So a long time ago I was reading about Burnout and Ryan Mercury and all that wonderful Jazz.. My question deals with the free Spirit Lithe. I got the feeling that Lithe was the spirit of Big D minus the physical form. Aparently I havent seen a topic on it, So I was curious what the deal was with him.

Along those same lines:

I heard that the novel "Headhunter" had something to do with D's death, but I couldn't get through it (because I think Mel Odom's a lousy writer).

So what exactly happened that had anything to do with his death in that novel?

@ Frog:

no idea, I found the idea that a great dragon would a) be elected by human electorate in contravention of millions of years of evolutionary instinct, and b) then somehow killed to be so absurd that it's one of the major reasons I won't switch from SR2 to SR3

*blinks* You can play with SR3 rules and not use the SR3 timeline. . .

[And your analysis of the events show that you actually don't have a clear view of what caused Dunkelzahn's death.]

Well Peter then you can blame your fellow SR players, becayse Dunkie won via ballots that were in previous sourcebooks, and he was elected by your fellow shadowrun players.

Second, Dunkie was not killed like you seem to imply, but I won't post spoilers, there are many others here that will.

Its Fogg not Frog..

For anyone who hasn't read the Dragon Heart Saga, the following is a spoiler.

The spirit you are thinking of is names Lethe (after the river), not Lithe. It is indeed the spirit of Dunklezahn. For a complete story on him read the Dragon Heart Saga.

Okay thats what I thought, sorry for the misspelling of Lethe..
Thank you muchly

@ Adam:

The SR3 books are better, though.

Gee, if only one event shook you up that badly, let it be known that Dunky was elected during the course of SR2. SR3 starts in 2060, years after his death. As for the "why would anyone vote for a great dragon?" question, it really boils down to two things: a) the other candidates just weren't up to snuff. Personally, the idea of the other big players winning the 2057 election would've seemed like a lose-lose situation to me. Just about every one of them had skeletons in the closet, it's just that Dunkie's bones had nothing to do with the Sixth World (or couldn't be proven, take your pick). b) well, it's Dunkelzahn. It really never mattered that he was a great dragon or that he had thousands of years of experience with humanity (or the other stuff), it was that he was the best possible candidate for President, and admittedly (coming back to the great dragon thing), the possibility of a President who could out-think, outfox, and outmanuever any of the heads of the megacorporations (with Knight and Lofwyr being distinct maybes) is a pleasing one. I mean, if it was Lofwyr or Lung or Aden, that's be another thing, but well...Dunky had some qualities that could be considered important for a great dragon to have.

Anyway, poo-pooing a game system just because one event (one that has consequences that don't even affect your average runner like RA:S or the fall of Fuchi might) rubs you the wrong way is makes no sense, since the system has absolutely nothing to do with the event timeline. Granted the only problem I have is trying to manage a 2053-2063 SR campaign and juggling the technological advances of the Matrix at the same time, so that a decker would have to adjust from the SR1 matrix all the way up to the SR3 standard, but that is neither here nor there.

Anyway, as to that Lethe/Dunkelzahn connection, yes, it's already been answered. Admittedly, I can't find that third book anywhere, but as far as I understand the situation, that's the gist of it.

My site isnae required reading or anything for those who refuse or cannot by the books, but it wouldn't kill some of you to at least glance at it. I made huge lists of the sourcebooks and novels and shit for a reason, y'know?

Or (c ) he (probably) wouldn't eat you if you don't vote for him (poor etiquette, don't you know), but you're not at all sure about that Yeats fellow ...

I personally find it more shocking that GW Bush was elected than Dunkelzahn, but that just opens up the can of worms that is politics...

Yeah, FASA was trying to drag themselves out of the corner they painted themselves in...suuuure. Okay, let's make the presidential candidates our players get to choose from Some Dude We've Never Heard Of, Some Dude We've Never Heard Of 2, Some Chick We've Never Heard Of, and a Great Dragon that's been a major poster in two sourcebooks, a major subject of many bits of fiction in the game world, and a well-liked character. Gee, I wonder if FASA had any idea in advance who would win...you know, with the whole bit of DAMN NEAR EVERY PLOTLINE FOLLOWING drawing DIRECTLY from Big D's death.

Bakayaro!!

The Annoyed One

Can of worms open...

This is getting way off topic and should definately belong in the Lounge, but...

The Supreme Court did not appoint any president. He was elected in a proper election and won fair and square. The Florida State Supreme Court told Gore that they coudln't go changing the rules of the election after the fact and besides none of the official or unofficial recounts of the Florida votes ever put Gore in the lead in that state, including the ones that Gore paid for.

If you people can't understand how the electoral college and the elections sytem in the country work you might want to pick up a civics book.

And just so you know, I'm not a supporter of Bush or the Republican party in any way.

This again? Christ would people get over it and stop whining? I mean, if Gore had managed to just carry his home state all of that would have been moot IIRC.

Translation: If Bush bought anybody, it was the Electoral College. our votes don't actually mean anything. Even if Gore had gotten 15,000 more votes in Florida, he'd still have lost.

@ Ancient History
I had read through your geocities site before posting my question. I didnt find anything about Lethe on them, I even checked it again after I found out I had spelled it wrong.

I guess another question might be what Lethe and Burnout are upto these days... I know they are probably still sitting on the metaplanes, but you know itd be neat if someone went to talk to the Big D and see whats happening

@ Bit Basher

The Terminator is about to be elected govenor of California
.....and you've got a problem with Dunklezahn being elected not being realistic?

I buy that the public elected Dunklezahn. I don't buy that the election was anything approaching close.

As to Bush.... No I refuse to be drawn into that argument.

@Peter Pan

Yeah using cannon can be a pain in the petunias... I dont really use cannon for much of anything storywise since politics dont affect any players I have had directly.

@Everyone
In any case I did start this thread as a question about Lethe, a character in a book. Not about the plausability of Big D being President, or about SR2 vs SR3. No point in having a heated argument about something that isnt really important. I am sorry if bringing up this topic brought that up. So if you have anything to discuss ON TOPIC, please do. I really would like peoples guesses as to whats happning with Lethe and Burnout now that its several years down the line. I gotta wonder if any of the other greats went to the metaplanes to talk to the Big D after the bridge was shattered.

Anyways I hope we can stay ON TOPIC please.

(This means no arguing over real or fantasy world politics.)

Awright, how about this:

1.) Nobody has to use rules/metaplot they don't want to.

2.) People who don't have to use rules/metaplots they don't want to don't need to imply or outright state that the material other people use and like is substandard. Saying somebody is doing it all wrong and then saying they can't tell you what to do when they object isn't a very good way of defending your own position.

So now onto more important things, like who would win in a mud-wrestling contest: Dunkelzehn or Ibn Eisa?

My money's on the mud.

I believe Ibn Eisa is the leader of the New Jihad. Check Dot6W I believe he is in the Aden section.

ummm.... don't have Dot6W... so I don't even know what the New Jihad is (the old one seemed to be working fine...)

Ibn Eisa's mentioned prominently in Year of the Comet, I believe. Basically, he was a moderate Islamic leader who was assasinated, rose from the dead and pronounced an Islamic Jihad! Now everyone wants to know why he's not dead.

And Year of the Comet is the first mentioning of Shedim, which inhabit the bodies of the dead.

Ah, the voice of sanity...

Oops, no. Just me.

Okay, I'll try mummy...

hmm.


I (coincidentally) just finished re-reading the Dragon Heart Saga. In answer to our thread-starter's questions:

Lethe = Dunkelzahn, yes.

As for current whereabouts? Well here is the supposition.

With the death of the being Thayla, Lethe,took up the dragon heart, using its power (the mana channeled into it by Dunkelzahn's ritual - you know, the one that coincided with his explosive suicide?) to level out the mana spikes on "our" side of the chasm. With the task completed, I would assume that the Billy/Lethe entity (as it would by now have become, since the two were intertwining rapidly) would remain at the metaplanar chasm to take Thayla's place as a defending entity.

Plus, now that Lethe remembers his past as Dunkelzahn, wouldn't he have taken some role in the Draco foundation if he had come back?

Anyway... just rambling on now, so I'll stop and let you rest your eyes...

Jeezus. can people not use the spoiler tags?
I suppose there's no point now but:

The Horrors in Shadowrun are probably dead. Since the companies making Shadowrun and Earthdawn are now competitors (even if amiable ones), odds are they won't be doing too much more crossover-type stuff anytime soon. Both companies have said they will remain in communication and make sure they don't step on the other's toes (like FanPro saying that the lost kaern (can't remember the name, starts with a P) is back while Living Room Games saying that it was lost forever), but don't expect some big crossover-type event like with the Horrors again anytime soon. That is unless WizKids (which still owns both properties and is simply licensing them to FanPro and LRG) steps in and asks for one...

Then again, with Shadowrun I've learned to expect the unexpected

The Abstruse One

There's been a lot of SR/ED cross-over in Fanpro and Lrg's material, but it's much more subtle.

Lets get something straight, FASA had licensed Earthdawn to LRGs (meaning it kept the property rights to the game). When it went under a bunch of those rights went over to Wizkids (including Earthdawn) and Wizkids chose to continue the deal FASA had with LRG. This is nothing new.

I'm very sorry Lilt, really. I wasn't thinking.

On a related topic, HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

You write [ spoiler ] without the spaces followed by [ /spoiler ] without the spaces to close the caption.

Well, even if ED doesn't crossover so much, we still have those nice Wraith beasties from Paranormal Animals of Europe. Creepy lil' buggers.

Who is Lithe, you ask?
Well the the girl behind the counter at this cyber cafe is....

Oh, did I get here late?

Hot Wheels,

Boondocker

With the CZ, read the trilogy and you'll understand. Us explaining it on here would take too long and just end up confusing you more.

And no, I'm not using the damn spoiler tags because if anyone hadn't read what was spoiled, no one would know what the hell I was talking about anyway

The Abstruse One

I spoke with Mike Mulvihill through email not too long before the Big D bit the big one. I argued long & hard that a change in plot direction wasn't needed, but in the end the FASA bigwigs decided to move in a different direction after the torch was passed from Tom Dowd (one of the original creators of ED & SR) to Mulvhill.

Mike was never a fan of ED, and he was even had less love for ED/SR interconnection. Mike wanted to move SR into a more Blade Runner-ish corporate conflict model. FASA's SR sales were suffering at the time, and they felt they needed to create a stir. They decided to solve both problems by eliminating the most high profile connection of the ED/SR crossover i.e. Dunkelzahn. Mike's words were something to the effect of "the pot had gotten stagnant...we killed Dunkelzahn to stir things up a bit. " There were a great deal of storylines that have spun off from the death of Dunkelzahn.

The whole character idea of Lethe was designed to give the fans the glimmer of hope that Dunkelzahn would return, even though FASA had no intentions of ever doing so. It was a gesture to mollify fans like me. The idea of Lethe/Burnout standing on the bridge was supposed to be Dunkelzahn's riding off into the sunset.

Its interesting to see that FanPro/WizKids are teasing a return of the plot like with the Comet/Ghostwalker storyline. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it pans out. One of the possible plots could be a return of Dunkelzahn a la Ghostwalker. Ghostwalker (i.e. Icewing) had previously summoned the spirit of his deceased mate. It may be possible that he would try and do the same for his brother.