Maybe I'm just reading too much into a few recent threads, but it seems to me like there are a lot of game police around here, ready to attack if you try to introduce something that doesn't fit their view of what Shadowrun Should Be.
I may not want unkillable devil rats in my game, but I'm amused at how many people have to reply to a thread to say they think they're rubbish. As if your opinion of what that person's game is like has any actual bearing. All that matters is if the players and GM are having fun.
I personally find canon SR's treatment of angels as very poorly done. Yes, you avoid the whole problem inherent in bringing religion into a game, but there are so many facets of a gaming world that can be explored when religion is introduced.
Yes, an angel is just the way a spirit manifests when called by a highly religious conjuror. But try telling that the Pope John 86th, Shaman of Christ. You'll find your game overrun by religion in a heartbeat.
Is it just me, or have few people around here heard the phrase "live and let live"?
Full Version: Game Police
We're opinionated peoples. We voice said opinions.
Just because it's good for one person doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.
Also; if we didn't voice our opinions, the rule debates that go on here would end and the forum would just wither away.
When you join a place like this, you expect others to post their opinions. Especially on any houserules or homebrewed items you post.
Just because it's good for one person doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.
Also; if we didn't voice our opinions, the rule debates that go on here would end and the forum would just wither away.
When you join a place like this, you expect others to post their opinions. Especially on any houserules or homebrewed items you post.
Don't get me wrong, I'm well versed in the ways of opinionated forums and how every Tom, Dick, and Jane seems to think that something being an opinion gives it the right to be rude. I'm just musing on how often it seems to happen around here.
Note: This is not a personal attack on anyone. I would have to go hunting to find any screen names to tie rude comments to.
However, I would like to submit that if you (the general you, not tanka specifically) feel this is a personal attack, perhaps its because you know your responses to be ruder than they should be?
Note: This is not a personal attack on anyone. I would have to go hunting to find any screen names to tie rude comments to.
However, I would like to submit that if you (the general you, not tanka specifically) feel this is a personal attack, perhaps its because you know your responses to be ruder than they should be?
YOU'RE WRONG!
JK
I know what you mean. The thing is, DS is basically a true democracy, wether or not you have anything to say, you can say it. That's part of the fun. And yes, there's people that just want to rant. It's gonna happen. Not defending it, honest. I think there should be things that you can't kill, I think that religion is so huge in RL, it would have to effect life in SR. The developers don't want to touch it, and for good reason. And there are people that prefer it all "canon".
Good with the bad omae, it's all just life.
have fun!
JK
I know what you mean. The thing is, DS is basically a true democracy, wether or not you have anything to say, you can say it. That's part of the fun. And yes, there's people that just want to rant. It's gonna happen. Not defending it, honest. I think there should be things that you can't kill, I think that religion is so huge in RL, it would have to effect life in SR. The developers don't want to touch it, and for good reason. And there are people that prefer it all "canon".
Good with the bad omae, it's all just life.
have fun!
Of course I'm having fun. I woulnd't have made the post if it wasn't intended to enhance my amusement somehow. 
Actually, to be game police, there'd have to be some official or legal backing by Wizkids, Fanpro, or a Microsoft lawyer who can argue how the objectionable content is defaming their rights to theoretically produce a Shadowrun based PC game.
This is more the game lynch mob.
This is more the game lynch mob.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Actually, to be game police, there'd have to be some official or legal backing by Wizkids, Fanpro, or a Microsoft lawyer who can argue how the objectionable content is defaming their rights to theoretically produce a Shadowrun based PC game. This is more the game lynch mob. |
I've been looking for a new sig for a while... Looks like you're it!
It isn't even that. That'd involve us actually doing something to the people involved. This is the game crotchety old men on the bench outside the store.
In the end, to actually have a discussion there has to be either a pure factual discussion ("How does X word" "Y" "Where is that" "Page Z"; you can see how this would make for short and dull threads) or opinions have to get into the mix. The idea to not say anything at all if you don't have something nice to say is perhaps the most venomous of all. Someone comes up with a bad idea (in our opinions), we call them on it. That doesn't mean we force them to stop using it.
~J
In the end, to actually have a discussion there has to be either a pure factual discussion ("How does X word" "Y" "Where is that" "Page Z"; you can see how this would make for short and dull threads) or opinions have to get into the mix. The idea to not say anything at all if you don't have something nice to say is perhaps the most venomous of all. Someone comes up with a bad idea (in our opinions), we call them on it. That doesn't mean we force them to stop using it.
~J
I'm close to the crotchety old men, but even I admit I'm wrong at times.
Non-Canon? Houserule? *gulp* *gasp* 
Heretic! Infidel!
Jihad!
Join the Warriors for Shadowrun Orthodoxy. Call 1800-SRJIHAD now! First 30 callers will get a complementary Dikoted Ares Viper Slivergun Ally Spirit that you can have sex with.
Heretic! Infidel!Jihad!
Join the Warriors for Shadowrun Orthodoxy. Call 1800-SRJIHAD now! First 30 callers will get a complementary Dikoted Ares Viper Slivergun Ally Spirit that you can have sex with.
So..... does that mean there won't be any lynchings?
Damn,got out of bed for nothin'
Damn,got out of bed for nothin'
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| This is more the game lynch mob. |
*Shows up with a Vorpal Pitchfork and a +3 Torch of Houseruler Slaying*
I'm often rude on this board. Most of it's got to do with the fact that I'm an asshole, but I like to think that just as much has to do with being a straight-forward as possible about correcting people's sometimes rather perverted views of the canon world or RL logic.
When someone says "In our games, we like to play it so that cute little white fluffy bunny wabbits always pack PACs and kill everything that moves, whether that's canon or not" I don't mind. Makes no sense, but the person saying it seems to realize that. And the opposite case, where someone claims it's canon that CLWFBWs always pack PACs and kill people, is also easily dealt with.
The problem are people who say things like "Don't you think it ruins game balance that CLWFBWs pack PACs and kill everything that moves?" Messages where you aren't sure if the author is suggesting that's canon or not, or even if he's suggesting that it makes sense. Those often get needlessly rude replies.
Overall, it would be a good idea to add more "In my/our game"s and "This is how we play it, and we happen to like it"s into such messages. That generally tones down the hostility level of the replies.
You mean CLWFBWs don't pack PACs?
I nominate toturi for the first lynching! I tried calling his SR Jihad hotline but it wasn't a real phone number! On the off chance he misstyped I also checked 1-800-SR-JYHAD. It wasn't active either.
BURN HIM!!!!!
BURN HIM!!!!!
We should beat him to death with solid BBBs!
I think that, when possible, quoting page numbers is a great way to reduce arguments and redundancy. Don't wait for someone to go "Where did you read that?" but tell them where, right off the bat.
Sure, there are times when the next post will be "Ah, but on p. xx of SomeOtherbook, it contradicts what you've said." -- but establishing a baseline of where the information is coming from is a good thing, especially with the number of rulebooks for SR and the number of special case rules that end up in other books.
I also think that the important thing is, early in a thread, remember what the original poster is asking -- if you're not answering that in some relatively direct way, it might be best to save your time.
[This is not directed at anyone in particular, and is not some sort of administration post.]
Sure, there are times when the next post will be "Ah, but on p. xx of SomeOtherbook, it contradicts what you've said." -- but establishing a baseline of where the information is coming from is a good thing, especially with the number of rulebooks for SR and the number of special case rules that end up in other books.
I also think that the important thing is, early in a thread, remember what the original poster is asking -- if you're not answering that in some relatively direct way, it might be best to save your time.
[This is not directed at anyone in particular, and is not some sort of administration post.]
Forgive them... for they know not what they do.
See? You do not have the true makings of a SR Jihadist, a true Jihadist would done more legwork before calling that number! Repent and sin no more! In the name of the 1st Ed, 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed BBBs, and all the Rules Expansions, Amen.
[In case anyone thought I was serious]
See? You do not have the true makings of a SR Jihadist, a true Jihadist would done more legwork before calling that number! Repent and sin no more! In the name of the 1st Ed, 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed BBBs, and all the Rules Expansions, Amen.
[In case anyone thought I was serious]
| QUOTE (Grinder) |
| We should beat him to death with solid BBBs! |
No, use the first few printings of SR3! The paper cuts he'll get from the pages flying around the room will make him regret his transgressions all the more!
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| You mean CLWFBWs don't pack PACs? |
They don't need them. Everyone knows they're fully capable of decapitating armored knights with their teeth.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| I think that, when possible, quoting page numbers is a great way to reduce arguments and redundancy. Don't wait for someone to go "Where did you read that?" but tell them where, right off the bat. |
What a novel idea.
| QUOTE |
| Is it just me, or have few people around here heard the phrase "live and let live"? |
What was the point of this thread again? Just to say, "Hey, I'm better than all of you because I don't feel the need to say I'm better than all of you"?
Hey cool,
Does this mean that everyone at Dumpshock gets to be POST certified???
pun intended, hahaha I kill me.
Does this mean that everyone at Dumpshock gets to be POST certified???
pun intended, hahaha I kill me.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Non-Canon? Houserule? *gulp* *gasp* Heretic! Infidel! Jihad! Join the Warriors for Shadowrun Orthodoxy. Call 1800-SRJIHAD now! First 30 callers will get a complementary Dikoted Ares Viper Slivergun Ally Spirit that you can have sex with. |
Hey, I tried the number but no one picked up. Do I still get the free Dikoted Ares Viper Slivergun Ally Spirit that I can have sex with?
I would say we are more like the "SR witch hunters". Besides I don't know what you expect from a bunch of semi-intelligent, very saucy SR fanatics. Each and every one of us, including myself has a very specific view of what SR is to us and how it should be protrayed. Of course we will never pass up the chance to impress upon the world that our vision is the correct vision and laugh at your silly attempts at "fixing" and "adding" and other such nonsense.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
What was the point of this thread again? Just to say, "Hey, I'm better than all of you because I don't feel the need to say I'm better than all of you"? |
Give that man a cigar, he got it in one!
What? Everyone else here gets to be superior but not me? That's prejudice!
Welcome to the club.
Some of the posters here may occasionally be a bit rude when discussing a new idea, but there is also a lot of helpful advice. If you post a new idea here, you are soliciting people's opinions. And you will get them. People will correct you if you have the rules wrong, or misunderstand part of the general setting of the game. Your house rule will be nitpicked for game balance. If what you want isn't feasible, then more workable alternatives will be suggested. I have seen many newbies posting to either ask a question about a rule, or for help tweaking a character, and most of the replies to them have been helpful ones.
But on the flip side... some posters don't seem to get that if they ask for feedback, it won't necessarily be all positive. I have seen people post something, have the other posters point out the rule inconsistencies and flawed logic, then respond with whining and insults to the other posters. Why? Because they didn't want feedback. They wanted everyone to say 'Ooh, what a super-cool idea!", and they got upset when that didn't happen.
But on the flip side... some posters don't seem to get that if they ask for feedback, it won't necessarily be all positive. I have seen people post something, have the other posters point out the rule inconsistencies and flawed logic, then respond with whining and insults to the other posters. Why? Because they didn't want feedback. They wanted everyone to say 'Ooh, what a super-cool idea!", and they got upset when that didn't happen.
Very true.
You know, if people post ideas on this board, it's for one of two purposes. Either A) they're trying to show off how smart they are, in which case they're wasting my time, since I really don't care how smart some guy I've never met in person and never will meet in person is, or B) they're trying to distribute an idea to the public, for the public to use and/or abuse as they see fit.
Since A is egomaniacal and lame, I'll assume for each post that B is the case, in which case it's my right to tell the other person what I think of their idea. If they didn't want feedback, they shouldn't have throw it into the limelight.
JaronK
Since A is egomaniacal and lame, I'll assume for each post that B is the case, in which case it's my right to tell the other person what I think of their idea. If they didn't want feedback, they shouldn't have throw it into the limelight.
JaronK
| QUOTE (JaronK) |
| [...]If they didn't want feedback, they shouldn't have throw it into the limelight.[...] |
Bingo.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Maybe I'm just reading too much into a few recent threads, but it seems to me like there are a lot of game police around here, ready to attack if you try to introduce something that doesn't fit their view of what Shadowrun Should Be. |
I said something like that once and within moments I received this message: "Welcome to Dumpshock!"
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| All that matters is if the players and GM are having fun. |
...and if DSF approves of their game.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Is it just me, or have few people around here heard the phrase "live and let live"? |
Huh?
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) | ||
Huh? |
Ah. Then it must just be me.
I've heard that, but you mixed up the last word. It should be "die".
~J
~J
"Shaken, not stirred."
It also seems to happen a lot to the new guys to the board. They haven't bothered to check to see if their idea is original. Like by doing a search. It also comes across as, "You bickering idiots. I have all the answers."
Or they don't understand yet that their idea is going to be held to a canonical standard, not that the idea could be fun to use in a game that doesn't care about canon. They need to learn the phrase, "In my game." However, even using this phrase will not keep some from pointing out how far the idea is from fitting in with their idea of how SR is.
IMO there are several people here who try to establish their credentials in the hope that when Wizkids or Fanpro form a game police, they will be invited to join.
Or they don't understand yet that their idea is going to be held to a canonical standard, not that the idea could be fun to use in a game that doesn't care about canon. They need to learn the phrase, "In my game." However, even using this phrase will not keep some from pointing out how far the idea is from fitting in with their idea of how SR is.
IMO there are several people here who try to establish their credentials in the hope that when Wizkids or Fanpro form a game police, they will be invited to join.
Heh, this forum is what made me realize that my rules-fu is weak.
| QUOTE |
| Overall, it would be a good idea to add more "In my/our game"s and "This is how we play it, and we happen to like it"s into such messages. That generally tones down the hostility level of the replies. |
That's pretty much how I started all my posts/topics (not most of the replies though) and got quite lynched/slandered for it... though I don't really mind it, it tells me people here aren't perfect, I'm wondering what the reactions would be if I hadn't. or did my use of the term "Board" as meaning "In our game" get misunderstood somewhere along the line?
As I've said befor, I am wierd, eccentric, strange, unusual, and a newbie, so let it be known if anything I write on this board seems offensive, or raises confusion, please ask for clarification, and I'll let it be known wether I was attempting to insult, or just enlighten.
| QUOTE |
| You mean CLWFBWs don't pack PACs? They don't need them. Everyone knows they're fully capable of decapitating armored knights with their teeth. |
and somebody here thought my Rats were a bad idea, please don't tell me these things are Canon based. jk
| QUOTE |
| Is it just me, or have few people around here heard the phrase "live and let live"? What was the point of this thread again? Just to say, "Hey, I'm better than all of you because I don't feel the need to say I'm better than all of you"? |
Nah, the way I see it it's a place where we can just Vent at each other pell mell with whatever frustrations are on our minds without anyone taking offense.
| QUOTE |
| Welcome to the club. |
I've met the club, we've been introduced a number of times, it's got lotsa sharp points on it, and appears to be made out of titanium, I like the club, <thwack> thank you mistress may I have another... <thwack> thank you misstress may I have another... etceteray adnauseum
| QUOTE |
| If what you want isn't feasible, then more workable alternatives will be suggested. |
or not
| QUOTE |
| However, even using this phrase will not keep some from pointing out how far the idea is from fitting in with their idea of how SR is. |
I'm starting to wonder if that's what the "report" button is for, don't think I'll ever use the bloody thing though
I have an interesting question I'd like feedback on. Is there any logical reason why anything found in Canon of SR or any other system, literature or theatrical fiction, historical reference, or modern technology shouldn't be added to a Shadowrun Game as long as a "Game Balancer" is also added???
No, it isn't. If you'd like to find examples of what the "report" button is for, go find some locked threads.
~J
~J
Just thought I'd share my opinion (on something other than how ridiculously overpowered adepts are nowadays). Essentially what you've got here is a large group of geeks - (anyone who doesn't use that moniker with pride does /not/ deserve to be here) - because lets face it, we're discussing an imaginary world and the rules of a game on the Internet...
Whilst we're all intelligent and (in some cases) reasonably eloquent we also all /know/ that we're right /all the time/ and that anyone who disagrees is lame. More than anything else, Geeks love a good argument and that's why we're all here. I haven't played any rpg in over 10 years but I still post here (and waste hours every day reading drivel from everyone else) and to the ShadowRN mailing list, and to lists and forums about other games. I think the only reason I buy the books is so I can argue about them!
As long as everyone's having fun and the attacks don't get too personal then it's all good.
Whilst we're all intelligent and (in some cases) reasonably eloquent we also all /know/ that we're right /all the time/ and that anyone who disagrees is lame. More than anything else, Geeks love a good argument and that's why we're all here. I haven't played any rpg in over 10 years but I still post here (and waste hours every day reading drivel from everyone else
) and to the ShadowRN mailing list, and to lists and forums about other games. I think the only reason I buy the books is so I can argue about them!As long as everyone's having fun and the attacks don't get too personal then it's all good.
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Feb 11 2005, 06:15 PM) |
| I may not want unkillable devil rats in my game, but I'm amused at how many people have to reply to a thread to say they think they're rubbish. As if your opinion of what that person's game is like has any actual bearing. All that matters is if the players and GM are having fun. *snip* Is it just me, or have few people around here heard the phrase "live and let live"? |
One, if you don't want people's reactions to your ideas, don't put them up for C&C.
Second, when a GM includes hackle raising descriptions for (as they're initially presented) arbitrary and unfair situations, which include lines like-
| QUOTE |
I have turned many a player into Paste with this one and do love the look on thier faces when I explain how to disarm the trap and open the exit door. |
- positive reactions are rare, because it seems a lot of us have played in games where GMs pulled stunts like this, and while the GM seemed to have a great time seeing how he could screw with the PCs, it was a pretty miserable experince for all the players.
That's also why the uber-rats got such a poor reception. A statless, damage immune, magic reflecting critter. It's hard to imagine them having a reason for existing, except for the GM to amuse himself at the PCs' expense? There are statless NPCs out there, but the PCs should rarely, if ever, encounter them. If a GM has Lofwyr just hanging out, and if the PCs annoy them he backhands them through the bar, and this happens on a semi-regular basis, I'd criticize them just the same as if they did something similar with the uber-rats.
Despite the slower pace of Forum games and the difficulty in getting the players to keep a regular posting schedule, the reason of GMs feeling the need to be unfair and arbitary is the key reason why I like playing in Forum pbp games. It will be as close to a bad rep as someone can get in an anonymous medium such as the internet. If a GM was feeling unfair and arbitary and he acts on it, he had best retire that account. No one will be wanting to play in a game he runs or run a game he is in.
And on slightly off topic note: I would note that is stunts like Trap-o-death and Uber-rats that I have been saying that because the GM is empowered to act as he see fit in his game, there is nothing that a player can do (much) to change the tone of the game if the GM is an asshole apart from walking out of the game. There is no real metagame balance so to speak.
And on slightly off topic note: I would note that is stunts like Trap-o-death and Uber-rats that I have been saying that because the GM is empowered to act as he see fit in his game, there is nothing that a player can do (much) to change the tone of the game if the GM is an asshole apart from walking out of the game. There is no real metagame balance so to speak.
| QUOTE |
| One, if you don't want people's reactions to your ideas, don't put them up for C&C. |
True. Opinions and criticism are great, and even necessary to help games mature. But the rudeness is unnecessary. I realize that on every board there will be people who think that they are so right they don't need to use any decorum. I just like to call them on it.
| QUOTE (Xirces) |
| Whilst we're all intelligent and (in some cases) reasonably eloquent we also all /know/ that we're right /all the time/ and that anyone who disagrees is lame. More than anything else, Geeks love a good argument and that's why we're all here. I haven't played any rpg in over 10 years but I still post here (and waste hours every day reading drivel from everyone else ) and to the ShadowRN mailing list, and to lists and forums about other games. I think the only reason I buy the books is so I can argue about them! |
I would like to augment this and note that a recent poll on this forum shows that the majority of people who post here GM exclusively (which was quite surprising). So not only are you dealing with geeks who know how to Google (often a substitute for intelligent discourse), you are dealing with GMs who have honed their encyclopedic knowledge on each other, folks who are the de facto authorities of the game among their gaming group. It's hard to act with humility when you are used to a position of authority.
Any of you ever visit Rotten Tomatoes? This forum could use their system of "fresh" and "splat" voting. Implementing this would do wonders for everyone's self esteem. Muwahaha. 
You've got My vote on that idea
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) |
| Any of you ever visit Rotten Tomatoes? This forum could use their system of "fresh" and "splat" voting. Implementing this would do wonders for everyone's self esteem. Muwahaha. |
That sounds suspiciously like a house rule!
Hm.
I've got to say, from what I've seen, most of the familiar faces on the forums are the most polite. Not to mention the most helpful, eloquent, and able to post using accepted English grammar and form.
But that's just my experience.
I've got to say, from what I've seen, most of the familiar faces on the forums are the most polite. Not to mention the most helpful, eloquent, and able to post using accepted English grammar and form.
But that's just my experience.
| QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate) |
| Hm. I've got to say, from what I've seen, most of the familiar faces on the forums are the most polite. Not to mention the most helpful, eloquent, and able to post using accepted English grammar and form. But that's just my experience. |
I r uber l33t /w mY dIkoTeD kAtAnA I pwn joo /w !8 bOd ToLLzer nInJa you newbie LOLLOLOL!!!
I am also a rude asshole who rips ideas and when rude assholes rip my ideas apart it gives me such pleasure I don't know how I would live without it.
Well, mean people do suck. But the world in general and this board in particular would be boring without some "in your face" responses. I keep thinking back to the six-figure line developer wannabe who shall remain nameless. I totally disagreed with him, and his post was inflamatory (as were 90% of the responses), but he had a right to say it and I think he was on the receiving end of a lot of rudeness that he only partly deserved.
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