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Mr.Sinister
I have an Adept I created using the info provided in the SR3 sourcebook. My GM limits us to what is found in that sourcebook for character creation to keep us all on the same level at first. We use material available in other books (like Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows, etc) as supplements for things we can gain as rewards through our adventures.

Anyway, on to my questions...

I know the SR3 sourcebook specifically states that my Adept can bond and use weapon foci. This being said, it's obvious that my Adept can perform the bonding ritual to use foci (spending time+karma). Is it possible that my Adept can then bond a Spell Category Foci (SCF)? I know I can't cast spells, so the additional dice for the casting/drain test does not apply, however, the SCF can also supply dice for spell defense against spells of that same category. Can my Adept use a SCF only for spell defense, ignoring the uses for actual spell casting?

Along those same lines, can my Adept bond a Power Focus, also ignoring the casting/drain dice and use it only for spell defense? Since the Power Focus also adds to the owner's Magic rating, can I then use that additional boost in Magic to gain additional Adept Powers only while in possession of the Power Focus?

I've looked through the SR3 sourcebook several times and didn't find anything relating to this being possible or not. I've also looked at the FAQ section on the shadowrun.com website with no luck (only info there was about creating foci, which I assume applies to talismongering and therefore does not apply to my questions).

Any help? Thanks!

-Mr. Sinister
Jrayjoker
IIRC you can only bond foci at character creation with spell points. Therefore the physical adept cannot bond foci immediately. (If the Physad can bond foci it must be with magic points directly, and therfore limit the number and level of powers he can choose at startup). I do not have my books here, so I may be talking out of my butt.

With regard to bonding power foci and spell foci, I have always ruled that the spell foci was a no no because the physad has no concept of casting spells, but the power foci is a great question. I'd love to hear a canon answer too.
lorthazar
deleted due to continuity error
Bigity
Isn't the Sorcery skill required for Spell Defense anyway?
RedmondLarry
Sorcery skill is required for Spell Defense, as Bigity says. A regular Adept can not have it. From the online FAQ:
QUOTE (Online FAQ)
... only spellcasters get Spell Pool, and you have to be skilled in Sorcery to use Spell Defense.

QUOTE (lorthazar)
Wille you were talking out of you butt, I am sure it was unintentional.
lorthazar, you'll find that Jrayjoker's butt is pretty accurate on this matter. SR3 page 60, "Magical Gear and Spells", second paragraph says:
QUOTE
Because adept characters do not get Spell Points during character creation, they cannot bond weapon foci at that time.
Jrayjoker
Now that the accuracy of my butt has been verified, I will retire to the water closet to partake in some target practice.
Mr.Sinister
Well, this is not good. Who do I petition for a rule change? biggrin.gif

So, basically, my Adept with a Willpower of 6 can't do anything to help his chances against a Mage who casts a single Manabolt at 5M rolling say 11 dice? Even if this Mage gets 4 successes it will bump the damage up to Deadly, and I'll need to match or beat 4 successes of a target number of 5 using only 6 dice allocated to my Willpower.

I was hoping that I could spend some cash and karma on the Foci to help this seemingly uneven situation.

Can spell damage be reduced based on number of successes towards the resistance test or is it "all or nothing" of the full brunt of the spell?


Is there nothing that can help me out or should I just kill the character off and make a cyber-mage?

Thanks guys,

-Mr. Sinister
lorthazar
if he has got astral perception and sorcery skill he can attempt to engage the spell in physical combat if the GM is kind. Plus i believe in the Companion they stated that All adept get the spell points but Adepts can only spend them on initiation at creation or weaon foci.
Frenzy
ie KILL THE MAGE FIRST!
Jrayjoker
Your physad with 6 Will is still in pretty good shape. The odds of him hitting are 11/6 and the odds of you resisting is 12/6. Your odds are better overall I think. And once he casts at you, geek 'im. Odds are you are faster, tougher, and a better shot.
Mr.Sinister
QUOTE (Frenzy)
ie KILL THE MAGE FIRST!

Oh, normally, I can do that pretty quick. It's the surprise attacks that I'm worried about. eek.gif
Mr.Sinister
QUOTE
The odds of him hitting are 11/6 and the odds of you resisting is 10/5.
I see where you get the 11/6 - 11 dice, target 6 - for the Mage. But where do you get the 10/5 for my Adept? Target 5, but where does the 10 come from? I'm at work, maybe I'm just not fully awake. biggrin.gif
LinaInverse
QUOTE (Mr.Sinister)
QUOTE (Frenzy @ Jan 11 2005, 04:06 PM)
ie  KILL THE MAGE FIRST!

Oh, normally, I can do that pretty quick. It's the surprise attacks that I'm worried about. eek.gif

To be fair, surprise attacks from almost anyone will goober up almost anyone. Whether it's from a Manabolt or a Remington 990, when the attacker can throw in all his Combat/Sorcery Dice, the target is usually going to be at a disadvantage.
Jrayjoker
Mr.S,

you have two numbers per die that succeed, so 2 chances per die, six dice. I should have written 12/6, btw.
Mr.Sinister
True, but even if I win initiative and attack another foe, I can still be dropped instantly. Let's face it, a Mage can wear armor, increase his body, use an armor spell and be better at taking bullets than I can - then he can drop me in an instant. with one spell. So, initiative doesn't mean much.

This seems out of balance to me.
Mr.Sinister
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Mr.S,

you have two numbers per die that succeed, so 2 chances per die, six dice. I should have written 12/6, btw.

Ah-ha! Thanks much! Clear as a bell!
Jrayjoker
Thank goodness the mages are very rare, then! Wait, I have never played a game where the ratio of mages to mundanes/physads was less than 1:5. Hmmm, seems like a lot more than the one in a million I recall from SR1 (or was it 2?).
Jrayjoker
Also, Mr. S...I am no statistician, so I may be incredibly wrong on how I interpret odds on dice rolls.
Mr.Sinister
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Also, Mr. S...I am no statistician, so I may be incredibly wrong on how I interpret odds on dice rolls.

Oh, that's fine - I'm just glad I was able to understand where you were coming from.
James McMurray
The defesive power of mages is the reason we're implementinga house rule that any dice pulled from one pool also subtract from other pools. That way if that mage dumps all of his spell pool into blasting you and soaking the drain, he doesn't still have his entire combat pool for defense. We'll use the rule for a few sessions and see how things work out.
Jrayjoker
Interesting. Other than for game balance what is the rationale? Concentration, focusing will takes a simple action, what?
James McMurray
The rationale is that there's only so many different things you can focus on in 3 seconds.

But of course we didn't really bother with a rationale. If a rule makes things more balanced, reasons for it aren't that big of a deal in our group unless the rule is a fundamental concept about the world. i.e. changing dice pools to come from a communal bucket is not a fundamental change. Making it so that shamen lose their totems in a campaign where totems have been around would require some rationale.
Mr.Sinister
Ok, back to one of my other questions...

Can an Adept bond a power focus to increase his magic rating and then gain additional Adept Powers while he is in possession of the focus?
mfb
no. that's what Infusion foci are for.
Mr.Sinister
QUOTE (mfb)
no. that's what Infusion foci are for.

Interesting, what book are those found in? Magic in the Shadows? SR Companion?
mfb
SOTA:64. basically, infusion foci grant an adept adept powers with a power point cost equal to 1/2 the focus' force.
Mr.Sinister
And probably 10x as expensive in nuyen.gif and karma as a power focus - hahahahahaha

My GM has the book, I guess I'll be borrowing it. At least then I can maybe get some spell resistance powers. cool.gif

Thanks again everyone!

-Mr. Sinister
Fortune
You could always go for the Magic Resistance Adept Power.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Mr.Sinister)
So, basically, my Adept with a Willpower of 6 can't do anything to help his chances against a Mage who casts a single Manabolt at 5M rolling say 11 dice?

Well, besides the fact that your expected number of successes (2) is higher than his expected number of successes (1.83)? And that a Tie goes to the defender in Combat Spells?

You can have cover. You can have concealment. You can bring along others that look like bigger threats to the magician. You can have Improved Reflexes and go first. You can take the damage from the spell and let your team mates mop up the magician and his buddies, and then your team mates can Treat you.

I remember a magician complaining one time. "You mean the adept can have 7 dice in specialized skill with his rifle, 6 dice from Improved Skill, and 7 dice from pool to shoot me from a long distance before I even know he's there? He can Aim to take his TN to 2. That's 20 dice, with an average of better than 16 successes. Even with Armor 6 and Bullet Barrier 6 and Combat Pool I only have 14 dice to stage it down. That's so unfair! I'm going to throw away this useless magician and make XXX instead."
toturi
Magic Resistance Adept Power is good, so is Spell Shroud and True Sight but only against specific spell-types. Carrying around your own background count is good too, or hiding in an area with background count (that is most places runners would choose to visit).
Mr.Sinister
I guess the main thing that bugs me is that a Mage has the possibilities of reducing the damage my Adept does (via armor gear, armor spell, increased/modified attributes, etc), but my Adept has basically no options to reduce the damage a Mage does to me with spells.
Kanada Ten
Then again, you don't take drain every time you swing a sword or shoot a gun with most adept powers. It's also only true with Combat Spells (and I suppose damaging Health Spells).
James McMurray
I've played shamen almost exclusively since 2nd edition came out and never had a problem with drain. I rarely suffered it, and when I did, low rating stims fixed it long enough to keep the fight going.

Later, once the character has some karma under his belt (or earlier if you take a bit of cyberware) you can start taking physical drain, which is even easier to fix, since you've got heal and treat to fix them. Taking a light wound while mana balling three enemies is well worth it in a lot of cases, especially when you're almost gauranteed to be able to fix that damage in or after the battle.

Drain is a good idea to balance spellcasting, but IMO it doesn't do enough.
Fortune
Stim Patches are good way to loss Magic.

And you can't heal Drain with Magic, even if it is Physical.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Taking a light wound while mana balling three enemies is well worth it in a lot of cases, especially when you're almost gauranteed to be able to fix that damage in or after the battle.

Even beyond what Fortune says, I'm not sure I see the problem. I mean have you ever used a rigger? They can rock a mage like nothing else. Manabolt does nada to a gun drone and even Powerbolt needs to hit mucho TNs to effect them.

Seriously, Shadowrunners will beat stupid enemies every time. Why don't your guards alternate who is shooting and who is hiding behind cover so that only one of them can get hit at a time?
Deamon_Knight
Fortune, I don't recognize that rule (Although it makes sense) Can you cite where is specifies that you cannot heal physical drain with heal/treat ?
Kanada Ten
Page 193 Health Spells
"No techniques known to magic can earse fatigue, cure psychological condistions or cure Drain."

I know there is another one that's even more clear.
RedmondLarry
It's not in the detailed description of Drain Resistance Test (SR3.183).
It's not in the overview of Sorcery Drain (SR3.180)
It is, of course, in the section between "Exclusive Actions" and "Noticing Magic". So see what Kanada Ten will post in three minutes. It'll be excellent.
Kanada Ten
Page 162 Drain (last line)
"Physical damage caused by Drain cannot be healed using magic, only by rest and medical attention."

< rotfl.gif >
Glyph
QUOTE (Mr.Sinister)
I guess the main thing that bugs me is that a Mage has the possibilities of reducing the damage my Adept does (via armor gear, armor spell, increased/modified attributes, etc), but my Adept has basically no options to reduce the damage a Mage does to me with spells.

With a Willpower of 6, it will be hard for any mage to even affect your character. And you do get to roll that Willpower to resist the spell. So he is trying to get net successes with a TN of 6. I have played a sorcerer with tons of foci, Totem bonuses, etc., and he still flubbed important rolls because of high TNs. You can also invest in the Magic Resistance power or improve your Willpower if you want to improve your odds.

A mage who surprises you is in the same optimal position as anyone else making a surprise attack. But most of the time, they are juggling their attack, spell defense for themselves and others, and adding dice to help soak Drain. For most spellcasters, a target with a Willpower of 6 ruins their day.
noneuklid
The only thing that I want is an Adept with the Spell Reflection meta... cool.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Jan 11 2005, 11:01 PM)
Page 162 Drain (last line)
"Physical damage caused by Drain cannot be healed using magic, only by rest and medical attention."

< rotfl.gif >

Unless you're a Blood Mage. Am I alone in thinking that the rules were better before Kenson came along? Am I alone in thinking that the old rule that you couldn't project through living matter was a good idea?
toturi
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Unless you're a Blood Mage. Am I alone in thinking that the rules were better before Kenson came along? Am I alone in thinking that the old rule that you couldn't project through living matter was a good idea?

In the first place for SR3, there was never any limit to projecting through living matter. In the SR3/BBB itself, projecting through living matter was already stated as possible.
Canid13
QUOTE (noneuklid)
The only thing that I want is an Adept with the Spell Reflection meta... cool.gif

So play a Magicials Way adept.

In my campaign, I've modified how Combat Spells work - the target may stage the damage down. We don't do the whole sucesses versus sucesses thing because it makes spells rather hard to deal with. This way, it is possible to take a light from a spell cast at S just as it is to take a deadly from a spell cast at M.

It balances out nicely but still makes magic a pain in the backside to the low WIL characters. Hell, even my shaman needs to worry about it.
Canid13
delted double post
Fortune
QUOTE
In my campaign, I've modified how Combat Spells work - the target may stage the damage down. We don't do the whole sucesses versus sucesses thing because it makes spells rather hard to deal with. This way, it is possible to take a light from a spell cast at S just as it is to take a deadly from a spell cast at M.


That makes Combat spells even harsher than they already are. As it stands now in canon, the target only has to get the same amount of successes as the caster (which is pretty hard already) to avoid the damage. With your rule, the target would have to get 8 successes more than the caster to stage down a D damage spell.
bitrunner
CD is talking about SR1 and 2, where you couldn't project through living matter...no matter how you visualized your astral form, it still had the same "astral size" of your normal body, and so if a building had vines growing over the walls, you couldn't project through them - they were a cheap way of keeping out astral spies...it was the same with even a mundane person - you couldn't just "fly" through their body...of course, that made Possession harder, and we just all HAD to have Voodoo and its Possession power... nyahnyah.gif
James McMurray
The inability to heal physical drain is a new thing in 3rd, and one our group had missed. Thanks for pointing that out, it at least stops one area of abuse.

Re stims losing your magic: If you use only rating 2 or 3 stims and have a magic attribute of 6+, your odds of not getting any successes (especially with karma pool available) are pretty low. And even if those fail you still get to roll 2d6. With a 6 magic that 2d6 isn't likely to hurt you. Overall the chance of losing magic to stims is so low as to make it almost negligible unless you're already very hurt.

Re having enemies alternate cover: that doesn't do a bit of good if the team is using grenades, elemental balls, or other area affects. If enemies take full cover they hurt their offense so much that being defensive doesn't matter. Unless there is a time restraint on the mission (most have them, but they're usually long enough to allow a few extra rounds in a firfight) then having the gaurds hide is a waste of their energy and resource, which will most likely end in their deaths as the party picks them off one or two at a time (or just drops a bomb on them).

My biggest problem with magic is the ability to focus all of your spell pool on offense and still be able to use all of your combat pool for defense. The house rule that pools are combined should take care of that. I don't mind mages rarely suffering drain, as long as they can still be hurt by bullets, clubs, etc.

Inability to project through living matter being taken away is another little change we didn't notice. I think I'll be house ruling it back to the way it used to be. Buildings with ivy growing on the walls and elementals / astral projectors watching the roof greatly reduce the power of a projecting maze to scout the area with little fear of detection. Granted awakened gaurds can change that, but I'm looking at having a campaign where awakened animals, critters, etc. are fairly rare.
Mensche
im with Candid13 on this one.

your adept could maybe learn sorcery through roleplaying or some s*it, then bond foci like a sorcerer, no?
Foreigner
mfb:

I have a copy of SOTA: 2064, but I'm not quite clear on something. (I have scanned it, but I wasn't too thorough; I didn't want to end up knowing more about certain things than my GM, Sahandrian.) What, exactly, is an "Infusion Focus" ?

Mr. Sinister: Just out of curiosity, did you take your alias from the Marvel Comics character (real name, Nathaniel Essex, a foe of the X-Men and mutants in general) ? The only reason I'm asking is that my alias (and my SR character, incidentally) is also from their comics.

--Foreigner
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