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Nikoli
Stun from failure to soak spell drain heals normally, not hyper regen speed
Tarantula
No, it'd heal at 1box a minute like physical drain.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (U_Fester)
Thanks for all the info. Now I can see why one of the guys wants to play this so baddly.... that and he averages a player getting killed every 1.5 games.

Mwah hwah hwah! For the ultimate insult, let him play the shapeshifter, but set up challenging tactical scenarios so that he dies an average of 6 times per game and end up with a similar PC death rate. rotfl.gif
algcs
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
For the ultimate insult, let him play the shapeshifter, but set up challenging tactical scenarios so that he dies an average of 6 times per game and end up with a similar PC death rate. rotfl.gif

I'm the other GM that U_Fester plays with. The shifter surviving is more of a problem for the PCs than me as GM.
Tinman
I think I've read that shapeshifters can only access the matrix through tortoise mode. 'Trodes won't work with their animal brains.

Though I guess that's only really a disadvantage if the matrix is a major part of your game.
U_Fester
QUOTE (algcs)
I'm the other GM that U_Fester plays with. The shifter surviving is more of a problem for the PCs than me as GM.

You make a very good point. The idea of him NOT dying is scarier than him dying every other game. eek.gif
tisoz
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
<snip> and at the start, you can either have one contact, or some gear, but not both.

If your game involves lots of gun combat, then a shifter is probably going to have some balance issues. Killing them outright is tough, but the drawbacks tend to keep them in under control.

Almost, but if you are using edges and flaws, from the same book, the shapeshifter could take the extra contact edge and keep his starting resources.
U_Fester
QUOTE (tisoz)
Almost, but if you are using edges and flaws, from the same book, the shapeshifter could take the extra contact edge and keep his starting resources.

but do you really want to risk adding yet another flaw to your shifter? The ones they have are biggies to begin with.
tisoz
Hunted seems appropriate.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (U_Fester)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 9 2005, 02:57 PM)
Almost, but if you are using edges and flaws, from the same book, the shapeshifter could take the extra contact edge and keep his starting resources.

but do you really want to risk adding yet another flaw to your shifter? The ones they have are biggies to begin with.

You don't need to, just sac a build point.

~J
mfb
shapeshifters are pretty low on those to begin with, though.
Necro Tech
Several people have mentioned cyber/bioware for your shifter.

A.) They start with almost no money.

B.) They can't have any cyber/bio ever. You can't perform surgery on them until after they are dead.
Kagetenshi
Sure you can. It just takes a weapon focus scalpel and a failed Essence test.

~J
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 9 2005, 03:57 PM)
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Feb 9 2005, 06:57 AM)
<snip> and at the start, you can either have one contact, or some gear, but not both.

If your game involves lots of gun combat, then a shifter is probably going to have some balance issues.  Killing them outright is tough, but the drawbacks tend to keep them in under control.

Almost, but if you are using edges and flaws, from the same book, the shapeshifter could take the extra contact edge and keep his starting resources.

Hah, so then if I were another PC I'd just use lots of grenades around him. "You can take it, but the bad guys can't!"

After the 8th time, "Ohnoes! A 1! That was totally unexpected!"


nyahnyah.gif nyahnyah.gif nyahnyah.gif nyahnyah.gif nyahnyah.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Sure you can. It just takes a weapon focus scalpel and a failed Essence test.

~J

That doesn't help their body reject foreign matter, it just keeps the wound open. Is the bioware a weapon focus too?
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Necro Tech @ Feb 9 2005, 08:17 PM)
Several people have mentioned cyber/bioware for your shifter.

A.) They start with almost no money.

B.) They can't have any cyber/bio ever. You can't perform surgery on them until after they are dead.

There's nothing canon against them having bioware. They can even have cyberware. They don't get to keep it, but they can get it. Regeneration makes the surgery difficult, not impossible, and their body rejects cyberware, not bioware.
tisoz
So what is the TN modifier on the surgery table for shapeshifters?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 9 2005, 06:28 PM)
Sure you can. It just takes a weapon focus scalpel and a failed Essence test.

~J

That doesn't help their body reject foreign matter, it just keeps the wound open. Is the bioware a weapon focus too?

Note that I said "sure you can" instead of "sure they can". It applied to the claim that you couldn't perform surgery on them, not that they couldn't have 'ware.

~J
Necro Tech
As all physical damage vanishes at the end of the round, even with silver and or weapon foci, good luck having a 4 or 5 hour implant surgery go well. A weapon foci can kill them if they fail an essense check after taking deadly damage which brings me back to my original point.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Feb 9 2005, 08:42 PM)
and their body rejects cyberware, not bioware.

The bioware that's been described in published material so far, was primarily designed to be compatible with metahuman genetics. Shifters are not metahumans. They are awakened animals that can assume a human-like form.

To have a piece of bioware that can be implanted in a shifter, the bioware implant in question would have to be re-designed from scratch to be compatable with the shifter genome. Unlike making a bioware implant more compatable with a metahuman host it's implanted in, by changing out the handful of sections of DNA that code for marker protiens on the cell surfaces of the new tissues, this would be much more involved of a process.

Of course, such a thing wouldn't be impossible given the resources of any of the mid-to-high level biotechnology firms. They designed a version of the implant that'd work with metahumans, they can design a version that works with shapeshifters. But they're not going to do this out of the goodness of their heart, they'll want a return on investment.

With bioware designed for metahumanity, there's an obivous market. However, there's virtually no consumer market for shifter compatable bioware. There are a lot less shifters out there than metahumans, and only a fraction of them attempt to participate in metahuman society, and only a fraction of those receive the accpetance they'd need to be able to personally amass the funds to pay for the implant and the implanting, and of the ones that can pay, only a fraction would chose to have the surgery. In other words, there's no way for a corp who develops shifter bioware to recoup their investment if they had to depend on shifters electing to get the implants under their own free will.

However, It's within the realm of possibility that a corp might have a secret project where they'd enslaved shifters for use as guard animals, and also wanted them to have Bioware. So in theory, there is still a way for a biotech firm to recoup the initial investment of developing the implants in the first place. The catch is, the shifter character (PC or NPC) becomes closely tied with the corp that footed the bill.
Capt. Dave
Hmm. Interesting point. A few questions:
So what of cultured bioware?
Why shouldn't bioware work in human form? Who's to say that when a shapeshifter takes human form that he doesn't make a genetic change as well? Does a shapeshifter in human form have the same genetic code as the animal from whence it transformed? I don't see how that's possible.
While your view has merit, there's no canonical backup for it.
Cochise
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
So what of cultured bioware?

Pretty much the same: You'd need a corp that did the base research for implants on the shifter genome.
Once that reasearch has been done, there's no reason why such implants couldn't be implanted, provided that you harm the shifter often and severely enough to cause his regen to fail at least once. Any other means of achieving that goal (like a special drug that prevents regeneration) would do as well.

The question that you have to ask yourself is: Is regeneration a genetic trait or a magical one?
If it's a genetic trait, you'd be able to integrate any availible bioware implant, based on shifter genome, including the regeneration. Such specialized bioware would potentially work in either shape. Suitable bioindex values would be required in the off-play section.

If regeneration a magical trait, your possibilities will even be broader: You can make up any reason why such specialzed implants work or don't work, because "it's magic" ...

QUOTE
Why shouldn't bioware work in human form?


Just a matter of proper "design" ...

QUOTE
Who's to say that when a shapeshifter takes human form that he doesn't make a genetic change as well?


"Logic" says that this isn't the case. The SR setting so far isn't a high fantasy setting where things just "are". Even the standard "magical" gift in SR is said to be connected to genetics to a certain extrend.
So for the SR setting it's more reasonable to view the shifter's ability to be somewhat connected to his genes as well.

QUOTE
Does a shapeshifter in human form have the same genetic code as the animal from whence it transformed?


If his shifting abilities are connected to his genes he most definitely will have a 100% identical genetic code in either form. It's just a question of which genes currently being in an active state.
Basic law of genetics: Genotype != Phenotype

QUOTE
I don't see how that's possible.


Actually I can't see it otherwise: If the shifter were to lose any genetic code during his transformation he would be able to transform back ...

QUOTE
While your view has merit, there's no canonical backup for it.


Of course there are some canonical sources: M&M goes into detail about how bioware works: It's tailored to suit the human genome ... Shifters are described as not being human (which normaly includes having a different genome).
=> Basis for the view that conventional bioware (even if "cultured") doesn't work for shifter. The principles that are used to create that bioware could be applied to the shifter genome as well, but that would still require research. And such research so far is canonically not mentioned.
Necro Tech
A problem with adding bioware to a shifter (I'll let go the fact the surgery would be unrealistic) is that bioware is not actually part of you. It interfers with all healing tests and if it takes serious or greater damage it needs outside help to heal it. That and the fact that adding a synthacardium to a human and lets say a fox heart are very different processes. Some stuff like platelet factories don't care what cardiovascular system they are running through but cat's eyes, cerebral booster, orthoskin, these things are too different in human and animal. Absolutely nothing in cannon supports implant functionality when a human transforms into an animal when using shape change or the involuntary one (forget name). Magic can't heal it so why would a magical ability?

I would be very surprised if they simply forgot to add bioware into the things that shifters can't have. Anyone one want to ask ShadowFaq?
hobgoblin
personaly i would just lump bio (and nano for that matter) under the cyberware header when it comes to stuff like who can and cant have it.

how exactly should a book released before the book about bioware or nanoware contain a reference to say that someone cant have it?

only way that can happen i guess is if the book on bio and nano extends on the info in the older books by reference. problem is that this is rarely done (just look at the confusion created around security tallys in the matrix rules in sr3 vs matrix).
tisoz
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
how exactly should a book released before the book about bioware or nanoware contain a reference to say that someone cant have it?

Shadowrun Companion came out after Shadowtech, which is where bioware got introduced. I'm sure there were plans to update that book as well as Cybertechnology, which happened in the form of the book you allude to, Man and Machine.

To think that bioware did not exist before M&M is absurd.
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