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James McMurray
Has anyone else had the problem that a printed run's adversaries are no real problem for their group?

As an example, in a recently published set of runs the team is to make a run against a place, and the gaurds (three of them) have stats that even a decker could take them out in combat: Body 3, Willpower 3, Pistols 4, unarmed 4, etc. The entire run's opposition is along those lines.

Combat should be the punishment for a run gone bad. But when the gaurds can't hurt the runners unless they get incredibly lucky, combat is just a minor distraction where the runners lose 3-6 seconds of their escape.

Has anyone else had the problem where they have to add more gaurds or beef up the existing ones in order to use a run as it is written?
Ancient History
You've never played Harlequin's Back and had the players attempt to attack the NPCs for their foci, have you?
Pthgar
Hmm... I found it to be more of a mixed bag. Sometimes the advarsaries are too weak other times they're just right.
The opponents in the "Survival of the Fittest", were OK.
In the 4th mission of the "Shadowrun Missions", in the "Joey Cruise" section, two of the team (out of four) nearly bought the farm.
James McMurray
No, I've never run Harlequin's back. I know people who have played it, but have no first hand knowledge of my own.

Pthgar: I was specifically referrring to the gaurds in the second run (Cunning) in Survival of the Fittest.

[ Spoiler ]
Solstice
What do you expect? They are just your average joe schmoe guards. Uber skilled and attributed people don't work as crappy sec guards. This is one thing that some people don't get in RPGs. Not everything that walks the land can kick your ass and vice versa.
James McMurray
I don't expect everything to be able to kick the teatm's ass. But it should at least be a challenge. As written that particular run will have very little challenge to a team of combat capable runners. So why not just say "ok, you did the run, here's your karma. Now let's move on to a run that would actually be fun to play."
algcs
These guys aren't their to stop full blown runners. They are there to:

1) Make people feel safe. And make crooks think twice.
2) Keep the employees in line. Don't let the employees walk off with a new computer and stuff.
3) Handle minor things, Keep people from snooping around, chase off skateboarders, escort people to cars, and search repairmen and contractors.
4) Alert the big guns if something goes wrong.
5) Help secure critical items and assist in evacuate the building. Make sure vault doors get shut and the VP is in his safe room.

Depending on the company that order may change.

I'm not saying they won't take a shot at a runner if he turns his back. But if there are 5 trolls armed with HMGs running down the hall. The security guard is going to hide in the broom closet and call for the HRT team.

The runners can't really ignore the guards. That just gives them the chance to get up to the security office and get geared up, Body armor, gas grenades, assult Rifles and possible some combat drugs toughen people up.

Getting in and out with out being IDed from an low security facility should be the big concern for the runners.
Kanada Ten
It varies from module to module with levels of difficulty. I've heard that SotF is rather easy on the runners, while I consider WotC to be fairly deadly in some places (while the Ares infiltration is rather easy).
Backgammon
I'm pretty sure every single module comes with the disclaimer that you should adjust based on your group's strenght. Do you really expect someone to write NPCs that will be universally "just right"?
Demonseed Elite
From an author's perspective, the stats for adversaries are always the most difficult part for me to write. I mean, I don't know who exactly I'm shaping them towards. The opposition might be insane for a group whose GM generally gives out small karma rewards and is strict about acquiring gear, but the same opponent would be a pushover for a group that's been building up karma for over a year and is all SOTA.

Basically, the stats usually are a guideline, which the gamemaster has to tailor to his specific group.
James McMurray
Thanksfor the insight folks. I'm glad it isn't just me. smile.gif
Garland
Then again, there are the Tir Ghosts in the Corporate Punishment book...
BitBasher
I do want to agree with the above poster who said the average sec guards shouldn't be a challenge for any competent shadowrunner.
mfb
some modules hit the opposite extreme, as well; a team of Piston's Tir Ghosts will mop the floor with just about anybody. (which is as it should be.)
BitBasher
And I thought the printed stats for the uber badass pimp of all pimp Ares Firelance teams were woefully pathetic considering their status and affiliation with a corp that has a rating of 11 (The corp is God) in weaponry.

In fact with the exceptionof the Tir Ghosts I think most special forces are really pathetic as written.
Nikoli
One thing to keep in mind.
Guards know the area better than the runners (or they should).
Use cover, cut the lights, work the defensive areas. Those desks are not supposed to just be decorative.
Put emergency gear in a more readily located position, like a "Oh Drek" bag under the guard's desk, where they can slap on another layer of armor, grab a shotgun and a gas grenade or three.
Give them headsets for the radios.
Most should have laser sights, those with the better skill should have smart links and the HTR teams should have SL-2.

Also, you'd be amazed what can be acomplished with a bucket of water and a bottle of glycerine based cleanser, especially on a fancy, polished marble floor that is ever so popular with corporate america.
The Grifter
Ya know, I work as a security guard, and I personally know there's no way in hell anyone is going to just put shotgun under my desk, just in case. What if I have to go to the bathroom, or go to grab a cup of coffee. Anyone who knows (and there WILL be people who know) where that shotgun is located is going to grab it and take off the econd I turn my back.
hahnsoo
Another point: Shadowrun USED to use a Threat Rating/Professional rating system. So every single roll would have 1-6 dice added to them, making even the most mundane enemies more of a challenge. Also, most of the printed runs in the SR1/SR2 era predate a lot of the fancier tech toys.
The Grifter
I always liked the Threat Ratings. Basically gave a karma pool to the goons.
algcs
One fun thing to do is take those NPC sheets and give them to some of your players. If your sneak guy is doing recon of a site and sets off an alarm then security guard A and B can go investigate. Let some of the players that are just sitting around play A and B. You need a good group to do this but it is fun.
The Grifter
Also good for the new guy you bring over who wants to check out the game, but doesn;t want to roll up a character yet. That way they can learn the rules, stay entertained, and give your group a more diverse challenge.
algcs
QUOTE (The Grifter)
give your group a more diverse challenge.

The players always seem to pay a lot more attention when someone other than the GM plays an NPC.
The Grifter
Indeed. Because even though the GM may have a soft spot for the PC's and may fudge rolls to protect them sometimes, someone just playing as the bad guys will feel no such compulsions and will happily wipe the group out, even sacrificing themselves if need be.
TeOdio
In most cases, a Shadowrun Team has much of the deck stacked in their favor when it comes to combat (ie Magic, higher skills, more Karma, etc). As a GM, any B&E run that turns confrontational because of a flubbed Maglock Passkey attempt shouldn't be considered a "Red Alert!!!!". Sometimes, a security force that responds and sends the Runners running (hehe) have done their job. Even a mediocre security force can be challenging if they use cover and just try to do what they get paid to do (defend the site). Time is never a friend for a Shadowrun Team when an alert is raised. Having the guards do things that increase the target numbers of their opponents can drag the combat on to the point where the Runners may just want to get out of there before an FRT team shows up. Flashpacks, smoke grenades, cover, lighting. These can make it difficult for a guard in a firefight, but it makes things just as difficult for the intruders. Most of my Sec guards are pretty scrubby, but I use them to maintain the tension of the run. I don't use them as cannon fodder. If you have players that routinely shoot first when confronted by security and never try stealthier means, then change up the adventure a bit to suit their tastes. Also, if your players are a bit wonton in their destruction, have the Corp that was hit hire some runners to exact some revenge later on.
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Pthgar
Hmm... Youknow they say that in a court-martial, enlisted defendents prefer officers on their juries. Enlisted juries know better than to cut an enlisted defendent any slack.
The Grifter
QUOTE
Hmm... Youknow they say that in a court-martial, enlisted defendents prefer officers on their juries. Enlisted juries know better than to cut an enlisted defendent any slack.


As a former enlisted Marine, I'll tell you my POV on that issue. I'd much rather have a jury of enlisted men during a court martial. Since they do the same jobs I do, they'd be better able to determine my motives for certain things, whereas some stuck-up-his-own-hoop-college-boy-lieutenant has no idea of what's going on, other than signing papers and taking headcounts. Frag officers. I had enough of their B.S. No way I'd trust one when my career was on the line.
Pthgar
As I said, it was one of those "they say..." kind of things. But my point was that runners can be harder on each other than a GM would be.
Bigity
QUOTE (The Grifter)
QUOTE
Hmm... Youknow they say that in a court-martial, enlisted defendents prefer officers on their juries. Enlisted juries know better than to cut an enlisted defendent any slack.


As a former enlisted Marine, I'll tell you my POV on that issue. I'd much rather have a jury of enlisted men during a court martial. Since they do the same jobs I do, they'd be better able to determine my motives for certain things, whereas some stuck-up-his-own-hoop-college-boy-lieutenant has no idea of what's going on, other than signing papers and taking headcounts. Frag officers. I had enough of their B.S. No way I'd trust one when my career was on the line.

Statistically, he's right though. Officers tend to go easier on junior enlisted people then, say, Master Sargeants or Chiefs.

Most enlisted people have gone through the exact same stuff someone up for court martial has, and therefore have zero sympathy for circumstances and the like.
Clyde
It might be worth reconsidering the whole joe-schmo security guard anyway. I mean, in 2064 there is no government funded police. Lone Star only protects things they're being paid to protect, and you can bet they charge a lot. Corporate terrirtory is extranational anyway, so that means that there is no help on the way whatsoever.

Think about what these guards are trying to protect: a building worth a couple million yen, up to several thousand workers whose total training budgets and medical bills could run into the millions of yen, hundreds of thousands to millions in office equipment like computers and cyberterminals that could all be destroyed, and finally whatever corporate secrets that the shadowrunners are getting paid to protect. And that's just in an office building. Think about a factory, where a ten minute interruption in production could cost ten thousand yen.

So, does Ares get this stuff insured? Of course they do. But insurance companies adjust their rates based on the level of risk. If you have a good security system installed your rates go down. Sometimes enough that the savings justify the whole cost of the system.

If Ares puts in a factory or office building they have to protect it because no on else will. Why spend thousands on maglocks (even a rating 1 maglock costs 75 yen, multiply that by all the locks) and then go cheap on personnel? If they're corporate, they work for Ares for life. They'll draw a measley salary either way, so why not chrome them up. That set of Wired Reflexes costs 55,000 now, but the guard may work for you for 25 years, which makes the cost per year much more attractive (and less than his salary).

It's not like Ares is strapped for cash. Even if they were, they'd just take out a business loan and make the payments over time. Besides, there's no way a AAA or AA will pay full retail price for cyberware. Add in the possibility that you can get the guard himself to pass over a chunk of his salary every month to "buy" the 'ware in question and suddenly the whole thing looks real affordable. The goons are happy, because they get better at kicking ass. The corp is happy because it gets better goons.

Of course, chrome ain't everything. I still give guys like this pretty low skill ratings because they don't train much, but a little bit of chrome goes a long way in beefing up the opposition, trust me.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE
Has anyone else had the problem that a printed run's adversaries are no real problem for their group?


At a glance, they always seem a little underpowered to me, but that's because I have a group of players with strong characters and they're a very balanced team. However, there are always ways that these 'Joe Shmoes' can turn into more formidable opponents. Modifiers normally do the trick for me in these situations. For instance, a straight up battle with the PCs might warrant insta-death for the NPC guards, unless I have them flip over a table, take cover, seal the building, call for backup, alert Lone Star, and have the security rigger turn on the auto turrets.

Sometimes I find that including an extra character or two helps. Other times, all that I need to do is use some of the rules found in other sourcebooks (Security Handbook, Lone Star response, etc.).
TeOdio
You could always slip Kamikaze into their coffee each Morning biggrin.gif
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DrJest
When I've written out adventures for others to use, I've always left the exact stats to them and worked on a Threat Rating system to say how tough they should be. I don't think I can stress enough that opponents should be matched to the party's power level. Any printed adventure that I've read (which exlcudes most of the 3e ones) has always, imho, been aimed at starting characters, with the exception of Harlqequin's Back which assumes a more experienced team and particularly one which went through Harlequin.
Crimson Jack
Brainscan requires a bit of 'karma under the belt' IMO also.
algcs
QUOTE (TeOdio)
You could always slip Kamikaze into their coffee each Morning

I'm thinking that will be in the OH DREK bag in the security office. Pop the pills when needed and BAM!

As far as ramping up the guards go does the guy you have checking badges really need wired 3? Seriously, he has been standing at the door for 5 years making sure people swipe their badge and use the retinal scanner. He missed 3 people that walked out with equipment last year. Knights Errant put a bid in to do our security work for exactly what our security budget was last year. We'll get 2 guards durning the day and armored drones here at night. Their HRT has a response time of 10 mins from an alarm and their insurance covers any damage they cause. No I don't know how they got our budget?
Arz
QUOTE (The Grifter)
Ya know, I work as a security guard, and I personally know there's no way in hell anyone is going to just put shotgun under my desk, just in case. What if I have to go to the bathroom, or go to grab a cup of coffee. Anyone who knows (and there WILL be people who know) where that shotgun is located is going to grab it and take off the econd I turn my back.

I have to agree with you there. My experience in plants/shops is that if you leave your tools laying around someone will swipe them. Even if that doesn't happen, your super may come down on you for having an illegal, not in the manual, tool in your kit.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Garland)
Then again, there are the Tir Ghosts in the Corporate Punishment book...

Can you give a brief description of these guys for those of us unlucky enough not to own corporate punishment? Or perhaps they've made it into a more recent book?

In my campaign Tir Tairngire has mostly withdrawn itself from the world. Its borders are closed to most outsiders. It allows transport of goods through its territory but all shipments are fullt searched when they enter and again when they leave. I've established that they have badass border gaurds, but not what those gaurds are like, and I'd love to find a canon source for them.
mfb
okay, here's a brief descri--oh, sorry, they just killed you.

you will receive the description posthumously: most are adepts, several are initiates, all have appropriate weapon skills of 8+, all have ruthenium.
BitBasher
QUOTE
It might be worth reconsidering the whole joe-schmo security guard anyway. I mean, in 2064 there is no government funded police.
There's a big nisconception there, and it's that Lone Star IS a publicly funded police department. Lone Star is publicly contracted and funded by the city to perform policing duties.

QUOTE
Lone Star only protects things they're being paid to protect, and you can bet they charge a lot.
Which with a few exceptions, they are paid to protect and enforce the laws of the entire metroplex, consisting of everyplace that is public property of private property that's not extraterritorial.

QUOTE
Corporate terrirtory is extranational anyway, so that means that there is no help on the way whatsoever.
You mean no Lone Star help. If the stuff hits the fan you can bet that sec forces from other facilities owned by the victim corp can and will send reinforcements to an affected facility.
mfb
incidentally, the Ghosts aren't border security. border security is handled by the Tir Peace Force, supplemented by Paladin groups formed by mean rich kids. the rich kid Paladin groups are apparently pretty effective.
James McMurray
Gracias. smile.gif
Garland
mfb forgot to mention the tricked-out SMG's with nothing but APDS. Those guys are rough.

Edit: and even the Awakened guys have a little betaware, as I recall.
Rev
For an ordinary office building, mall, etc my security guards were always pretty weak. But then their job was to call for help. The only way the runners could get in trouble in such a place was to wait for it to arrive. Then when they are facing a couple squads of lone star, or whoever, in armored vehicles, with helicopter and lots of astral support they were usually in over their heads for fighting, or starting to expend weapons that made the run a money looser (eg anti-vehicle missiles).

Even in more secure facilities the regular on site guards usually weren't too much trouble. They were at the point where they could sometimes get a few minor wounds onto the players, the main thing was that they were more alert and the backup was coming quicker and the physical security meant that once it was awakened the runners had a lot more trouble completing thier mission before the response. The renraku mall wasn't a death trap for anyone causing trouble because every guard strolling around the place looking for shoplifters had wired reflexes 3, but because if there was trouble they were more likely to see it and could seal the exits and saturate the astral in 30 seconds, have a dozen or more heavily armed guys in the place in a minute or so with more on the way and they knew exactly where you were from all thier cameras.
Xirces
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
From an author's perspective, the stats for adversaries are always the most difficult part for me to write. I mean, I don't know who exactly I'm shaping them towards.

Sorry to say, but this is IMO wrong...

The first rule of any placement (item person, or plot hook) in any book, film, game module (or computer game for that matter) is "why is it there"?

Runners are more powerful than most petty criminals, so what? They should find that breaking and entering into Granny's apartment is pretty simple - that's why they get paid so well (except of course, that they don't by the book - that's another issue, or maybe it's the same one).

Even on a 1st level D&D dungeon crawl shouldn't the first question be - what is this place *used* for? If it's to keep people in then security will be focused on that and you don't leave your treasure and weapons next to the cells...

Security (in a modern setting especially) should be about cost and risk. If it's cheaper to merely insure something then why bother with expensive alarms and locks (except the insurance company will mandate certain things, and the additional value in not having something stolen rather than replacing it)? Would you pay 10 people $100,000/year to protect assets worth a $1m if the risk of having them stolen was virtually nothing? Probably not, but you might pay people half that... which equates to lower quality security...

If the runners are good then typical guards will be easy, but they've got the quality to go for more difficult targets and higher payroll, which will naturally have better opposition.

Look at a good real world example - wasn't the plan to equip all passenger jets in the US with anti-missile defenses just scrapped due to cost? Sure, it would make everyone feel safer, but even the US government has some limit to spending on just cosmetics - why would Ares (for example), a profit driven organisation, be any less money motivated?
mfb
except that, when writing a shadowrun--especially for publication--your first goal isn't creating a self-consistent, internally-logical world where everything makes sense. it's creating a working scenario that a wide array of groups can play through and have fun. in D&D, everything's pretty standardized; one party of 1st-level adventurers will generally be as capable as another party of the same level. in SR, two teams with an average of 30 karma each can be completely different in terms of capability, and that's where the difficulty comes in. making an encounter the same for every runner group is basically punishing some groups for their playing style, and rewarding others.
BitBasher
QUOTE
except that, when writing a shadowrun--especially for publication--your first goal isn't creating a self-consistent, internally-logical world where everything makes sense.
Well, except for the "for publication" part that exactly what I do when I create a run. To do otherwise I feel really whacks the crap out of suspension of disbelief. The key is to have someplace that would have defenses that will challenge the players and then havea run go there, not to build the place you want them to then figure out a way to make it challenging. At least that's my opinion. I think doing somehting just for the sake of "it's cool" is absolutely horrible and sloppy.
Sabosect
One other thing to remember is the US government doesn't have large numbers of well-armed and experienced people trying to break into their facilities and steal everything not nailed down (though the experts bring crowbars to remove the nails) every week. I bet Ares and other megacorps do.
Mensche
Rating 3 is average. anything above that is above average.

Therefore, having Pistols 4 is actually better than 'good', its 'quite good' (you could roll 8 dice with combat pool. more than enough to kill someone with style).
Its when you have Pistols 2 that you suck (you shot the guy in the gut and he's bleeding all over the place, whereas pistols 4 guy was blowing faces off).

The insurance thing strikes a very good point. It wouldnt make sense for a corp to hire goons in certain areas.
James McMurray
I'm the other way around. I decide what the charcters should be doing (extraction, wetwork, etc.) and then find a place that would reasonably provide a challenge (or in some cases be way beyond the group's capabilities). Every so often they'll get a fairly easy run too, just so they get a chance to flex their muscles and remember how tough they are when not fighting elite corporate gaurds, big mojo mages, etc.

Of course, so far we've just been at the point where normal runs are dificult.
Solstice
Maybe this has been mentioned but as a GM you should be adjusting these encounters for your group to suit your purposes anyway.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Xirces @ Feb 1 2005, 05:06 PM)
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Feb 1 2005, 05:33 PM)
From an author's perspective, the stats for adversaries are always the most difficult part for me to write.  I mean, I don't know who exactly I'm shaping them towards.

Sorry to say, but this is IMO wrong...

You're missing the point. That's the nice thing about D&D modules in this respect because the whole level/challange rating system allows you to account for a certain standard power level when designing an adventure, and then you can slap a line on the back, "For characters level 6-8."

SR has no real way to duplicate that. Karma is a massively imprecise way to gauge character power (as has been shown in myriad discussions here) so there's no real good way to assign a 'challange rating' to a group of NPCs. It's up to the GM to tone them up or down as needed.
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