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DeadNeon
I personally never gave this much thought until one of my players asked me, so i figured i'd ask everyone here what they think.

According to SRComp, the flashback flaw, once triggered, last for 1D6 rounds. Does the rule of six apply to this?
Lindt
Im a bitch, and say yes. Flashbacks is a steep flaw.
Kagetenshi
The answer is no. However, if you'll reread, that's minutes, not rounds.

~J
BitBasher
...And minutes is an absolute eternity.
DeadNeon
Thanks for the correction Kagetenshi. Makes a little more sense now.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jan 4 2005, 12:56 PM)
...And minutes is an absolute eternity.

Indeed. With regards to combat or most other time-sensitive situations, the character may as well have taken a gel round from a Panther Assault Cannon (gel round as big as a man's head), only they won't be as easy to carry. Also no guarantee that it will be quiet.

~J
Jrayjoker
I had a character with this flaw for about ten minutes of gametime once. Man did that stink. I personally will never take it again because the guy who GMs when I don't hits the flaws hard and practically ignores any edges.
Lindt
Crap, its MINUTES?!? Never mind then man behind the curten then. Its bad enough as is!
Jrayjoker
Yeah, nothing like 10-360 combat rounds of dying.
BitBasher
Nitpick, one minute is 20 combat rounds, so it's 20-120 combat rounds biggrin.gif
Jrayjoker
Can you tell I've been playing D20 for a while now?
HMHVV Hunter
I've never had it triggered before, but I always thought the Flashbacks flaw could be incredibly compelling if it's handled correctly. A good example of what I'm thinking about would be Wolverine's flashbacks from the X-Men movies, and that's how I've always pictured them as.

In my opinion, the flaw should be more for story purposes than to allow a sadistic NPC a sitting duck target. A GM that uses it like that regularly I would probably see as a bit asshole-ish.
BitBasher
QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)
I've never had it triggered before, but I always thought the Flashbacks flaw could be incredibly compelling if it's handled correctly. A good example of what I'm thinking about would be Wolverine's flashbacks from the X-Men movies, and that's how I've always pictured them as.

In my opinion, the flaw should be more for story purposes than to allow a sadistic NPC a sitting duck target. A GM that uses it like that regularly I would probably see as a bit asshole-ish.

if that's the case then you shouldn't get the rather heinous point value that it's worth. That flaw IS a dehabilitating flaw and it even says in the description that it should come up once or twice per game session.
Jrayjoker
I don't think my GM was sadistic, I just had a flashback at a really bad time.
Ronin Soul
I have always found that flaw to be a bit severe even though it is stated as being one hell of a flaw. Now, triggering such a flaw IN COMBAT is downright evil, and personally I think that one should skip the minutes rule. A normal battle is over within 2-5 combat rounds mostly and having a character missing the entire combat, and probably, dying in the process is just plain wrong.

My solution? The character looses 1D6 combat rounds instead of minutes if somthing of a combat is a triggering factor and use minutes when they are out of combat. It speeds things up and the situation will STILL be very, very deadly for a character since missing one or two combat rounds without even the chance to dodge is just suicidal.

The Jopp
BitBasher
How bout if you arent willing to suffer the consequences then don't take the flaw? smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Indeed. I'd bump the value of the flaw up, personally, but leave it with just as many teeth.

~J
Jrayjoker
You could also discuss a trigger with the GM and not get into combat when it is likely to occur....
Kagetenshi
Generally getting into combat is something done involuntarily. Voluntary combat should optimally be a slaughter.

~J
Mugzy
Man this flaw would be just as bad if the trigger were guys in suits.

Right in the middle of a meet... the shellshocked street sam goes catatonic, or starts seeing the Johnson as a bad guy from some war.

Talk about your social fubars
noneuklid
Typically, combat flashbacks occuring during combat will not render the character helpless- they'll just impose images of their remembered enemies over their actual enemies. The flashbacks don't have to be a total and full immersion experience- just dehabilitatingly different than reality (for instance, if the flashback makes the character remember a time when he was surrounded by enemies, and half the characters around him are actually friends...)
Kagetenshi
Typically, combat flashbacks occuring during combat will not render the character helpless- they'll just impose images of their remembered enemies over their actual enemies.

And their friends, and that guy over there, and the toaster oven.

As far as I'm concerned, once you can no longer act on the situation you are helpless. What does it matter if you're gunning people down left and right if half the people are on your team? More, likely, as they're probably going to be in closer proximity and thus a higher threat.

~J
toturi
The game mechanics for Flashbacks is that the PC is incapacitated and cannot do anything useful. A PC with Flashback needs to fail a Will(6); like any other test, you could use up a Karma to reroll.
Kagetenshi
Toturi brings up a good point; even negative effects are houserules of the flaw as it exists.

~J
Sandoval Smith
I can't imagine a GM letting you take flashbacks as a flaw without talking it over first, to lay down what the triggers are. A bad GM will use it whenever he feels it will be fun to screw over your character.

GM: A puppy wanders through the combat zone, and is torn apart by the crossfire. Make the roll to see if you have flashbacks to that terrible incident of your youth.
Player: But we're on an Arc run!
GM: There can be puppies in the Arc.
Player: We're in the labyrinth! And this is the sixth time!
GM: Deus is messing with you.

I think it's a really bad idea to take flashbacks as something that can be commonly triggered in combat, and I hate when I see it abused for a munchkin. It can be very interesting to roleplay because A well thought out trigger often occurs at best (rp wise) of times, but OOC having a good chance of the character collapsing into quivering fits whenever someone fires a gun is just a really stupid thing to do.
Kagetenshi
One example of a trigger I chose at one point was whenever the character in question looked at static snow on a screen or similar (sufficiently hard rain could potentially qualify as well). This was a replacement of an earlier draft in which it kicked in whenever someone the character felt responsible towards (like a teammate known for any significant length of time) was badly wounded, which I felt to be too crippling.

~J
toturi
Well, I had a nice munchkinny trigger for my former prizefighter PC once upon a time: Deadly Stun.
Jaruen
I know I am really new here to the board, and so my opinion will count for nada, but I have been playing for quite a few years, and I have seen this flaw used really well. You guys seem to have talked almost exclusively about the effects of flashbacks during combat. When it was played in my games, with a real competent GM (not myself), it's effects could be felt throughout the campaign. It really doesn't help the group when the person doing the negotiations for the run all of a sudden slips under the table and starts whimpering because a tall gentleman in a suit puts on his sunglasses indoors. It really sucks when your B&E guy sees his long-dead elf mother while he is casing the building you are about to hit.
If you do decide to hit one of your runners with flashbacks during combat, don't assume that the time limit is no longer valid just because combat ends after 30 seconds. Think of how fun it will be for a combat mage and a decker to try to get your bruiser troll out of a recently shot-to-hell-soon-to-be-overrun-by-Lone-Star™ building. If your character fails a will save and you roll a six, then by goodness bring on the cavalry.
Jrayjoker
Maybe I should rethink taking flashback in your game.....Hmmmm

Actually, I am not too enamored of the flaw in general. I can see people with combat experience having it, and someone with major trauma in their lives, but most of my characters don't have a major trauma, just a tougher than average life...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
Well, I had a nice munchkinny trigger for my former prizefighter PC once upon a time: Deadly Stun.

Nice. I've always wanted to try playing with such a pussy GM -- geas all adept powers through Talisman: Brain, and if you ever need a geas for a mage/shaman/conjurer/sorcere you can always use Only When Alive.
Fortune
It's supposed to represent some major trauma in the character's life, over and above the norm.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Jaruen)
I know I am really new here to the board, and so my opinion will count for nada

Thanks for the faith in us frown.gif

You do bring up a point that wasn't lost in our minds (at least not mine) but was getting lost in the discussion. While it may be most immediately and rapidly crippling in combat, it's still far from benign at other times.

Jrayjoker: a valid point on the trauma thing. Like most high-value flaws, this really doesn't work without a concept. "I have flashbacks because... um, a kitten bit me when I was younger."

~J
Jrayjoker
Your sarcasm is refreshing. And I think deadly stun as a trigger would last about as long as the character with that trigger in my games...
Jrayjoker
Thanks for the kind words K.
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Nice. I've always wanted to try playing with such a pussy GM -- geas all adept powers through Talisman: Brain, and if you ever need a geas for a mage/shaman/conjurer/sorcere you can always use Only When Alive.

You realise that if you implant a SL, you'll be breaking your geas?

Or that when you use the word "when" in a geas it is becomes a time geas?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
You realise that if you implant a SL, you'll be breaking your geas?

No I don't, because I wouldn't. If the talisman is "a squishy, ripple-surfaced brain" (3 descriptors, as required for the geas), putting in a Smartlink, or even an Encephalon or Cerebral Booster, does not break the geas. Only destroying the brain (or one of the descriptors thereof, such as making the brain solid or smooth-surfaced) or removing it from the character's presence would break the geas.

QUOTE (toturi)
Or that when you use the word "when" in a geas it is becomes a time geas?

That's where the "pussy GM" bit comes into play.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)


And their friends, and that guy over there, and the toaster oven.



~J

What did you say abOUT MY TOASTER?!?!
Jrayjoker
My whole team would kill and die to protect an innocent toaster oven with flashbacks! He never did anything to anyone!
Traks
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
GM: A puppy wanders through the combat zone, and is torn apart by the crossfire. Make the roll to see if you have flashbacks to that terrible incident of your youth.
Player: But we're on an Arc run!
GM: There can be puppies in the Arc.
Player: We're in the labyrinth! And this is the sixth time!
GM: Deus is messing with you.


Mwahahaha. My players are in Arc, and one of them have flashback flaw.
I sent him this text via e-mail, just for fun of knowledge that he reads it.
Rajaat99
One of my players has flashbacks and it's been triggered about 4 times in 4 years of game play. Only once was in combat and it drew the characters togeather as they fought off the badguys, while protecting the downed character. It was intense.
Jrayjoker
That sounds like a reasonable use of the flaw, and your team must be very cohesive. However, I don't think it would qualify for the full flaw points if it only happened four times in four years. Your call though.
Crusher Bob
Depends on what four times, also it depends on what actions were taken to avoid the trigger in the first place.

If my char is allergic to sunlight, I won't go out in the day. If I define the flaw 'comming up' as actually being burned by then sun, it would be pretty rare. If I define the flaw in changing my characters avtivities then it happens a lot.
DocMortand
Nobody in my game is brave enough to take that flaw, unfortunately - it would be kinda cool to see how they react to certain stimuli, as well as making RP much more intense.

Of course, they probably are scared by it knowing that I tend to use people's flaws and edges if I can (1 hunted level 2 blew up two garages of a certain rigger, and combat monster tends to result in dead PCs for some reason - not by my doing, tho.)
toturi
QUOTE (DocMortand)
Nobody in my game is brave enough to take that flaw, unfortunately - it would be kinda cool to see how they react to certain stimuli, as well as making RP much more intense.

Of course, they probably are scared by it knowing that I tend to use people's flaws and edges if I can (1 hunted level 2 blew up two garages of a certain rigger, and combat monster tends to result in dead PCs for some reason - not by my doing, tho.)

As long as I get my Deadly Stun trigger, I won't mind taking that Flaw. cool.gif
Crusher Bob
Cows from orbit often do deadly stun...
DocMortand
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 9 2005, 11:45 PM)
QUOTE (DocMortand @ Jan 10 2005, 12:29 PM)
Nobody in my game is brave enough to take that flaw, unfortunately - it would be kinda cool to see how they react to certain stimuli, as well as making RP much more intense.

Of course, they probably are scared by it knowing that I tend to use people's flaws and edges if I can (1 hunted level 2 blew up two garages of a certain rigger, and combat monster tends to result in dead PCs for some reason - not by my doing, tho.)

As long as I get my Deadly Stun trigger, I won't mind taking that Flaw. cool.gif

Heh. Not in my game, you don't. *grin* Of course, I'm keeping the tech level down in my game too, as is my right by GM fiat. smile.gif

No "pussy GM" me. maybe in other areas tho...I'm just as blind as anyone else.

[EDIT] Now that I think about it, one guy did have the flashback flaw - it was the same guy who had hunted and got his garages blown up. He had the flashback come back to haunt him during a milk run thru Ft. Lewis tourist trips...and caught a weakened Ebola virus because of it smile.gif heh. Was ultra cool RP at the time tho - and was partially responsible for the garages being blown up (the trigger was seeing a certain type of person - Humanis Policlub - and when he saw one, he flashed back to a dark secret in his past...and tipped the HP (who were the hunted 2, btw) to his existence.) [/EDIT]
toturi
Maybe I'll get "Immunity from GM fiat", then "Immunity to cows". biggrin.gif
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
That sounds like a reasonable use of the flaw, and your team must be very cohesive. However, I don't think it would qualify for the full flaw points if it only happened four times in four years. Your call though.

I agree, but the only problem is that game time, we've only gone through a year and a half. My game is very role-play heavy and they want to talk to every single contact and hang out with them, have some drinks. We're lucky if in a four hour session, we get through half a day.
So think of it this way, 4 times in a year in a half.... Hmmm, maybe I should step that up a notch.
Sandoval Smith
I'd actually allow the D stun strigger, with the caveat that you don't actually suffer the effects until after you wake up from that stun. And that the player had better RP out those flashbacks when they do occur.
Lantzer
I wouldn't. The inconvenience caused by being useless a little longer when you have been taken out already is small compared to the value of the flaw, and most other triggers. If you live long enough to recover from your deadly stun, then your flashback are probably not going to be a problem. Not much problem in having a panic attack after you have already been saved.

One caveat: I might allow it myself if you think of normal sleep as being deadly stun. It's kind of nifty to have a guy who wakes up every day with nightmares. It also could be an inconvenience at the most inappropriate times, as the flaw is meant to. (Like when you get woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of someone breaking in).
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