ok youve taken a wound, test to knockdown, oh look your on your butt... It then takes your next round to get back up, or you face fighting from the floor which isnt usually an option. SR would be similer if it wasnt for the fact that you can shoot from the ground just as well as from a standing position.

What makes the Stress rules just so much bullshit in my eyes is the fact that it cannot be fully healed by any means whatsoever. Change that one little bit, and it makes the whole thing more palatable.

I never did like the way they split the firearms skill into concentrations. Though, I never did find a replacement way to force the karma balance (supposedly) like it is, making samurai spend more on their skills.

the manuver score is a open test, in fact i think it was in rigger2 that the open test got introduced (along with the current vehicle combat system). and how hard can that system be. you know the vehicle score, the gm tells you the enviroment score, roll open test, add up and presto. next round roll new open test, presto (unless the enviroment changes, something the gm keeps track of. vehicle score never changes).

and the stealth test isnt much of a problem, one success from a guard means that he things that there is something out there and may call out. if nothing else happens then do a second perception test and if they fail then he may just think it as something normal like a animal outside or some machine or other comeing on automaticly inside (it happens).

stress and knockdown i may never bother with...

Rules I don't use?

Vehicle anything. Nobody plays riggers really, and the system for vehicle combat is horrid.

Knockdown. Just keep forgetting....

Stress points on anything. Just don't see the need.

SOTA. Seriously, does anybody use this? I want the players to have fun, not have thier earnings pulled away just after a run...

It seems a lot of 2e/3e changes have come up here, the only one I don't like is the 'new' way of getting gear (sweet-talking your fixer). The firearms change was nice, as it kept every character from being good with basically any gun for just six skill points.

Dumped the SR3 language rules and houseruled something. Take your skill rating in the language, double it, thats your effective success roll, or modifier if the TN is higher. So rating 1 in the skill allows Universal Concepts (TN 2), rating 2 lets you do basic conversation, level 3 does complex subjects, level 4 is not quite enough to autosuccess intricate subjects (TN 9, so you'd have an effect TN of 2 (9-8, but minimum of 2 TN). Level 5 same thing, obscure subject TN 2, (11 base - 10, minimum 2). Rating 6 lets you pretty much get everything except obsure subjects in Lingo.

Knockdown, stress and, in some games (the ones i label "high-powered"), the rule that you can only start with a skill at a rank of at most *related attribute*. <_<
Though stress rules kinda apply... though not in normal combat, just when someone uses their cyberware badly (say, someone tries to pull the I,Robot trick with a cyberarm and a wall... why, hello there, stress!)
right, all vehicle rules. nobody likes a rigger anyway.