jesus god. okay, why would anyone ever get delta grade? what happens to cyberzombies, plot-wise? why would anyone ever play an adept again, ever, at all? or a mage, for that matter? or anything but a full-conversion cyborg with no organic matter left at all? how would bioware interact with a metal monstrosity like that? can you affect the living mind of something that's technically no longer living?
that's a good idea, though. while we're at it, lets turn all the dragons into doughnuts. i like doughnuts better than dragons. i'm also crippled by my own insanity.
Full Version: What new Cyber/Bio do you want?
Erm, I don't think anyone's suggesting that getting rid of essence limits is an instant fix. At least, I hope not. It's obvious that a lot more would need to be done to fix the rules.
That said, with SR being as cyberphobic as it is, it remains impossible to make someone non living without killing him.
That said, with SR being as cyberphobic as it is, it remains impossible to make someone non living without killing him.
I dunno, mfb, I'd like to play a starting samurai with maximum resources who doesn't have to worry about spending money on customization grades, so he can get Muscle Replacement(4), Wired Reflexes(3), Dermal Sheathing(3), Titanium Bone Lacing, and Reaction Enhancer(6), and have no concern about his Essence being -9.35.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 12 2005, 02:32 AM) |
| jesus god. okay, why would anyone ever get delta grade? |
Make the better grades better quality, less maintenance, more durable, etc.. I have never had a runner get delta anything since M&M came out, or third edition came out for that matter. Look at all the crap that gets thrown in the way of people around here even suggesting a PC having delta. How did they find the clinic? How could they possibly afford it? Why did they not just buy a permanent high lifestyle and retire?
The other suggestions about lowering the cost of cyber, in effect does the same thing by allowing players to get higher grades and cram more cyber in.
| QUOTE |
| what happens to cyberzombies, plot-wise? |
Who gives a flying frag? Oh yeah, you do. I guess the same thing as what happened to spell locks. They are still around, they just get upgraded to fit the new essence limit.
| QUOTE |
| why would anyone ever play an adept again, ever, at all? or a mage, for that matter? or anything but a full-conversion cyborg with no organic matter left at all? |
I thought the problem was everyone wanted to play an adept or mage. Supposedly, no one in their right mind would play a mundane. How is this hurting the magically active? they can still cyber up same as always, geas magic loss away (a whole lot more geas), initiate to keep their magic higher than their lost essence. The difference is there is now not a ceiling on Sams keeping up with the adepts.
Oh look, here's a reason someone would want the higher grades of cyber, the magically active, bringing more balance to the system.
| QUOTE |
| how would bioware interact with a metal monstrosity like that? |
Bioware has its own limits with interacting with cyber. A lot of it says what is incompatable, if it doesn't, use some common sense. As it is, you can have 6 points worth of cyber and have very little metal in your body, so leave off your emotional verbage.
| QUOTE |
| can you affect the living mind of something that's technically no longer living? |
jesus god. okay, rework the game mechanic so that essence isn't equated to life. It is equated to the ability to wield magic.
| QUOTE |
| that's a good idea, though. while we're at it, lets turn all the dragons into doughnuts. i like doughnuts better than dragons. i'm also crippled by my own insanity. |
I think we can agree on this.
| QUOTE (Wireknight) |
| I dunno, mfb, I'd like to play a starting samurai with maximum resources who doesn't have to worry about spending money on customization grades, so he can get Muscle Replacement(4), Wired Reflexes(3), Dermal Sheathing(3), Titanium Bone Lacing, and Reaction Enhancer(6), and have no concern about his Essence being -9.35. |
Better re-check your math. And how unbalancing would that be with no vision mods, reflex trigger, or smartlink?
[QUOTE]3. I think it would be nice if the body/spirit's natural healing capacity kicked in to restore lost essence. Maybe .1 a week or month.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Ugh, no. If it regenerated by month everyone's characters would suddenly start becoming weird escaped experiments who were implanted as infants, with 24.9 Essence-worth of 'ware and 6 Essence. nyahnyah.gif[QUOTE]
I should have been clearer on what I meant. Under the rules in Man & Machine, once essence is lost it is never recovered, even if you have a piece of cyberware removed and replaced with bioware. Or essence lost to a vampire will never come back. It also removes the bit about having to have specially performed cybersurgery to fill in missing essence slots.
[/QUOTE]There is no Body Index. Right now it's Bio Index, and it's max is 9, though you kinda get hosed on drawbacks if it ever goes above (Essence+3).[QUOTE]
Excuse me for not rereading the book everytime I post something. I think you know what I was referring to. Also, going above nine kills you, which I consider to be a very big drawback.
The idea was to have the maximum body index tied to your Essence + 1/2 your body. For example, an ork with a body of 8 would have 10 points of body index.
[QUOTE]Ugh, no. If it regenerated by month everyone's characters would suddenly start becoming weird escaped experiments who were implanted as infants, with 24.9 Essence-worth of 'ware and 6 Essence. nyahnyah.gif[QUOTE]
I should have been clearer on what I meant. Under the rules in Man & Machine, once essence is lost it is never recovered, even if you have a piece of cyberware removed and replaced with bioware. Or essence lost to a vampire will never come back. It also removes the bit about having to have specially performed cybersurgery to fill in missing essence slots.
[/QUOTE]There is no Body Index. Right now it's Bio Index, and it's max is 9, though you kinda get hosed on drawbacks if it ever goes above (Essence+3).[QUOTE]
Excuse me for not rereading the book everytime I post something. I think you know what I was referring to. Also, going above nine kills you, which I consider to be a very big drawback.
The idea was to have the maximum body index tied to your Essence + 1/2 your body. For example, an ork with a body of 8 would have 10 points of body index.
So, what, you wanna hose low-Body Mages now, huh, do ya?</elitist Awakend player>
| QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman @ Feb 13 2005, 02:32 AM) |
| Also, going above nine kills you, which I consider to be a very big drawback. |
I believe that going over 9 Bio-Index (or exceeding your Essence Index ... or however it's worded) puts a character in a permanent state of overstress, which definitely sucks, but doesn't outright kill them, as exceeding Essence does with Cyberware.
I'll try to make it clear:
Essence = 6 - cyberware loss (and vampire bites, and drug addition... you got the idea)
Bio Index = sum of bioware bio index
Essence Index = Essence + 3 = 9 - cyberware loss (...)
If (Essence <= 0) or (Bio Index > 9) Then Death()
If (Bio Index >= Essence Index) Then Excessive_Bioware_Drawbacks()
Or, if you rewrite the equations a bit to get something more direct:
If (Essence Loss >= 6) or (Bio Index > 9) Then Death()
If (Essence Loss + Bio Index >= 9) Then Excessive_Bioware_Drawback()
Essence = 6 - cyberware loss (and vampire bites, and drug addition... you got the idea)
Bio Index = sum of bioware bio index
Essence Index = Essence + 3 = 9 - cyberware loss (...)
If (Essence <= 0) or (Bio Index > 9) Then Death()
If (Bio Index >= Essence Index) Then Excessive_Bioware_Drawbacks()
Or, if you rewrite the equations a bit to get something more direct:
If (Essence Loss >= 6) or (Bio Index > 9) Then Death()
If (Essence Loss + Bio Index >= 9) Then Excessive_Bioware_Drawback()
Hey Tanka, if I wanted to hose low body mages would I really be an elitist awakened player? Or were you referring to yourself?
By the way if you capped a mage's bio Index at essence + 1/2 body, I would hardly call it hosed. A mage with a body of 4 could still have 8 points worth of cyber/bioware and a running shot at being a burnout.
By the way if you capped a mage's bio Index at essence + 1/2 body, I would hardly call it hosed. A mage with a body of 4 could still have 8 points worth of cyber/bioware and a running shot at being a burnout.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| I thought the problem was everyone wanted to play an adept or mage. Supposedly, no one in their right mind would play a mundane. How is this hurting the magically active? they can still cyber up same as always, geas magic loss away (a whole lot more geas), initiate to keep their magic higher than their lost essence. The difference is there is now not a ceiling on Sams keeping up with the adepts. |
see, that's only a convincing argument if you buy into it (which is, i suppose, self-evident). i don't. i see sams as being better than physads at chargen, better at the mid-range (~200 karma) and only slightly behind at the high end. mages, you'll have to ask someone else.
This is an insane proposition, and I like mundanes. Mundanes with chrome and guns. I mean, seriously -- read what you're suggesting. Then wait for the heroin to wear off, and read it again. Then blink a few times, think real hard, and read it one last time.
Then, repeat after me! "Game balance; GONE!"
Then, repeat after me! "Game balance; GONE!"
| QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 11 2005, 11:12 PM) |
| Just an idea for everyone to shred, but how about removing the the essence limit? Let essence still detract from magic, making it harder for mages to get cyber and keep magic. But otherwise let people get as much cyber as they want. Retool the social modifiers for cyber to account for more people having more cyber. Get rid of silly cybermancy. This way Sams can keep geting implants. |
But then so can Adepts....
No, I don't buy the arguement that mundanes are too weak, or no one wants to play them. See the thread I started about mundanes being too good out of the box. I just don't see where removing the essence limit is unbalancing. You can only afford so much cyber at chargen, after that use the surgery rules and recovery times. I also don't think a lot of GMs use the rules to check for cyber stress or damage, or not nearly as often as they invoke the rules for magic loss.
I have not seen any other suggestions that are as simple, but that try to affect the same results, like lowering essence cost, or revamping the costs of different cyber grades. If ignoring essence is too much then raise the limit to 9 or 12 or whatever sounds good.
Was it unbalancing when bioware used to be limited by Body? I remember a lot of trolls and orks being made as well as mages with starting Body about twice as high as now.
[edit]
I have not seen any other suggestions that are as simple, but that try to affect the same results, like lowering essence cost, or revamping the costs of different cyber grades. If ignoring essence is too much then raise the limit to 9 or 12 or whatever sounds good.
Was it unbalancing when bioware used to be limited by Body? I remember a lot of trolls and orks being made as well as mages with starting Body about twice as high as now.
[edit]
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| But then so can Adepts.... |
The essence still detracts from the magic attribute, so they need to pick up other geas or lose the point. [/edit]
The argument for increasing the Essence maximum (or for ignoring it entirely, if you're a mundane) is game balance, right? The heart of the game balance argument, as it relates to mundanes versus mages, is that at higher karma levels magically active characters will stomp all around the game, and the poor cybernetically enhanced mundanes will cower uselessly, right?
So if you freakin' have to do something crazy to increase the amount of chrome a mundane can take, besides letting them throw money at it with grades of cyberware, throw more money at it with surgical options, and have to think before installing something... why not make this "increased essence limit" for cyberware cost some karma?
I mean, if you've really got this bug up your butt to do it, as a way of balancing out higher-end games and letting mundanes "keep up," why not come up with some arbitrary karma cost, make them devote some time to dealing with the cyberware they've got (therapy, meditation, classes on cybertechnology), and have 'em buy back an essence point or something? Mages spend karma on new spells and their foci, Adepts spend karma on new power points and initiating, and mundanes spend karma to get back some essence so they can pack in more crap. 20 karma. Yeah. Here. As the inventer of this magnificent idea, I hereby proclaim 20 karma per essence point of recovery to be the acceptable ratio, as it's the same a baseline Adept (before MitS) paid for a power point.
At least that way it costs them something. It's still a completely insane idea, but if you have to do it, make them pay for it.
So if you freakin' have to do something crazy to increase the amount of chrome a mundane can take, besides letting them throw money at it with grades of cyberware, throw more money at it with surgical options, and have to think before installing something... why not make this "increased essence limit" for cyberware cost some karma?
I mean, if you've really got this bug up your butt to do it, as a way of balancing out higher-end games and letting mundanes "keep up," why not come up with some arbitrary karma cost, make them devote some time to dealing with the cyberware they've got (therapy, meditation, classes on cybertechnology), and have 'em buy back an essence point or something? Mages spend karma on new spells and their foci, Adepts spend karma on new power points and initiating, and mundanes spend karma to get back some essence so they can pack in more crap. 20 karma. Yeah. Here. As the inventer of this magnificent idea, I hereby proclaim 20 karma per essence point of recovery to be the acceptable ratio, as it's the same a baseline Adept (before MitS) paid for a power point.
At least that way it costs them something. It's still a completely insane idea, but if you have to do it, make them pay for it.
Bioware gills. Seems like something Proteus would have been looking into.
Hey guys, how about giving the option to spend karma to buy back essence. It would give the mundanes something to dump tons of karma into. You could limit it to mundanes only, or let mages do it, or say mages can do it but they don't get the magic point back. I think that might clear up a huge chunk of the magical/mundane imbalance.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The argument for increasing the Essence maximum (or for ignoring it entirely, if you're a mundane) is game balance, right? The heart of the game balance argument, as it relates to mundanes versus mages, is that at higher karma levels magically active characters will stomp all around the game, and the poor cybernetically enhanced mundanes will cower uselessly, right? So if you freakin' have to do something crazy to increase the amount of chrome a mundane can take, besides letting them throw money at it with grades of cyberware, throw more money at it with surgical options, and have to think before installing something... why not make this "increased essence limit" for cyberware cost some karma? I mean, if you've really got this bug up your butt to do it, as a way of balancing out higher-end games and letting mundanes "keep up," why not come up with some arbitrary karma cost, make them devote some time to dealing with the cyberware they've got (therapy, meditation, classes on cybertechnology), and have 'em buy back an essence point or something? Mages spend karma on new spells and their foci, Adepts spend karma on new power points and initiating, and mundanes spend karma to get back some essence so they can pack in more crap. 20 karma. Yeah. Here. As the inventer of this magnificent idea, I hereby proclaim 20 karma per essence point of recovery to be the acceptable ratio, as it's the same a baseline Adept (before MitS) paid for a power point. At least that way it costs them something. It's still a completely insane idea, but if you have to do it, make them pay for it. |
I could care less. I threw the idea out there, figuring it would be met with little enthusiasm.
But the discussion has now led to another idea, paying for it with karma. This sparked another idea.
How about making Ignore Essence Limit Priority A or 30 BP? Costs as much as being a full mage, powers down starting Sam, gives long term growth potential. Could have Karma for Essence, or a better name, as Priority B or 25 BP. Lets them buy a point of essence back at X (20 didn't sound bad) karma.
Feel free to shred, please don't think I am personally in favor of the change or care (mfb to name names.)
bah. what's the fun in tearing down ideas if it doesn't make the guy that thought of it cry inside?
seriously, though, most games just don't reach the point where the mages and adepts are consistently outperforming the sams. it will happen eventually, sure--if you play to 500+ karma.
even if you did, though, i don't think that character type offers any real mechanical advantage. you're sinking the point cost of being a mage or adept into something with zero immediate benefit; in order to take advantage of the lack of an essence cap at chargen, you'd also have to spent 30 points on resources, which means you'll have next to nothing left for skills and especially attributes. attributes are what let sams keep up with adepts: sams have high attributes, adepts have mediocre attributes. taking away from that, even if it means no essence cap, hurts a sam more than it helps.
seriously, though, most games just don't reach the point where the mages and adepts are consistently outperforming the sams. it will happen eventually, sure--if you play to 500+ karma.
even if you did, though, i don't think that character type offers any real mechanical advantage. you're sinking the point cost of being a mage or adept into something with zero immediate benefit; in order to take advantage of the lack of an essence cap at chargen, you'd also have to spent 30 points on resources, which means you'll have next to nothing left for skills and especially attributes. attributes are what let sams keep up with adepts: sams have high attributes, adepts have mediocre attributes. taking away from that, even if it means no essence cap, hurts a sam more than it helps.
All things being equal, Mages have no immediate benefit either, as they have no skills to perform magic. Absurd, yes. I was thinking of the Sam who is planning for the long term, and plans on buying some high essence, low cost cyber/bio at chargen.
Absurdity aside, is there a priority or BP cost that balances? How about for the ability to buy back essence with karma?
Squarely back on topic...
I would like to see a tactical computer closer to 2nd editions version. That cost huge wad of cash and essence and needed some other 'ware to reach peak performance, but then it was worthwile. The current version is quite sucky in comparison. Takes more accessories to get any benefit, and the benefits aren't worth it. At least not to me or anyone I game with.
Used to see a few TC in 2nd ed., haven't seen a single one in 3rd ed..
How about some arm or leg cyberdecks or remote control rigs? Ones made specifically for the appendage, instead of the essence invasive cranial types. Things that 'runners are making for themselves. (The demand would be there, as much as the psuedo demand for the cranial type.)
I would like to see a tactical computer closer to 2nd editions version. That cost huge wad of cash and essence and needed some other 'ware to reach peak performance, but then it was worthwile. The current version is quite sucky in comparison. Takes more accessories to get any benefit, and the benefits aren't worth it. At least not to me or anyone I game with.
Used to see a few TC in 2nd ed., haven't seen a single one in 3rd ed..
How about some arm or leg cyberdecks or remote control rigs? Ones made specifically for the appendage, instead of the essence invasive cranial types. Things that 'runners are making for themselves. (The demand would be there, as much as the psuedo demand for the cranial type.)
no, mages can immediately gain the skills to perform magic with, and will probably spend only 18 points to do so, max; and the benefit they gain is considerable. a sam must spend 30 points to gain an immediate benefit, and the benefit will be only slight.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| no, mages can immediately gain the skills to perform magic with, and will probably spend only 18 points to do so, max; and the benefit they gain is considerable. a sam must spend 30 points to gain an immediate benefit, and the benefit will be only slight. |
Did the Sam spend those 18 max points for skills he can't use? Then they are not equal.
no, the sam spent 30 points for the resources to use his no-essence-limit ability. then, he spent a bunch of skill points on SMG, cyberimplant combat, stealth, athletics, etcetera, because he generally needs a wider variety of skills to effectively do his job. then, he went and spend a bunch of points on attributes, because a sam needs more high attributes than most other character types; whereas most other types can generally let either their physical or mental attributes slide a bit, a sam needs everything except Cha to be above average. then, all of the sudden, the sam looked at his sheet and realized he's about 30 points over budget, and he's still not really any more effective than the street sam who didn't pay those 30 extra points for the essence ability.
Try taking advantage of the concept to build a starting character and you can see some immediate benefits not available to the other Sam or the mage. Otherwise your replies sound like you just like to argue. (Had several more inflammatory phrases I had to refrain from using.)
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| How about some arm or leg cyberdecks or remote control rigs? Ones made specifically for the appendage, instead of the essence invasive cranial types. Things that 'runners are making for themselves. (The demand would be there, as much as the psuedo demand for the cranial type.) |
These are already available, but you have to hunt around for the rules for them. Matrix has a note on Cyberlimb cyberdecks, and Rigger 3 has some similar footnotes, along with some notes in Man and Machine.
me? like to argue? you wound me, sirrah. i don't like to argue--i like to win arguments.
the only real way to take advantage of such an ability would be to almost completely forgo skills and attributes. you'd end up, honestly, looking something like an adept; except that where an adept can concentrate all his abilities and skills in the same area to attain substantial advantages in one particular area, cyberware tends to have much lower limits. sams are generalists by necessity; there are only so many higher-level incarnations of a given piece of cyberware (smartlink to smartlink-2 to to smartlink-2 + rangefinder; muscle replacement/aug/toner 1-4; wired reflexes 1-3; etcetera). once you've maxed out a given type of cyberware, you have to move on to the next. the thing is, most cyberware is useful in disparate areas. smartlink doesn't help with cyberspurs doesn't help with knowsoft links doesn't help with hydraulic jacks (same for adept powers, mostly, but with adept powers, you can take many powers up to six levels). that means you need a wide array of skills and high attributes to take advantage of all that cyber--it's useless, on its own. and skills and high attributes come from character build points; your sam has used a huge chunk of his character build points on the essence ability and the cyberware.
the only real way to take advantage of such an ability would be to almost completely forgo skills and attributes. you'd end up, honestly, looking something like an adept; except that where an adept can concentrate all his abilities and skills in the same area to attain substantial advantages in one particular area, cyberware tends to have much lower limits. sams are generalists by necessity; there are only so many higher-level incarnations of a given piece of cyberware (smartlink to smartlink-2 to to smartlink-2 + rangefinder; muscle replacement/aug/toner 1-4; wired reflexes 1-3; etcetera). once you've maxed out a given type of cyberware, you have to move on to the next. the thing is, most cyberware is useful in disparate areas. smartlink doesn't help with cyberspurs doesn't help with knowsoft links doesn't help with hydraulic jacks (same for adept powers, mostly, but with adept powers, you can take many powers up to six levels). that means you need a wide array of skills and high attributes to take advantage of all that cyber--it's useless, on its own. and skills and high attributes come from character build points; your sam has used a huge chunk of his character build points on the essence ability and the cyberware.
I hate to tell you this, but you don't win that many arguements around here. You simply have the last word, or change the focus of the discussion, or people concede to your hard head being up your posterior.
So, you win!
So, you win!
First you say it is too powerful and unbalancing to ignore a limit on essence:
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| jesus god. okay, why would anyone ever get delta grade? what happens to cyberzombies, plot-wise? why would anyone ever play an adept again, ever, at all? or a mage, for that matter? or anything but a full-conversion cyborg with no organic matter left at all? how would bioware interact with a metal monstrosity like that? can you affect the living mind of something that's technically no longer living? that's a good idea, though. while we're at it, lets turn all the dragons into doughnuts. i like doughnuts better than dragons. i'm also crippled by my own insanity. |
Then you say it costs too much to charge a priority or BP for the privilege:
| QUOTE |
| i don't think that character type offers any real mechanical advantage. you're sinking the point cost of being a mage or adept into something with zero immediate benefit; in order to take advantage of the lack of an essence cap at chargen, you'd also have to spent 30 points on resources, which means you'll have next to nothing left for skills and especially attributes. attributes are what let sams keep up with adepts: sams have high attributes, adepts have mediocre attributes. taking away from that, even if it means no essence cap, hurts a sam more than it helps. |
So it would be too powerful, but it shouldn't cost anything?
haha, you're really getting into this. woo.
i admit, you've trapped me in my own logic. 30bp is too much, but 0bp is too little. if only there were something in between 0 and 30, i would be able to escape this fiendish snare of my own making! alas, no happy medium could possibly exist between getting stuff for free and paying too much.
(incidentally, how do you get away with saying i'm argumentative--not that i'm denying it--when you're the one arguing a point that you say you don't agree with?)
i admit, you've trapped me in my own logic. 30bp is too much, but 0bp is too little. if only there were something in between 0 and 30, i would be able to escape this fiendish snare of my own making! alas, no happy medium could possibly exist between getting stuff for free and paying too much.
(incidentally, how do you get away with saying i'm argumentative--not that i'm denying it--when you're the one arguing a point that you say you don't agree with?)
It's a non-issue to me, but if people are unhappy, or people are concerned about a situation, I would like to try to help come up with a solution. You noticed there was room to assign a cost, but declined to suggest one. That would involve contributing to the solution. If you let someone else suggest a cost, it leaves you free to tear into it, which seems to be how you get your jollies.
Well, one thing you as a GM can declare, provided you feel the balance isn't there is to declare all awakened to have the flaw that makes essence cost double, with no other benefit to them. That will limit the cyber they get and make it cost all the more dearly.
shooting down bad ideas makes room for good ones. look, you seem to be taking this a little more personally than you need to--certainly more personally than it's intended. if i see a dumb idea, i call it a dumb idea. removing the essence cap on street sams is a dumb idea. extending the essence cap in increments paid for with karma is a less-dumb idea. putting a dumb idea in front of me and expecting me not to charge is, perhaps, the dumbest idea of all.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i admit, you've trapped me in my own logic. 30bp is too much, but 0bp is too little. if only there were something in between 0 and 30, i would be able to escape this fiendish snare of my own making! alas, no happy medium could possibly exist between getting stuff for free and paying too much. |
Like, say, 15BP?
eh. i was trying to avoid suggesting that, actually. i think the balance is too weird to allow simply lopping off the essence cap at chargen. for instance, as i said above, it's too expensive for the benefit it provides during chargen; you'll likely end up with a sucky character. if the character survives, though, he'll grow to unbearable levels of power, because the only limit on his augmentations will be money--and since he's got no essence cap, he can go standard grade all the way. too weak at chargen, too powerful after chargen--it's just a bad idea. if you're going to do something to the essence cap, it's better to extend it a point at a time with karma. that way, improvement comes at a measured pace, instead of all at once.
I know, sorry. I just couldn't resist. I do like the idea of buying essence, think I may have mentioned something to that effect earlier. Or buying back essence to upgrade cyber grades. Or seomthing. DOn't remember. oh well!
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| eh. i was trying to avoid suggesting that, actually. i think the balance is too weird to allow simply lopping off the essence cap at chargen. for instance, as i said above, it's too expensive for the benefit it provides during chargen; you'll likely end up with a sucky character. if the character survives, though, he'll grow to unbearable levels of power, because the only limit on his augmentations will be money--and since he's got no essence cap, he can go standard grade all the way. too weak at chargen, too powerful after chargen--it's just a bad idea. if you're going to do something to the essence cap, it's better to extend it a point at a time with karma. that way, improvement comes at a measured pace, instead of all at once. |
That's as dumb an idea as letting people buy magic after chargen.
yes. because magic offers unlimited advancement for free.
| QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman) |
| Hey Tanka, if I wanted to hose low body mages would I really be an elitist awakened player? Or were you referring to yourself? By the way if you capped a mage's bio Index at essence + 1/2 body, I would hardly call it hosed. A mage with a body of 4 could still have 8 points worth of cyber/bioware and a running shot at being a burnout. |
I was being facetious. Calm down there.
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||
That's as dumb an idea as letting people buy magic after chargen. |
Tisoz, you're insane, and possibly masochistic. There aren't many other words for what you're doing right now, and saying right now.
"I don't care very much about the topic at hand, but I'm going to toss stupid ideas out there like clay pigeons, and then call anyone who shoots those stupid ideas with Logic Shotguns argumentative, all the while making it clear how I'm too cool to really care."
You come up with an absolutely insane idea to just completely remove Essence from the game, except as it relates to magically talented characters. Some people (like myself) come up with ideas for ways to do so gradually, with a karma cost (not coincidentally) directly on par with the karma cost an Adept, say, pays to purchase a new power point. Essence point = power point, that seems to make sense in the nightmare landscape of this argument, right?
You, instead, decide to just make them pay 1/4 of their starting character points to be able to -- again -- completely ignore Essence. Not to be able to gradually buy back their essence and increase it in the gradual, karma-based (and as such "game-length based") method that magically active characters increase their abilities; no! You want it all at once, for no imaginable reason.
And, again, anyone who suggest any idea even remotely different from your insane idea -- not that it's really your insane idea, you don't care, you're defending it for no reason at all! -- is just an argumentative internet prick. And you are -- in your head -- an internet martyr, trying to hold aloft shining torches of reason and benevolence to SR players everywhere, while suffering the slings and arrows of unreasonable forum-goers for your lucidity.
Yes, sir.
What you are doing right now, it is not called "sanity."
Buying back essence with karma - very good idea.
Making it so magic points don't come back with it - also a very good idea.
Anyone got good ideas on the cost of this? Off the cuff, I'd make it equal to initiation costs.
Incidentally - the cybercomm link (forget who mentioned this) IS still around, it's just called a transducer these days. M&M 19, according to the NSRCG.
Making it so magic points don't come back with it - also a very good idea.
Anyone got good ideas on the cost of this? Off the cuff, I'd make it equal to initiation costs.
Incidentally - the cybercomm link (forget who mentioned this) IS still around, it's just called a transducer these days. M&M 19, according to the NSRCG.
i would to 2 things atleast:
clean up the cyberlimbs so that they show up more often. right now they are more of a mess then needed and therefor avoided.
remove the mess that is routers, it just adds complexity and non of the other cyberware talks about what it can link to naturaly or not. think about it. suddenly after picking up m&m you have to get a router to connect your headware mem to your image link or something as the GM is anal about its clearly stated what stuff dont need a router to communicate. just allow all gear to communicate and get rid of this mess. this way with some head mem and a headphone you can do phone recordings
as for cleaning up the essence costs. im not so sure, while the bulkyness of gear goes down there is the thing about game balance. i could see the point of changeing consealability ratings on some gear but there is allready grades to help stuff more wares into your body.
the biggest problem realy is that all that helps the mundanes get more cyber allso help the magicans get more cyber. maybe if grade didnt affect magic loss (so that even when getting delta grade you lost the original essence when calculateing magic loss) to realy make them ponder the magic vs tech deal. it would need a more mystical explanation to the loss factor tho.
clean up the cyberlimbs so that they show up more often. right now they are more of a mess then needed and therefor avoided.
remove the mess that is routers, it just adds complexity and non of the other cyberware talks about what it can link to naturaly or not. think about it. suddenly after picking up m&m you have to get a router to connect your headware mem to your image link or something as the GM is anal about its clearly stated what stuff dont need a router to communicate. just allow all gear to communicate and get rid of this mess. this way with some head mem and a headphone you can do phone recordings
as for cleaning up the essence costs. im not so sure, while the bulkyness of gear goes down there is the thing about game balance. i could see the point of changeing consealability ratings on some gear but there is allready grades to help stuff more wares into your body.
the biggest problem realy is that all that helps the mundanes get more cyber allso help the magicans get more cyber. maybe if grade didnt affect magic loss (so that even when getting delta grade you lost the original essence when calculateing magic loss) to realy make them ponder the magic vs tech deal. it would need a more mystical explanation to the loss factor tho.
Well, as it is, grade isn't applied when determining how many boxes of damage an implant does when it's installed. So any significant (in essence) items of cyber/bioware, particularly if they're neural-related, will force a check for magic loss regardless of how high the grade is or how good the surgery. That's in addition to any magic you may lose as a result of the essence/bio-index loss for the implant.
My wish list:
1) Construction rules for ware. (Cyber/ Bio/ Nano/ Drugs, etc.)
2) (I know it's not part of this thread but still it needs to be done.) Adept Power Creation Rules.
3) Edges that positively effect essence.
I.E. Adaptive Nuerology: Cost: (4pts, 6pts for Awakened Characters)
This Edge is the opposite of Sensitive System, and reflects a person who's nervous system and essence are more adaptable to systemic changes. It reduces the Essence or Bio-Index costs of any implant by 10%, before any other modifications (such as grade of gear or surgery) is applied.
4) The ability (or mechanics that cover the recovery of) to recover Essence.
Either an initiation type process for mundanes (kind of a reverse cybermancy) that involves mages and is expensive and costs Karma, and/or rules for how Essence is recovered naturally. (Which IMHO should be able to happen as the human body/physiology is very adaptable in the long term but sould take a long time.)
Well, that's it for me.
1) Construction rules for ware. (Cyber/ Bio/ Nano/ Drugs, etc.)
2) (I know it's not part of this thread but still it needs to be done.) Adept Power Creation Rules.
3) Edges that positively effect essence.
I.E. Adaptive Nuerology: Cost: (4pts, 6pts for Awakened Characters)
This Edge is the opposite of Sensitive System, and reflects a person who's nervous system and essence are more adaptable to systemic changes. It reduces the Essence or Bio-Index costs of any implant by 10%, before any other modifications (such as grade of gear or surgery) is applied.
4) The ability (or mechanics that cover the recovery of) to recover Essence.
Either an initiation type process for mundanes (kind of a reverse cybermancy) that involves mages and is expensive and costs Karma, and/or rules for how Essence is recovered naturally. (Which IMHO should be able to happen as the human body/physiology is very adaptable in the long term but sould take a long time.)
Well, that's it for me.
| QUOTE (SpeedFreak) |
| My wish list: 1) Construction rules for ware. (Cyber/ Bio/ Nano/ Drugs, etc.) 2) (I know it's not part of this thread but still it needs to be done.) Adept Power Creation Rules. |
And how would you propose those? There's no real ruleset that the developers work around for either Adept powers or new 'ware.
| QUOTE (SpeedFreak) |
| 3) Edges that positively effect essence. I.E. Adaptive Nuerology: Cost: (4pts, 6pts for Awakened Characters) This Edge is the opposite of Sensitive System, and reflects a person who's nervous system and essence are more adaptable to systemic changes. It reduces the Essence or Bio-Index costs of any implant by 10%, before any other modifications (such as grade of gear or surgery) is applied. |
Icky, no. It just doesn't feel right to have that kind of Edge.
| QUOTE (SpeedFreak) |
| 4) The ability (or mechanics that cover the recovery of) to recover Essence. Either an initiation type process for mundanes (kind of a reverse cybermancy) that involves mages and is expensive and costs Karma, and/or rules for how Essence is recovered naturally. (Which IMHO should be able to happen as the human body/physiology is very adaptable in the long term but sould take a long time.) |
That I can agree with.
1 i'm not sure about. rules for constructing existing types of cyberware would be cool, but i'd be wary about including rules for inventing new types.
2, eh. i don't think it'd be possible to create a ruleset for this that's both balanced and widely useful.
3 is cool.
4 i don't think is necessary. if they are included, i'd say it should only be possible to recover essence that isn't being taken up by currently-implanted cyberware. also, recovered essence should not bring back lost magic.
2, eh. i don't think it'd be possible to create a ruleset for this that's both balanced and widely useful.
3 is cool.
4 i don't think is necessary. if they are included, i'd say it should only be possible to recover essence that isn't being taken up by currently-implanted cyberware. also, recovered essence should not bring back lost magic.
Weren't there Essence recovery rules in one of the sourcebooks, like Shadowtech or Cybertechnology? If I remember correctly, it was painfully slow (something like 0.01 essence a month).
I see no problems with an Adaptive Neurology edge (as long as it's not above 25% bonus). It would be cheesy, but frankly, cyberware should affect different people in different ways. Or maybe an edge that reduced recovery times from cybersurgery (instead of Quick Healer or whatever, something specifically for cyberware integration).
I see no problems with an Adaptive Neurology edge (as long as it's not above 25% bonus). It would be cheesy, but frankly, cyberware should affect different people in different ways. Or maybe an edge that reduced recovery times from cybersurgery (instead of Quick Healer or whatever, something specifically for cyberware integration).
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Weren't there Essence recovery rules in one of the sourcebooks, like Shadowtech or Cybertechnology? If I remember correctly, it was painfully slow (something like 0.01 essence a month). |
No such rule ever existed. It's been a thorn in the side of SR ever since the beginning.
But why not on the construction rules, these things are the only things in the game that we (as players and GMs) do not have a solid rules set for creating, we have to "make stuff up". I can construct anything from spirits to spells to guns to decks to vehicles, but not adept powers or ware. (or melee weapons either now that I think about it.) This is wonky. I like the ability to customize things, and the more the better.
adept powers and cyberware are too individualized for any non-insane ruleset to cover designing new ones. all vehicles, spirits, spells, decks, and guns have large sets of definable statistics, and the ranges for those statistics are fairly limited in scope; it's easy to create new stuff that fits in well with the rest of their type. adept powers and cyberware have only one common, definable statistic each--point cost, for adept powers, and essence cost for cyberware. beyond that, just about anything goes; the field is wide open, in terms of bonuses in relation to cost. it'd be very hard--if not impossible--to lay down a set of rules that doesn't make insanely cheap, overpowered 'ware or powers commonplace.
Why do you want to recover Essence again?
Making a lot of tests against vampires?
Making a lot of tests against vampires?
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