Full Version: Digital piracy in SR
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Dec 20 2004, 05:58 AM) | ||
Sorry kesh but why not? Non lethal black IC or psychotropic IC are good ways to fuck with a music pirate even Black death makes the p2p a lot scarier and before you tell me about bad publicity tell me how it can be traced to a specific corp |
Most music pirates would not' be running hot ASIST.
They'd most likely be teenagers and college students, not deckers.
A sting? on an extraterritorial Singapore holding company?
| QUOTE (kanada ten) |
| I've never found anything I was looking for in a reasonable amount of time and been happy with the "product". |
the wild success of p2p networks would indicate that you're in the vast minority. if p2p downloading didn't work, and work relatively well, we wouldn't be having this dicussion at all, because p2p networks wouldn't have become popular enough to affect modern--and possibly future--computing. ergo, j00 4r3 n07 31337!
as others have pointed out, most filesharers are not going to be hot ASIST-using deckers. they're going to be, at best, cold ASIST-users, and more than likely a large number of glove-and-goggle-users. and, honestly? if i were a decker, i wouldn't waste my time searching for music downloads. i'd write a frame to do it for me. so the black IC isn't going to catch too many deckers, either. for these reasons, if no others, the next person to mention black IC as a viable deterrent to filesharing gets a free boot to the teeth.
now, tar baby/tar pit? i can see that working. still illegal, still likely to cause lots of unintended property damage that will make heads roll, but less likely to cause a massive uproar when it kills some rich 12-year old kid who wants to grow up to be a programmer like daddy. as a corporation, though, i'd be careful with that sort of thing. remember, all IC is illegal, and uploading IC for the purpose of having it downloaded and spread to other hosts will very possibly bring the wrath of the virus-paranoid CC down on your company. yes, 9 times out of 10, a megacorp will avoid excessive damages by claiming ignorance--"it was a lone madman in a subsidiary" or some such. but that 10th time, they're going to get smacked very hard. to me, it wouldn't be worth doing very often.
| QUOTE (Kesh) |
| I wish people would get off the 'Black Ice disgused as a song' thing. No, a corp wouldn't be dumb enough to try that. |
Do you really think it would take a corp to toss a Black Death file up on a network (whether servered or serverless) disguised as the latest simflick?
~J
congrats! you are entitled to one free kick in the teeth.
| QUOTE |
| Do you really think it would take a corp to toss a Black Death file up on a network (whether servered or serverless) disguised as the latest simflick? |
And give deckers good code to create protections against? Think about it, if deckers don't load good code (aka high rated programs) onto sharenets because it makes them less effective (drops the rating), why the fuck would corps who make huge profits on IC programming do so? It's stupid, backwards, ineffective and lame. They can't possibly find enough hosts and have their file downloaded by enough people to be more than an annoyance. The second those l33t programs hurt one person, ten people will be dissecting the code and turning it against the corps. Brilliant.
| QUOTE |
| A sting? on an extraterritorial Singapore holding company? |
Corporate Court, Grid Overwatch Division, pissing off deckers, hurting only a tiny fractions of computers, and you want them to perform hoops of work, waste good code, and risk exposure for what is known to be a minor problem in 2060? Bulldrek. At best they'll load viruses and worms, and trace software.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 20 2004, 11:47 AM) |
| as others have pointed out, most filesharers are not going to be hot ASIST-using deckers. they're going to be, at best, cold ASIST-users, and more than likely a large number of glove-and-goggle-users. |
And 'trodes. Always with the trodes!
It'd be some jerk independent decker or someone who did the uploading of killer progs. Imagine the same people now who on filesharing stuff relabel their downloads when they are in fact something else and get giggles when someone ends up with Homosexual Donkey Porn instead of that Paris Hilton vid they were looking for.
Does the Matrix book give an indication of how many real deckers there are out there? I don't think there are that many, possibly less than magicians even.
You may not have to load top of the line IC to screw with pirates. Weighing it, you'd probably go with something middle of the road and in bulk. It'd be enough to get the casual wannabes (which I really think make the core of the 'pirates') and spread out enough that, while sure a 'real' decker could make mincemeat of it, its spread around so many locations and in places 'real' deckers aren't as likely to hang out, that it sorta takes out the group its supposed to, the poser pirates who think they're real deckers.
SSG mentions how the typical home appliances, much less the vidphone/trideo/computer terminal have manufacturer installed Spyware that routinely monitors and spits back to the corp what you've been doing with your gear. Add that to the likelihood that the computer unit is on and accessible 24 hours a day. It largely goes unnoticed by the consumer, or flat out allowed, because corp PR has made it seem this Spyware is in fact some sorta incentive that allows the corp the honor of doing more personalized business with you.
I'd say if you're doing your piracy on a store bought home unit, its going to get caught. If you're doing your piracy from you Fairlight Excalibur....what the hell are you doing wasting your time pirating stuff instead of going for really worthwhile paydata?
Does the Matrix book give an indication of how many real deckers there are out there? I don't think there are that many, possibly less than magicians even.
You may not have to load top of the line IC to screw with pirates. Weighing it, you'd probably go with something middle of the road and in bulk. It'd be enough to get the casual wannabes (which I really think make the core of the 'pirates') and spread out enough that, while sure a 'real' decker could make mincemeat of it, its spread around so many locations and in places 'real' deckers aren't as likely to hang out, that it sorta takes out the group its supposed to, the poser pirates who think they're real deckers.
SSG mentions how the typical home appliances, much less the vidphone/trideo/computer terminal have manufacturer installed Spyware that routinely monitors and spits back to the corp what you've been doing with your gear. Add that to the likelihood that the computer unit is on and accessible 24 hours a day. It largely goes unnoticed by the consumer, or flat out allowed, because corp PR has made it seem this Spyware is in fact some sorta incentive that allows the corp the honor of doing more personalized business with you.
I'd say if you're doing your piracy on a store bought home unit, its going to get caught. If you're doing your piracy from you Fairlight Excalibur....what the hell are you doing wasting your time pirating stuff instead of going for really worthwhile paydata?
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Dec 20 2004, 05:30 PM) |
| Think about it, if deckers don't load good code (aka high rated programs) onto sharenets because it makes them less effective (drops the rating), why the fuck would corps who make huge profits on IC programming do so? |
Reading comprehension time. Take another look. Why would it take a corp for Black Death (the BTL type, not IC) to end up on the network? Non-corps seem to make other BTL types just fine.
And mfb, no one fucking well watches a simflick through cold ASIST. Much the way people don't tend to watch movies with earplugs or one eye closed and the other covered with thin gauze.
~J
Street kids can disable the transponder in their hot rods, corp kids can disable the spyware in their desktop - you don't want mommy knowing where your going in either case. I'm sorely disappointed by the lack of innovation ascribed to children on this board.
| QUOTE |
| Weighing it, you'd probably go with something middle of the road and in bulk. It'd be enough to get the casual wannabes (which I really think make the core of the 'pirates') and spread out enough that, while sure a 'real' decker could make mincemeat of it, its spread around so many locations and in places 'real' deckers aren't as likely to hang out, that it sorta takes out the group its supposed to, the poser pirates who think they're real deckers. |
Well, real deckers come from somewhere and start with something, why not media piracy? Seriously, the only way to find illegal sharenets is to monitor millions and millions of chatrooms constantly and decode the latest 'Trix slang; then you've got to discreetly put files on in such a way that others - and enough others will download them (you do only download from people you know, right?). Then you've got to wait to see what effect you've had while still trying to do the same in other places. Meanwhile they scan the files and spot the malicious one, who's code is then spread to the other sharenets, which are then protected from your first attempt - meaning you need multiple uniquely coded programs to affect more than a single user on a few sharenets. I just don't see that as worthwhile.
| QUOTE (Voran) |
| It'd be some jerk independent decker or someone who did the uploading of killer progs. Imagine the same people now who on filesharing stuff relabel their downloads when they are in fact something else and get giggles when someone ends up with Homosexual Donkey Porn instead of that Paris Hilton vid they were looking for. |
What p2p are you using?
| QUOTE |
Does the Matrix book give an indication of how many real deckers there are out there? I don't think there are that many, possibly less than magicians even. |
Yeah, that's the thing. All the references to the Matrix, and the very existence of non-decker shadowtalk imply a pervasive full-immersion ASIST presence (even if it's cold). But... cyberdecks are ridiculously expensive, which makes me wonder how the Hell the civilized world is wired 24/7 and able to make things like virtual bars, clubs and even brothels (which, btw, is really pathetic) profitable.
It's best not to think about it. Otherwise logic kills this game.
| QUOTE |
SSG mentions how the typical home appliances, much less the vidphone/trideo/computer terminal have manufacturer installed Spyware that routinely monitors and spits back to the corp what you've been doing with your gear. Add that to the likelihood that the computer unit is on and accessible 24 hours a day. It largely goes unnoticed by the consumer, or flat out allowed, because corp PR has made it seem this Spyware is in fact some sorta incentive that allows the corp the honor of doing more personalized business with you. |
Which is how most people would be punished for copyright infringement (as opposed to piracy, which is not what your average p2p user is doing)--their toaster tattles on them, and their company just deducts it from their paycheck as part of a "morals clause"--something the corp won't like if it owns media corps, but something which, 99% of the time, isn't worth shitcanning someone.
That is, while most people are more tech saavy in the worlds mfb and I (that I know of) play in, there is still the simple fact that people are not purely rational consumers. Hell, everyone in my RL family is more tech saavy than average, but I still have yet to convince someone why to 1) not use IE, and 2) uninstall that bastard program completely (not that MS makes it easy). But then people slip, or they don't think burning a co-workers chips of some music is going to get them ratted out by their toaster!
| QUOTE |
I'd say if you're doing your piracy on a store bought home unit, its going to get caught. If you're doing your piracy from you Fairlight Excalibur....what the hell are you doing wasting your time pirating stuff instead of going for really worthwhile paydata? |
I'd say, how did you afford your Fairlight (or any deck)? Did you get a 30-year adjustable rate mortage commensurate for the one for your house? At least IRL the fact that the average length of occupancy is 7 years in a single-family U.S. home, and you can re-sell the house (and depending on where you live, at a steep profit) and buy something better for the next 7 years. Who is going to buy a 7 year-old Fairlight? A 30? And they're not like high-end cars, either, because those generally have a cachet that most tech won't in 2060. But even then, how many people do you know who can afford to buy an original Ford GT350? What kind of loan terms is that going to setback someone who isn't already loaded?
Simple logic dictates that cyberdecks can't be ubiquitous while also being priced far beyond the reach of most consumers. But, like I said, logic kills this game if you focus on it too much.
At least CP2020 made their decks reasonably priced.
| QUOTE |
| And mfb, no one fucking well watches a simflick through cold ASIST. Much the way people don't tend to watch movies with earplugs or one eye closed and the other covered with thin gauze. |
Bulldrek, you have to mod your player to get hot ASIST as is, so only BTL users are going to get hit.
| QUOTE |
| Why would it take a corp for Black Death (the BTL type, not IC) to end up on the network? Non-corps seem to make other BTL types just fine. |
Sorry, still don't get it. Why would it take a corp for? Does that make sense?
Why would a corp need to be the ones putting the stuff out? The network can be poisoned quite well without corporations ever dirtying their hands, and a Black Death BTL will look much like the simflick that someone is trying to download.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Why would a corp need to be the ones putting the stuff out? The network can be poisoned quite well without corporations ever dirtying their hands, and a Black Death BTL will look much like the simflick that someone is trying to download. |
Gottcha. That will happen far more often than corps wasting their time with it. Some viruses probably piggy back on file transfers as is.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| And mfb, no one fucking well watches a simflick through cold ASIST. |
you may want to re-read the books, before you go spouting off. hot ASIST is illegal. all legal simsense has peak controls that keep it at cold ASIST levels.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Why would a corp need to be the ones putting the stuff out? |
maybe because things like black death BTLs are expensive and time-consuming to create, and most people don't like expending that level of resources without some sort of compensation? you can't just upload one copy of black death disguised as a pr0n sim, and expect that to send p2p networks crashing into oblivion as users flee to legitimate services by the boatload. you have to make the possibility of getting black deathed through p2p a common enough occurance for people to be afraid of it. lone, unconnected hackers aren't going to do that often enough to scare many users away from p2p networks, because there's no percentage in it--they'd have to be sociopaths and elite programmers. there aren't all that many sociopaths, and there aren't many elite programmers; ergo there probably aren't all that many sociopathic elite programmers who get their jollies uploading lethal code to p2p networks.
if you're talking about corporations using shadow connections to do so, it's not going to work in the long-term. that many shadow deckers, contacted through that many johnsons, spread out over that many corporations? it'd be a secret for about five seconds, after which there'd be a huge mess.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Dec 19 2004, 08:58 PM) | ||
Sorry kesh but why not? Non lethal black IC or psychotropic IC are good ways to fuck with a music pirate even Black death makes the p2p a lot scarier and before you tell me about bad publicity tell me how it can be traced to a specific corp |
On your first point, why would anyone bother with non-lethal black ice for this purpose? And even if they did, it sends an ASIST-enabled user unconscious... which means they could fall out of their chair (or just fall over, if standing up) and injure themselves. Lawsuit time.
Given that most file-sharers won't be using hot ASIST, the code would be practically useless anyway. A Blaster would make more sense but, again, causes damage that can be measured financially. That's why I suggested Tar programs.
Second, why is the burden on me to provide computer forensics details for 2064? Suffice to say, if someone gets gacked or seriously injured by a black-ice-enabled music file they downloaded, the cops & families will be doing their utmost to find out who the irresponsible git that did it was. And it only takes one person with money to hire a good decker to investigate the matter.
If it turns out untraceable, there will likely be an assumption that it was by the SR 2064 equivalent of the MPAA or the ownership company of the musician.
Any way you slice it, a corp would find it a high-risk gamble to do such a thing. Some may be willing, but I'd be shocked if it's more than one or two incidents total. Just enough for urban-legend status. And simply starting an urban legend is a lot more cost-efficient than actually doing it!
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Do you really think it would take a corp to toss a Black Death file up on a network (whether servered or serverless) disguised as the latest simflick? ~J |
Oh, not at all! In fact, I could picture some nutcase serial killer using this as his preferred method. That's a plot idea right there.
However, the topic was corporations doing it, and that's what my post was directed towards.
serial killing by IC has already been done. they caught him, i believe, as of SOTA:64.
here's what gets me about this black-IC-as-filesharing-deterrent stupidity. on the one hand, we've got people saying that the people doing the filesharing are too stupid to know the diff between black IC and mp3s. on the other--and i'm not gonna swear it's the same people, because a) i'm to lazy to collate posts and b) i'm making an effort to not directly call anyone an idiot--you've got people saying that most/all filesharers are using hot ASIST. hot ASIST for Matrix surfing means the surfer is a decker, who necessarily does know more than enough about computers to differentiate between black IC and a god damn mp3.
you can't have it both ways, people. either most filesharers are computer-illiterate AOLers, or they're hot ASIST-using deckers. either way? nobody has anything to fear from black IC disguised as music, which means nobody with two ounces of sense is going to try to use it as a deterrent to p2p filesharing.
just a little bit of thinking, before you people post this stupid crap. that's all i ask.
here's what gets me about this black-IC-as-filesharing-deterrent stupidity. on the one hand, we've got people saying that the people doing the filesharing are too stupid to know the diff between black IC and mp3s. on the other--and i'm not gonna swear it's the same people, because a) i'm to lazy to collate posts and b) i'm making an effort to not directly call anyone an idiot--you've got people saying that most/all filesharers are using hot ASIST. hot ASIST for Matrix surfing means the surfer is a decker, who necessarily does know more than enough about computers to differentiate between black IC and a god damn mp3.
you can't have it both ways, people. either most filesharers are computer-illiterate AOLers, or they're hot ASIST-using deckers. either way? nobody has anything to fear from black IC disguised as music, which means nobody with two ounces of sense is going to try to use it as a deterrent to p2p filesharing.
just a little bit of thinking, before you people post this stupid crap. that's all i ask.
better to use psycotropic ic or something then as those work even over a cold asist. condition the people to think that p2p is bad and that corp is good or something 
hell, if you spread the rumor that you can be killed by useing p2p and people start to take notice and complain to their representative to make it illegal or controled or something
allso, to block p2p traffic you dont monitor to find out who sends it but filter the traffic to drop the packages that contain p2p traffic. this can to a degree be done today (blocking known p2p ports. yes one can reconfigure but that means telling everyone to do so and that means that the "enemy" will know so to, turning it into a arms race of sorts), and by channeling all known traffic tru a low number of channels one have even more control. its just that now most isps are only provideing a connection to the net, they cant be sued over how its used.
allso, when useing a asist system one can only be in one place at one time. one cant like now have 101 websites open, 300 ssh connections to diffrent servers open or anything like that. somewhat odd maybe but it fits into the idea to remake the computer in a more fitting image as it then makes it simpler to trace who is doing what and allso removes some of the ability of zombie systems.
there is allso little known about software distrobution in sr outside of softs and utilitys. given that when you access a host with a legal login you get access to operations without useing utilitys one can gather that utilitys are not needed for normal operations. how about 99% of the software are either webservices or rented of some host somewhere? what if the os of sr is a glorified browser?
hell, if you spread the rumor that you can be killed by useing p2p and people start to take notice and complain to their representative to make it illegal or controled or something
allso, to block p2p traffic you dont monitor to find out who sends it but filter the traffic to drop the packages that contain p2p traffic. this can to a degree be done today (blocking known p2p ports. yes one can reconfigure but that means telling everyone to do so and that means that the "enemy" will know so to, turning it into a arms race of sorts), and by channeling all known traffic tru a low number of channels one have even more control. its just that now most isps are only provideing a connection to the net, they cant be sued over how its used.
allso, when useing a asist system one can only be in one place at one time. one cant like now have 101 websites open, 300 ssh connections to diffrent servers open or anything like that. somewhat odd maybe but it fits into the idea to remake the computer in a more fitting image as it then makes it simpler to trace who is doing what and allso removes some of the ability of zombie systems.
there is allso little known about software distrobution in sr outside of softs and utilitys. given that when you access a host with a legal login you get access to operations without useing utilitys one can gather that utilitys are not needed for normal operations. how about 99% of the software are either webservices or rented of some host somewhere? what if the os of sr is a glorified browser?
psychotropic black IC is one possibility, but how many corporations are willing to just hand out copies of their psychotropic IC (or their regular black IC, for that matter) for free? that stuff is expensive to develop; i don't see anyone who's sunk that level of resources into something just throwing it out on the net for any decker (or other corporation) to download and reverse-engineer. and, like i said above, anybody who wants to use illegal stuff like IC as a deterrent has a choice: they can either do it once or twice through deniable assets in order to not get caught, or they can do it lots and lots of times and probably get caught red-handed. if they do it rarely, it's not going to have an effect on p2p networks because relatively few people will be affected. if they do it lots of times and get caught, they're in serious legal trouble.
you can surf multiple Matrix very easily by using frames.
you can surf multiple Matrix very easily by using frames.
but frames are indepentet entitys, yes you can send them of and let them do their job but they are more like proto-ai (or decker spirits) then a dumb app. and they are a bitch to make. some hosts use smart frames as internal seach systems tho...
basicly they are not for the common man and will be taken apart by most hosts defences unless your one realy competent decker.
and you dont activly control them unless they are in the same host as you, send them outside of the host and you have no real control over what they do except the task given when they leave.
basicly they are not for the common man and will be taken apart by most hosts defences unless your one realy competent decker.
and you dont activly control them unless they are in the same host as you, send them outside of the host and you have no real control over what they do except the task given when they leave.
make 'em? heck, my non-deckers just shell out some cash and buy 'em. you only need to buy one, and then upload multiple copies. they can't do your hacking, sure, but for stuff like crawling the Matrix in search of music downloads? they're perfect. i'd say they're pretty common among medium-proficiency Matrix users (not UCASOLers, but not deckers); in 2XS, Dirk used them pretty regularly without making it seem like anything special.
heh, i would not allow some two-bit user to download a frame i have made. i would rather set up a rented service where you pay for every task you ask them to do.
allso, can you upload multiple versions of the same frame? cant recall rules saying either way from matrix...
allso, can you upload multiple versions of the same frame? cant recall rules saying either way from matrix...
there's nothing that says you can't. running a frame is just a matter of logging onto a system and uploading it; if a system can run multiple copies of a single piece of IC, i don't see why they couldn't run multiple copies of a single frame.
i'm not talking about downloading frames, though. i'm talking about buying one, and then using it to download songs/movies/whatever. a frame is just a program; you can buy one just like you'd buy a Sleaze utility.
i'm not talking about downloading frames, though. i'm talking about buying one, and then using it to download songs/movies/whatever. a frame is just a program; you can buy one just like you'd buy a Sleaze utility.
givne that said frame is going to be used for datamineing then one may as well set up a rental host for it and rent em out rather then sell it.
with better matrix links and allways on connections, more and more taskcenterd apps will be rented rather then downloaded or bought shrinkwraped. there is more money that way. and given that a frame can be stored on a host you can allways access it, even useing a cellphone to give it orders (call it,tell it what to look for and where to dump the result).
it makes less and less sense with better and better links to have software permanently installed on a device. at best the stuff you have installed is a dumb gui that cant do a thing unless you have access to the host-side bits that do the hard work...
with better matrix links and allways on connections, more and more taskcenterd apps will be rented rather then downloaded or bought shrinkwraped. there is more money that way. and given that a frame can be stored on a host you can allways access it, even useing a cellphone to give it orders (call it,tell it what to look for and where to dump the result).
it makes less and less sense with better and better links to have software permanently installed on a device. at best the stuff you have installed is a dumb gui that cant do a thing unless you have access to the host-side bits that do the hard work...
sure. i can see a programming option that deletes the program after x number of uses, or x amount of time.
kinda like shareware today that locks you out after about 30 days of use or there about. there is a bit of a war going on between crackers and shareware coders...
also like the BTL option, in CC.
ah, must have forgotten about that one. yet another reason why chips are better then cds. they are trying to get this to work on cds, but so far all they have are a timed burnout after first pass of the reading laser.
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