Cakeman
Jan 20 2005, 11:02 PM
Didn't find this in a quick search, so...
Can a rigger rig a motorcycle? Rigger 3 says that a riggers body goes limp when rigging, alas he should fall off a bike if he's jacked in. So rigging a bike is only possible via remote control, or...? What's your take on it?
James McMurray
Jan 20 2005, 11:06 PM
You could tie yourself on somehow, but good luck getting through a crash. I personally wouldn't risk it.
psykotisk_overlegen
Jan 20 2005, 11:11 PM
I'd imagine balancing the bike would be very hard when your body goes limp.
But bikes can be rigger adapted can't they, and there's nothing canon that says it can't be done.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 20 2005, 11:14 PM
It'd also be somewhat easier to install a restraint system in a Harley or a large chopper.
But how in the world would you rig a rice rocket?
Cakeman
Jan 20 2005, 11:20 PM
You could ofcourse get a sidecar and rig from there...
Panzergeist
Jan 20 2005, 11:20 PM
You can rig a bike, but it needs to have a gyroscopic balancing system installed to stay balanced with your body all limp. And, if you turn really sharply, you might fall off. Plus, people can just shoot you instead of the bike.
psykotisk_overlegen
Jan 20 2005, 11:31 PM
QUOTE |
Plus, people can just shoot you instead of the bike. |
Something that tends to be the case for non-rigging bikers as well.
I don't have the Rigger book here, how many unmodified bikes even have the required sensors:1 ? All I know is that there are none in the BBB.
BaronJ
Jan 20 2005, 11:33 PM
See, this is where the game gets wonky... Gyroscopic Stabilisation is almost required for the sanity of the operator and the GM, but as you see below, depending on the GM, not needed. As a reminder, this is how I do it, not how it should be.
(this explanation works with the rules, but sounds stupid)
When I've rigged a bike, I've set it up that I'm jacked in and passed out. Stabilsation is accomplished through a Gyroscopic Stabiliser (in Rig3, mostly for droned bikes) and a set of leg irons that clamp down on the legs. The handlebars are customised with gauntlets that lock down on the hands, and you just lie down on the bike. If you're gonna crash, there's a mental, "crash-button" that jacks you out of the bike and releases all the restraints so you can 'escape' as you see fit.
(this explanation doesn't completely jive with the rules, but it's close and makes sense)
If you're rigged into the bike, and you ARE the bike, the bike is also aware of this 150-kilo weight strapped to the top of it. The Rigger-controls understand that the majority of the maneuverability of a motorcycle comes from the proper manipulation of this weight on the back of it, it would allow (through RAS operations) the most efficient cornering of the bike by manipulating the body of the rigger to manuver the weight. In this manner, the movmement of the rigger's meat is not conciously controlled by the rigger directly, but unconciously moved by the Rigger/VCR interface. A gyroscope helps, but is not required.
(this explanation is expensive and least compliant of the three)
The motorcycle gets a drone package installed (with the gyro), and the rigger controls it through 'Virtual Dashboard' mode, the drone system takes the autonav commands from the rigger, allowing them complete control over the vehicle, while not passing them out. This is sadly only as effective as the Drone rating, which is prohibitvely expensive. The rigger issues these 'virtual dashboard' commands through the datajack connected to the VCR, so they're just as complex as regular drone commands, just without the whole captain's chair total-immersion environment
BaronJ
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 20 2005, 11:41 PM
150 kilos? Damn...
You could turn it into a sort of Tron bike with a mostly enclosed housing for the Asian variety. Choppers should just really need a five-point restraint or something.
BaronJ
Jan 20 2005, 11:44 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
150 kilos? Damn... |
Whoops.. forgot my English to Metric conversions; that's if you've got a troll rigging a bike. If its an Elf (or a scrawny human, the normal case) it's only about 70kg of extra mass.
Ecclesiastes
Jan 20 2005, 11:49 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
You could turn it into a sort of Tron bike with a mostly enclosed housing for the Asian variety. Choppers should just really need a five-point restraint or something. |
This is actually how I handle it. I have some sort of enclosed cockpit on the bike that they can strap themselves into. You can also armor it and they will be protected inside.
Tarantula
Jan 20 2005, 11:51 PM
Riggers can move their meat bodies while rigging. Thus, if they are riding a bike, they can let themselves and the bike stay balanced.
If they are remotely rigging a bike, it does need the gyroscopic stabalization gear, because there is nothing otherwise to keep it upright.
Lastly, whenever you rigger adapt a vehicle, you must have it with sensors 1. (Or it automatically gets it, I can't remember). Regardless, you can't have rigger adaptation without at least sensors 1.
Kanada Ten
Jan 20 2005, 11:58 PM
I'm of the opinion that the cost of a VCR and bike equipped with gyroscopic stabilization allows for a feedback control that makes the riggers body less than limp when desired. My understanding is that riggers incur a +8 TN modifier to all physical activities but still have some control. And thus, with some form of bike-body communication (VCR + gyroscopic stabilization processor), a rigger's body moves with the bike so to speak.
Also, I believe there is a canon mention of Combat Bikers using rigged bikes. But maybe not.
Crimson Jack
Jan 21 2005, 01:19 AM
Magnets and plates in the hands/handles and ass/seat. Rigger won't go anywhere.
Panzergeist
Jan 21 2005, 02:06 AM
Sure, you can move your body while rigging. You just get +8 to target numbers. Wear lots of impact armor.
Joe Outside
Jan 21 2005, 04:27 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Also, I believe there is a canon mention of Combat Bikers using rigged bikes. But maybe not. |
The novel Dead Air talks about it, (combat bikers are rigged, wielding a melee weapon in one hand and a gun in the other IIRC), but I don't know about any sourcebook references.
BaronJ
Jan 21 2005, 04:28 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Jan 20 2005, 11:58 PM) |
Also, I believe there is a canon mention of Combat Bikers using rigged bikes. |
From what I remeber from my whirlwind tour of the novels (which are semi-canon), in second edition, Bikes were riggable. The novel in question is "Dead Air" by Jak Koke, wherin two drek-hot Test Pilots are forced to retire, and enter Combat Biking with their MilSpec VCRs.
Honestly, it was one of those "ok, sure" novels, but it's still quasi-canon.
(a case of tele-frag posting)
Daishi
Jan 21 2005, 06:28 AM
I've always figured it should work fine. The RAS just doesn't kick in fully, the rigger still has subconscious motor control. The rigger is no longer aware of his body as independent, but rather it is now just a component of the bike.
Adam
Jan 21 2005, 07:01 AM
Do remember that Dead Air was fiction set within a fictional universe ... the events in it didn't actually happen in the Sixth World.
Bob the Ninja
Jan 21 2005, 07:10 AM
QUOTE (Adam) |
Do remember that Dead Air was fiction set within a fictional universe ... the events in it didn't actually happen in the Sixth World. |
?
As opposed to real events that happened in the fictional universe?
Joe Outside
Jan 21 2005, 07:49 AM
QUOTE (Adam) |
Do remember that Dead Air was fiction set within a fictional universe ... the events in it didn't actually happen in the Sixth World. |
I'll have to look it up again. The book kind of underwhelmed me (the description of Combat Biker being the only thing in the book that piqued my interest) so it got relegated to a corner of the closet.
DocMortand
Jan 21 2005, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I used to own all of the SR books, but recently had to pare down my library and that was one of them that didn't survive the purge.
Even the gratuitious sex scenes didn't save it
*heh*
Actually, the idea of a Tron bike made me wonder - I see nothing wrong with rigging bikes...the sensor:1 thing can be gotten around very easy by modding the bike to have extra CF, then adding sensors. When I was a player, I had all my bikes with Sensor 1 because I always bought the sec combo of Proximity Alert and Electric Shock System. The description of the Fenris car of Wolf's in "Wolf and Raven" made me chuckle. (kids tossing a rat against the car, repeatedly stunning it.)
Fortune
Jan 21 2005, 08:31 AM
QUOTE (Bob the Ninja) |
QUOTE (Adam) | Do remember that Dead Air was fiction set within a fictional universe ... the events in it didn't actually happen in the Sixth World. |
As opposed to real events that happened in the fictional universe?
|
Exactly. Just like Karl Kombatmage is a fictional person in the fictional world of Shadowrun.
Nikoli
Jan 21 2005, 01:27 PM
Karl isn't real?
But I have all these letters and emails...
mfb
Jan 21 2005, 05:08 PM
moving your body and shifting your weight is part of riding a bike. it should be accomplished automatically, as part of the rigging process.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 05:13 PM
But that is exactly opposite what the books say can happen, unless you want to go with the +8 to TN modifier for acting outside of the virtual system.
Tarantula
Jan 21 2005, 05:24 PM
Jray. There is no check to stay on a bike. Just like there is no check to walk down the sidewalk. A rigger jacked into a drone can overide the RAS and accomplish these things, without a check. Yes, it will take a great deal of concentration, but, you don't need to roll for them, they're automatic.
Jray, the +8 modifier is to the action taken with your physical body. The action being taken here is keeping it in a semi-normal riding position on the bike. Which doesn't require a check. Thus, theres no check even if you're overrideing the RAS.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 05:31 PM
T,
There is no check when performing a normal, day-to-day activity, like riding up to a stop sign and stopping. The check would need to be performed in a more then day-to-day operation like evasive manoeuvering, etc.
mfb
Jan 21 2005, 05:33 PM
the rigger becomes the bike, right? well, part of riding a bike is moving with the bike; the body is, for all intents and purposes, a part of the bike. the VCR feeds commands into the rigger's muscules the same way it feeds commands into the engine.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 05:39 PM
So what mods to the VCR have to be made so that it is bike ready? The fact is, except for shutting you down VCRs aren't built to control you. What if I take over your signal, can I make you dance a jig? What if, while I am repairing/installing your VCR I put in a little program so that if you ever rat me out your next act is to blow your own brains out via VCR?
mfb
Jan 21 2005, 05:41 PM
there's no game rules for stuff like that, just like there's no game rules for a lot of stuff that SR tech should logically allow for. i'm creating an explanation that fits the existing rules; there's no rules for falling off your bike when you rig it, so the explanation for rigging a bike should be geared towards the same.
Tarantula
Jan 21 2005, 05:47 PM
Yeah, and the check when performing evasive maneuvering is if you can make the bike move where you're wanting it to. The only time passengers can EVER fall off a vehicle involuntarily is if they are knockedback off it, theres a crash, or they nolonger control the vehicle when controlling it is what keeps you on (i.e. someone passing out while driving a bike).
With a rigger ON a bike, he easily makes the bike move where he needs to, since the bike isn't dumping his meat body off, it stays on. The check to avoid dumping the body off is part of the drive check that is made. Success = you do what you wanted. Failure = you don't get there. Rule of 1 = you dump the bike over.
A day-to-day activity is staying on your bike while controlling it. There is never a check for it. Theres also no check for the rigger to stay in his seat in the riggermobile when he makes a hard turn, and I don't see you breaking your brain over that.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 06:08 PM
Well, since you asked. If it is a 4 wheeler my riggers get a 5 point harness, otherwise they can get thrown.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 06:41 PM
QUOTE (Adam @ Jan 21 2005, 12:01 AM) |
Do remember that Dead Air was fiction set within a fictional universe ... the events in it didn't actually happen in the Sixth World. |
Yes, but the rules and concepts of Combat Biking have been around since 1992 and Shadowbeat. Accordingly, "rigged players and cycles are the rule rather than the exception in the major leagues" (Shadowbeat, 67).
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 06:43 PM
So there is canon to support rigged biking. I thought I remembered it from SR1 days, but couldn't make the connection.
I still think there is a need for the gyros while biking rigged.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 07:03 PM
Perhaps, but there's no canon requirement for them.
Frankly, nothing about rigging bikes makes sense. For example, combat bike involves teams with a large number of riggers. However, they are also supposed to fight with melee or stun weapons, and/or play with a ball and try to score. All this is supposed to be done while accruing a +8 TN for every test they make while playing--something which strikes me a bit incredulously simply because at +8 to every test, the fights and scoring would suck because no one would be able to take a decent shot, swing a polearm, or fire a concussion grenade with any appreciable success. Explosions are cool, but explosions which don't miss your target by half a football filed length are really cool.
What would make sense is if the rules allowed partial DNI and full DNI such as with decking. They can switch between full-on rigging and Virtual Dashboard mode for various things, like killing each other. As far as bike riggers would be concerned, it would allow them the ability to do things like wield weapons, or just rig without falling off or needing a stabilizer unit which, BTW, seems counterintuitive to riggers who are supposed to do things that a gyro stabilizer would actively fight against.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 07:05 PM
Is it possible that the intent of "rigged" combat bikers was really people driving through use of a datajack to get the headsup display?
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 07:06 PM
Nope. They have VCRs and the bikes are adapted for rigging.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 07:29 PM
Well, there it is then.
CanvasBack
Jan 21 2005, 07:36 PM
This (combat bikers with VCRs) is just another example of different authors having different takes on what being a rigger means and entails. Using SR1 adventure material and proclaiming it canon for SR3 doesn't make much sense to me in the sense that the rule mechanics have changed quite a bit and Rigger 3 Revised makes is pretty clear what is allowed in the game now. Rigging a bike should probably mean either doing so remotely, doing so while securely harnessed in some manner, and either should probably include the gyroscope. I would suggest to anyone trying to adapt Shadowbeat to SR3 go with the interpretation that the bikers are using the headsup display while they're flailing away at each other and switching to Rigging when they to pursue/evade an opponent and that the participants switch between such states with some frequency. Some sort of quick-release, quick-engage harness system would need to be employed to facilitate this and given 2050/60 levels of technology, shouldn't be a problem to come up with.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 07:45 PM
Stare decisis. It stands until it's been contradicted. At least, it does in my little SR universe. Even if it's been 12-13 years, the 2.5 susbsequent versions of rigger had ample time and opportunity to contradict it, change it, or eliminate it. That they didn't, to me, reinforces the old rule.
Moreover, Paul Hume's word means a Hell of a lot more to me about playing SR than Szeto's ever will.
But let them switch between full-on Rigger and Virtual Dashboard, and the penalty drops to +1. Pros can handle +1, and it's as close as the rigger rules allow to sanity. Even though the Reaction bonus drops, they can still use Control Pool, AFAIK.
Kanada Ten
Jan 21 2005, 07:45 PM
One could switch between Captain's Chair and Rigging with the intent of using melee weapons and such.
QUOTE |
Some sort of quick-release, quick-engage harness system would need to be employed to facilitate this and given 2050/60 levels of technology, shouldn't be a problem to come up with. |
Nor should bio feedback, though we could agrue it requires a skillwire system or similar.
Jrayjoker
Jan 21 2005, 07:53 PM
If you are plugged in anyway it is a simple action to release something like that anyway.
mfb
Jan 21 2005, 08:08 PM
canvasback, that's only a viable argument if the material's changed from SR1 to SR3. as far as i know, VCRs haven't changed.
CanvasBack
Jan 21 2005, 08:25 PM
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
Stare decisis. It stands until it's been contradicted. At least, it does in my little SR universe. Even if it's been 12-13 years, the 2.5 susbsequent versions of rigger had ample time and opportunity to contradict it, change it, or eliminate it. That they didn't, to me, reinforces the old rule.
Moreover, Paul Hume's word means a Hell of a lot more to me about playing SR than Szeto's ever will.
But let them switch between full-on Rigger and Virtual Dashboard, and the penalty drops to +1. Pros can handle +1, and it's as close as the rigger rules allow to sanity. |
Man, if I had a nickel for every contradicition I've found reading SR material, I could sit around all day chatting on the internet. Oh wait...
When I look through some of the earlier material I've got shelved, I often ask myself the question, "Did these people ever attempt to come up with a cohesive game universe by acutally reading each other's material or did they just spitball their individual work while FASA just published the ideas they could get the best cover art for?
I realize some of the people around here are industry and everything so I'll say right now that if anybody reading this is a WizKid/FanPro/FastForward Entertainment writer/editor/product developer... Congratulations SR3 is much more coherent thanks due to your efforts. But...
Sometimes issues like the Rigger/Biker will come back to haunt. It probably would have been a better idea to come up with a specific ruling for that in Rigger 3 rather than worrying about Naval Combat Damage Codes... (That does fall on FASA too IIRC).
Then again, the whole going limp issue in Rigger 3 would seem to preclude rigging a bike without a harness or some sort of biofeedback system that Kanada Ten suggests. Hell, I might even concede that the VCR itself could do the job as far as that goes. But whether your body is limp or in some sort of contracted vegetal state, pumping and grinding on your bike while you assume the machine, and a +8 target number does seem to preclude going into combat with just your meat body... Seems like the "old rule" was overruled to me...
I don't know why Crimsondude 2.0 should favor one author over another in this or any other matter... I guess I'm not as connected or something.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 08:34 PM
QUOTE (CanvasBack) |
Man, if I had a nickel for every contradicition I've found reading SR material, I could sit around all day chatting on the internet. Oh wait... |
Great, but not regarding the specific point that I mentioned.
IOW, what's your point?
QUOTE |
I don't know why Crimsondude 2.0 should favor one author over another in this or any other matter... I guess I'm not as connected or something. |
Personal preference. I have a lot more respect for Hume since he was there at the beginning, and his writing has always been much more logical and consistent. Frankly, he's just a better author.
Nikoli
Jan 21 2005, 09:02 PM
IIRC, the VCR replaces part of or interfaces heavily with the Medulla Oblongatta. Balance and involuntary muscle control is linked there.
It's not inconceivable that the VCR uses reflexive muscle control to adjust the body according to the g-forces being applied.
Crimsondude 2.0
Jan 21 2005, 11:25 PM
That works, too.
hobgoblin
Jan 22 2005, 03:24 PM
we must recall that the vcr is more then just a datajack, its a whole set of wireing and other stuff inside the body. this could explain that while a decker normaly goes limb while decking (RAS override effect) the VCR takes over in the case of a rigger. first and formost to make sure he does not flail around inside a vehicle when doing sharp turns and so on, but allso to maybe asist pilots in avoiding blackouts in high-g scenarios and bikers to stay on the bike. if not then all one would need would be a rigger enabled vehicle (the black box) and a datajack.
Snow_Fox
Jan 22 2005, 04:49 PM
bikes can be rigged, but why would you want to? The fun of the bick is shifting the balance and feel of the wind, I speak from RL here.