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Deadeye
So, just out of curiosity, which rules do you tend to ignore in your game, and why? I know there is no way to run a game completely by the book, and I wonder which rules people find most expendable.

I tend to ignore the increased heal times for bioware and cyber now that the two have been errata'd to effect essence the same, though I still do some other excessive bioware stuff. Decking and Rigging have never been popular with my players, but I usually have at least one who dabbles, so I tend to speed the former up (similar to MJLBB) and simplify the build and control rules on the other.

Thoughts?
Toptomcat
With pen-and-paper games, I don't roll Knockdown- takes too long. I roll it in online games, though, where the tempo is slower.
Deadeye
Knockdown...I always try to do that one, but always end up forgetting halfway through a high-tempo fight.

Good one. Gotta remember to roll it...
Mercer
Knockdown and the Manuver Score are two things we don't bother with, because they take to long. We never incorporated Edges and Flaws because we never got the Comp, and we use about half the Cannon Comp (firearms customization, the martial arts rules and the two weapon fighting are stuff we never bothered to work in). Vast amounts of the electronic warfare rules have never made it in either.
Kagetenshi
I admit it, I don't do Knockdown either. I'm spotty on Stress, too, which is very bad of me.

One thing that I've been forgetting that I've been ignoring and is on the top of my list of things to reintroduce is the Maneuver Score. I feel silly for having forgotten about it.

~J
lorthazar
I tend to ignore the cyberware and bioware strees points. I do enforce it occasionally when it seems appropiate. (panther cannon rounds, 220v hand to hand, struck by force 8+ lightning, barely surviving explosions, metal eating nanites) However I do make the players occasionaly do some maintenance on their cyber systems.

I allow my players to pay the karma difference between old spell forces and new.

I modify the initiative so that the slow guys go closer to the middle meanwhile the speed freaks go first, during, and last. I also allow players to move per combat phase.

I am in the middle of throwing out the shotgun spread rules in favor of some thing non munchkin

Finally I allow custom shotguns that have FA capability.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
I tend to ignore the increased heal times for bioware and cyber now that the two have been errata'd to effect essence the same

Who what huh? When the bloody hell did that happen?
Backgammon
Yeah, Stress I never do... No manoeuvre score either, or decking at all. We also use completely different dodging rules. I don't use edges and flaws either, though those aren't technically rules. Often don't use CC unarmed combat rules, but sometimes yes, although right now we're playtesting some cooky rules one of my players came up with.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (lorthazar)
I also allow players to move per combat phase.

Isn't this how it's done normally? Each playerr has the option to move each Combat Phase? Am I missing something here?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
I tend to ignore the increased heal times for bioware and cyber now that the two have been errata'd to effect essence the same

Who what huh? When the bloody hell did that happen?

I'm pretty sure he's misinterpreting the errata to how Magic is affected.

~J
lorthazar
yeah according to many people you move only so far each turn no matter how many actions you get. I put that same number into each phase
Kagetenshi
So how fast you react changes how fast you run? A Quickness 1 person with Initiative 51 can run as fast as a Quickness 6 Initiative 8 person?

~J
lorthazar
Yeah, but he tends to trip more often.
Bigity
Ugh, just say he can move .1 meters per phase or whatever.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (lorthazar)
yeah according to many people you move only so far each turn no matter how many actions you get. I put that same number into each phase

PC=A, Init=34, Q=8:

He gets to move 2 during P1=34, P2=24, P3=14, P4=4.

PC=B, Init=12, Q=6

He gets to move 2 on any 2 Combat Phases and 1 on the other 2 remaining (but he only gets to do something during 2 of the 4 Combat Phases).

This is how we do it, so you'd just distribute B's 6 movement over the 2 Combat Phases? Is that what you are saying?
Bigity
Hm.

I forgot about cyber/bio stress frequently, as well as knockdown.

I also tend to forget vehicle stress. I usually ignore the SOTA rules for deckers.

I let magicians "upgrade" spells for less karma, but the TN is still the same.

I don't like the healing time changes due to major cyberware/bioware implants, but I normally factor it in if someone reminds me.

I allow CG purchased foci to be bonded for free, but to a total max force of 6.

I don't allow shapeshifters or drakes.

I don't use MIJI and often just leave out all rigger electronic warfare/jamming stuff out as well. Maybe if rigging was a bigger part of the current game or something, I'd use it more.
lorthazar
Actually group I had learned to play with a person with Q=8 and Init=31 would be able to move 8 at 31,21,11,and 1 for 32 meters in 3 seconds and that is whithout running.
Kagetenshi
I do so love being able to walk just under 24 miles per hour and run at about 71 MPH.

~J
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Actually group I had learned to play with a person with Q=8 and Init=31 would be able to move 8 at 31,21,11,and 1 for 32 meters in 3 seconds and that is whithout running.

You used to be able to move your Q per Combat Phase in SR2, but thankfully that changed in SR3 to more realistic speeds.
lorthazar
realistic to whom!
John Campbell
I tore the entire "Martial Arts" section out of CC and set it on fire.
Kagetenshi
To me, for instance. Check out my calculation of the rate of travel of your example immediately above that post.

~J
lorthazar
Well then by your logic you should only be able to fire twice with a SA weapon, fire two bursts, or one FA, but we spread it throught your 4 actions.
Tarantula
Theres a great deal of difference of being fast enough to point and pull a trigger repeatedly in 6 seconds, and move 32 meters in 6 seconds.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (John Campbell)
I tore the entire "Martial Arts" section out of CC and set it on fire.

It's not that bad though, atleast it adds some flavor to melee combat.
lorthazar
Not really, if you can send the signals to the system fast enough you can do quite a bit. It all a matter of how hfast the nuerotransmitters are working. of course if you consistantly got 4 actions you would be tired 4 times as fast.
John Campbell
If someone with one action points an LMG downrange and holds the trigger down for three seconds, it'll fire ten rounds. If someone with four actions does the same thing, it'll fire forty rounds. What sense does that make?
lorthazar
Actually if you are just as one player put it 'blasting away with no reason' I rull that the gun has an init of 51 and fires in an ever climbing straight line on each phase
GrinderTheTroll
Here's that "gotta add realisim part" I was referencing earlier. wobble.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (John Campbell)
If someone with one action points an LMG downrange and holds the trigger down for three seconds, it'll fire ten rounds. If someone with four actions does the same thing, it'll fire forty rounds. What sense does that make?

Makes plenty of sense assuming that they are not, as you state, "holding the trigger down". Some new rules for just hosing even more generally than suppressive fire would be nice, but the rules in place are incomplete rather than wrong.

~J
Tarantula
QUOTE (John Campbell)
If someone with one action points an LMG downrange and holds the trigger down for three seconds, it'll fire ten rounds. If someone with four actions does the same thing, it'll fire forty rounds. What sense does that make?

No, both of those would be covered under supressive fire. Burst is in fact, a 3 round aimed burst, full auto is a 6 round burst, a bit of a misnomer, but it isn't exactly full auto. Look at the rotary cannons which actually fire full auto, they have a set rate of ammo per round they shoot.
Cable
Seems that knockdown and strress are the two most often ignored rules. Heck, we ignore 'em to. Knockdown is a fun one, but just to laborsome to roll every time, and stress is just to cumbersome for the heavy cybertypes.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Cable)
Seems that knockdown and strress are the two most often ignored rules. Heck, we ignore 'em to. Knockdown is a fun one, but just to laborsome to roll every time, and stress is just to cumbersome for the heavy cybertypes.

Once my players realized they could knock people down, they remind me to do knockdown!
mintcar
Jepp. Stress rules and knockdown go out the window. Electronic warfare would be nice to master, but itīs one to many complex systems of "games in games". I handle it without rolls most of the time. Just compare the ratings. And if players want a chance to interfluence the outcome I let them make an opposed test with some appropriate ratings or skills. (ratings I deem important, that is) Iīve just started to keep tabs on upkeep of contacts, but I tend to make it a bit more flexible. Between every major chapter in the story, when some time is passing, the players get to roll charisma + karma pool, TN number of contacts. Each success means free upkeep a contact. The rest will need some kind of gift or service (that is karma or money). This can be vaguely played out between me and the player, so that thereīs a sense of contacts being real people, which seems important to me. I collect lifestyle payments and a made up sum of money for equipment repairs and upgrades. I donīt like to dig through the books for rules about stuff like that.
Voran
Disliked the wound/stress/healing rules from Man and Machine. Knockdown also doesn't tend to be used.

Martial Arts rules from CC were "meh" to me. Then I just decided to apply that to melee weapons too and let you get some synergy dice when using a melee skill and a unarmed skill at the same time. My reasoning, if I'm a uberleet knife user AND I dunno...a brawling expert, I should be more dangerous when using a knife in melee combat, as I'm not only trying to stab/slash you, I'm trying to pummel you.
U_Fester
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'm spotty on Stress, too, which is very bad of me.

I have to admit that I forget about stress as well
FrostyNSO
- No Stress Points
- No Knockdown
- No Electronic Warfare
- No Manuever Score
- Let characters "upgrade" spells
- Don't worry about contact upkeep unless they actually start neglecting them (contacts are a big part of our game)
iPad
All this sounds familiar.

On the walking running thing, I noticed the other day that ED has the speeds about right, ie. a fit human should be able to do 100M in 10 seconds. With Shadow Run this goes wierd as your playing a super human usually and the way speed is worked out is alot more dynamic. I think the maximum speed a souped up wierd reflexes person should be able to get to is about 60mph as the rest of the body would burnout as it fails to get oxygen and energy in and heat out.
U_Fester
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Don't worry about contact upkeep unless they actually start neglecting them (contacts are a big part of our game)

My characters can't either:
A: stop from killing their contacts
B: killing each other
C: killing each other
D: killing.... you get the pitcure.
FrostyNSO
Have you tried having them generate their characters at the same time, with the premise that they are good friends who have known eachother a long time?

That might help with the killing eachother thing.

Also, with the contacts, have a contact hook the players up with something they would like and then have him offer them a job. Keep this guy around (always Mr. Friendly), and as long as the players behave themselves keep hooking up the perks.

I don't allow the wholesale murder of contacts, pretty soon people start to know your reputation, and start going after you.
FrostyNSO
We tried the 'make them together' theory once and the characters were great friends. Still fistfights or sometimes gunfire would occur (this usually due to the characters' alcohol problems, <drinking buddies>). But after all was said and done, the characters' would give their injured buddies a lift to the street doc and everyone would pitch in on the bill.

One thing I have also found helps is this :

Sometimes we have a little 'arena' before we start playing. Like "Hey lets see if I can waste you."

This helps get the killing of your buddies for fun out of the players' system.
U_Fester
QUOTE
Have you tried having them generate their characters at the same time, with the premise that they are good friends who have known eachother a long time?  That might help with the killing eachother thing.


Yep, but it still doesn't work.

QUOTE
Also, with the contacts, have a contact hook the players up with something they would like and then have him offer them a job.  Keep this guy around (always Mr. Friendly), and as long as the players behave themselves keep hooking up the perks.


Tried this, but greed keeps getting in the way.

QUOTE
I don't allow the wholesale murder of contacts, pretty soon people start to know your reputation, and start going after you.


It isn't that they are killing their own contacts, they keep killing each others... I think they are all paort of the Manson or Bundy Families.
FrostyNSO
You could try letting one of them GM?

Or find more mature players?
U_Fester
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
You could try letting one of them GM?

Tired this one, but death is still flowed.
Deadeye
Sorry 'bout that, Doc, it wasn't a misreading, just a quick typing error with a brain fart before I ran to work. Yeah, I was referring to the magic thing, but also the bio overstress in general. I used to dump the longer healing but have started to keep an eye on it now since I realized how I was more or less ignoring the auto-stress on the bioware when it exceeded the essence rating. Ehh.
algcs
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
You could try letting one of them GM?

He did. I ran the game. Three suits had their copter hijacked by a Eco group that ditched it in the barrens and fled. They were hired to recover the suits asap. Part of the bio for one of the guys said that he had been the target for a failed extraction attempt by a guy called Tommy Gun(a 50 gangster poser). Tommy is just a dead end for the characters to track down. Player A has a mafia contact so they decide to give Tommy a little talking to. Mafia contact tells them Tommy is a changed man and didn't have nothing to do with it. AND if the talk to Tommy he better not get hurt as his uncle is a big shot.

An hour later Tommy is in the back of a strip mall getting stabbed in the head. Thanks to some bad rolls and someone taking the vindictive flaw. A med kit and a few really bad bio-tech rolls left the party stumped so they applied a couple of trama patchs and a stim patch or two. All this occurred after some of the party tear gassed Tommy's apartment and then shot him up with some traquilzers.

So they rush to a no questions asked motel and had a street doc(Contact that a player sells body parts to) that owed them a favor meet them. Argument breaks out about who is going to pay for the treatment. Player A and player B get into a fist fight so Player C shoots Player B over a grudge. Doc stabalizes Player B and says he needs to get him to a hospital. Argument breaks out over who is going to pay for it. Doc says forget about it just put him in my car we'll talk about it later. Ten minutes later Doc calls to say player B didn't make it and he has a liver for sale cheap.
Fortune
I occasionally use the Stress rules, but ignore the 'last point can't be fixed' caveat.

It isn't so much that I ignore certain rules, but rather that I substitute a few house rules where I think they fit better than the canon.
U_Fester
QUOTE (algcs)
Player A and player B get into a fist fight so Player C shoots Player B over a grudge.

Let’s not forget why Player C shoots Player B. In the previous run, Player C wants to keep an unarmed 60+ research scientist alive to sell on the black market. Player B wants to wing him to make him more appreciative of the situation he is in. Doe he use a holdout, heck does he use a Man-Hunter. No he uses an Ares Sliver Gun with full combat pool. We are talking a 9S on Burst Fire to unarmored legs. Even with a called shot, he rolls 10 successes.

Needless to say the scientist did not make it. Player C was so angry that he hit him with a stun baton in the back of the head and was about to finish him off when he was interrupted by building security.

And these two characters were buddy characters.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (U_Fester @ Dec 6 2004, 10:57 PM)
I think they are all paort of the Manson or Bundy Families.

Does one of them have the flaw Day Job: Shoe Salesman? biggrin.gif
FrostyNSO
Wrong Bundy familiy =)

How old (on the average) is your group? If you don't mind my asking.

I thought our group had bad chemistry at times, but nothing like this!
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