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Luca
1) From "neuromancer" I remembered Casey being in the Matrix and watching Molly's adventures in the real world through a kind of "window" in his visual.
How can this be possible in Shadowrun?
What equipment/utility/deck hardware do you use to make your decker follow the adventures of his chummers?
Do you use any alternative method? (radio, etc...)
i am not exactly a Shadowrun-virgin but I do not play the game so often (...3 games per year? due to my group addiction to d20...) so, things that might be obvious for others are not obvious for me. SO, please, state exactly what objects and techniques you use.

2)Another stuff. I've noticed the existence of the "Null operation": does it make boring the game of a decker? Furthermore if the decker is watching the chummers from the Matrix (and so often waiting), how often you do those tests?

3) A last question: can Matrix initiative be compared to normal initiative (for example in a real combat which is contemporary with a matrix one) (I think that it is possible).

If you have to answer only one question: PLEASE ANSWER TO THE FIRST!!!!
JaronK
1) What about a controll slave operation on a video camera?

2) I dunno, once a minute or so. Just enough to make the decker nervous about sticking around.

3) Yes. Realistically, no, but to make the game simple, yes.

JaronK
Luca
Well but in this way you cannot controll all the movements of your chummers. Maybe cameras are not anywhere in the corporate building they are runing through and, more important thing, you cannot comunicate with anyone.....
In SR p.214 under "Interrogations", in the example there is a generic reference to ""...he ehars over the radio that they're trapped..." but I cannot figure out how it works. How can you jack your mind to a radio while surfing the matrix? What rules and what equipment? Any distraction penalties?
DocMortand
Well think of it this way - The decker's mind is inside the matrix - so the only way to "see" what his fellow runners are doing are through interfaces that are connected to the area that the decker is in. I.E. if the group is in an area with a vid camera, the decker can "see" them through a control slave node op. Otherwise, the decker can only know what is going on through security tallies - doors opening in certain areas, etc. It is possible to wire into your programming a link to your meat bod so you can receive communications from your group...but I'm not sure the specifics, and you can't see them unless a cam's in the area.

A rigger has more options, however - those nifty little renraku spider drones make for great "Captain's Chair" vehicles as well as being able to fit through tight spaces...
tisoz
Check Matrix.61-63 for things that can be added to a cyberdeck for doing what you are asking.
Luca
I found in Matrix a couple of things but I have some doubts.
Page 61 AUdiospeakers.It is said that can be attached to a cyberterminal or in a remote location conected by a port interface. WHat does it menas? If I want to have a kinda earphones for the runners, an I use stuff like that? I mean a kind of radio attached to theerasof teh real-world-runners. THe price in page 63 (25-2500 neoyen is non comprehensible for me: why somuch change? How can I decide?)
Similar considerations for the cameras.
Edward
I have always assumed that a cyber deck (or RCD for that mater) can use one of its ports to connect to a radio or cell phone and the matrix icon will have a subtle corresponding device. This allows you to stay in contact with your teem from within the matrix, somewhere however it dos say you loose initiative for using something like that.

Edward
tisoz
You would need the speaker and microphone to hook into a transceiver or whatever type communication gear the team is using if they are not right by you. There is a transceiver that hooks right into the cyberdeck, and it is half the expense of a microtransceiver.
hobgoblin
one could allso allow the decker to access whatever cyberware he have available while jacked in. like say headware radio or phone. another trick is to set up a comlink connection to your team mates before they go in (conference call wink.gif ) and given that sr cells seems to be able to do video on the larger devices one should even be able to see what the mates are seeing.

what is done in neuromancer however is a bit diffrent. what you have there is a live simsense feed from molly that is picked up by a simsense player buildt into the deck. when casey flips the switch he basicly changes the input signal of his trodes. in sr3 this would mean a simrig and simlink either implanted or worn by the person(s) doing the physical bit, and a simlink buildt into the deck (see matrix, p 63). its a costly solution but would in theory allow the same stunt as in neuromancer.

as for null ops. you dont so much roll em every min or so as roll one when the decker comes out of a wait. like say he hangs around, waiting for the team to call in. the decker declares a null op but no test is rolled until he does something else. then look at the time waited or spent in the null op state and modify the test as given in the text: less then 10 sec, normal. between 1 min and 10 sec, +1 to seurity value, +2 for more then 1 min but less then 1 hour, between 12h and 1h, +4. then add +1 for every 12 hours after that. simple.
Jrayjoker
Null ops are also used while waiting for big downloads/uploads to complete. If you have an I/O of 300 Mp and the download is 1500 Mp, then I as a GM would make you roll 4 Null Ops (the first 300 Mp are covered by the read/write test IMO). I tweak my security sheaves to account for the fact that I make a lot of null op rolls, so that I don't outright kill the decker for camping out in a system while waiting for chummers to reach the door or for a file to complete.
hobgoblin
why roll 4 seperate tests? 1500mp/300=5 rounds. thats about 15 seconds of waiting where 3 of them goes away at the start of the test, then you are left with a 12 second wait. that would give a single null ops test with a +1 to the hosts security if i have read the null operation in sr3 correctly...
Cray74
QUOTE (Luca)
1) From "neuromancer" I remembered Casey being in the Matrix and watching Molly's adventures in the real world through a kind of "window" in his visual.
How can this be possible in Shadowrun?


Control some cameras. If the targets are on the street, hack into local traffic control and street-monitoring CCTV networks (Lonestar?) and watch them by hopping from camera to camera.

For bonus points, set up a utility to process images coming from the different cameras into a smooth overhead point of view. Call it a multiplier 2-3 utility at rating 2-3. Not big, not difficult, just a video processing utility.

Alternately, give the runners some camera gear (microcamcorder) and cellphones. Have the cellphone dial a connection to a Matrix site or personal telecomm. Have the decker open a window to the Matrix site and watc.

QUOTE
3) A last question: can Matrix initiative be compared to normal initiative (for example in a real combat which is contemporary with a matrix one) (I think that it is possible).  


When a decker is hacking a system in, say, the building that his meatbody chummers are breaking into, I usually say time is passing at the same rate.

QUOTE
Page 61 AUdiospeakers.It is said that can be attached to a cyberterminal or in a remote location conected by a port interface. WHat does it menas?


Audio Speakers are like your real life computer's speakers. They can be built into the computer, put somewhere else on your desk (but connected to the computer) or put somewhere else in the room (but connected to the computer). You wouldn't give them to some runners and let them go walking down the street.

You want a cellphone connection built into your deck, also covered in Matrix.

QUOTE
THe price in page 63 (25-2500 neoyen is non comprehensible for me: why somuch change? How can I decide?)


Have you ever looked at computer speaker or home stereo speaker options?

You can get cheap ass speakers for $2 (link won't work darnit) or you can spend $300 on computer speakers and let's not even talk about $2600 stereo speakers.

Similar price differences apply for cameras. You can get disposable electronic cameras now, or you can get $10,000 digital camcorders.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
why roll 4 seperate tests? 1500mp/300=5 rounds. thats about 15 seconds of waiting where 3 of them goes away at the start of the test, then you are left with a 12 second wait. that would give a single null ops test with a +1 to the hosts security if i have read the null operation in sr3 correctly...

No books on hand, and I have admittedly not run a lot of people through the matrix recently. You are, I am confident, more correct than I. However, in my game I am god and can do what I want. Nya nya boo boo. nyahnyah.gif

Anyway. I am at work, it is early, and I have not had enough coffee. So I will reread the books tonight to make sure I ain't screwin' anyone more than allowed by canon.
Nikoli
Also, I beleievt he point of the Null operation is to reduce the host camping as it represents the chance of the host detecting the decker as the just sit there. Though I could see a test of some kind to reduce the security sheaf without disconnecting.
Kagetenshi
The best way to do 1 is through a Snake-Eyes system.

~J
Nikoli
Or, micro-camera on the teammates, and a receiver plugged into a port on the deck. You get the Space Marine C&C that way, especially if you add in the bio-monitors, etc.
hobgoblin
if one follow the icon as prosess line of thinking then a prosess that just sits there will most likely be ignored as its not doing anything to harm the system (unless its eating up to much resources). only over time the system may build up a steady suspicion as the prosess never dies and never seems to produce any input or output.

allso, matrix overwatch is the hallmark of the team decker, the null op makes that idea simpler then say a decker that wants to get in and out fast. call a null op and hold until called by the team for some task or other. there is even rules in sr3 for calculateing the number of actions a decker can do in a combat round without him haveing to actualy roll up initiative.

point is that the rules as they stand try to make it simple for the gm to handle the sync between decker and the rest of the team. have the decker call a null op every time he is finished and then let the rest of the team go wild until they need the decker.
Jrayjoker
Jane in the box always had cameras on her team in the novels. she sat inside a cube where each wall was an image from her team.
cleggster

Also, Molly had the equivalent of a Sim-rig. If you hooked up the output to a satellite transmitter, you could share the simsense reaction on your deck. That way you can see, hear and feel everything she can. As long as you had a free and clear transmission.

GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Luca)
1) From "neuromancer" I remembered Casey being in the Matrix and watching Molly's adventures in the real world through a kind of "window" in his visual.
How can this be possible in Shadowrun?
What equipment/utility/deck hardware do you use to make your decker follow the adventures of his chummers?
Do you use any alternative method? (radio, etc...)
i am not exactly a Shadowrun-virgin but I do not play the game so often (...3 games per year? due to my group addiction to d20...) so, things that might be obvious for others are not obvious for me. SO, please, state exactly what objects and techniques you use.

Check out the snake-eyes module in Rigger 3:revised. You basically make someone your drone. The observer could use the CC mode and watch their actions, etc.

There is lots of stuff in R3R about Cyberdecks/Rigging, that's probably a good place to start.

Aside from that route, install a Radio/Telephone and a Camera-Eye and have the Decker monitor that feed from the Matrix.
Kagetenshi
Better yet, it allowed the person with the snake-eyes to "jump back" into another drone in the same network. Couldn't issue orders, but could observe through the sensors.

~J
GrinderTheTroll
I dont' recall Case directly controlling Molly in the story, but it's been a while since I've read the story. However, I do remeber him feeling her pain.

Snake-eyes + a Radio and you've got an "RC ninja" of sorts, LOL.
mfb
case didn't control molly, he just recieved her sensory input. the snake eyes cyberware is an almost direct translation of that part of Neuromancer.
hahnsoo
Snake Eyes cyberware is in Rigger 3, I think, just FYI.
Luca
Well Snake Eyes is useless for two reason:
1) IT IS FOR RIGGERS NOT FOR DECKERS. Even the rigger adaptor in R3R is useless because it cannto be used fro networksbut inlt forsecurity CCS.
2) Even if you want to use it is really, really Essence-expensive (but you can substitute sotmhing with non-implated simrig, simlink).
In Any case the FIRST REASON is teh most important.
hobgoblin
err, did nobody read my post or something?

given the extra equipment table in matrix you can equip your deck with a simlink. then have a person get simlink and simrig implanted and presto, you have a setup that about 100% the same as the one in neuromancer.

only problem may be flux, but that just depends on where the decker is compared to the person with the rig (may be a bit hard to do it across town unless you go high flux).

the snakeyes trick is a rigger variation on the theme, here the person becomes a spotter "drone" in the drone network. may be cheaper but is limited to a drone network (unless you can pull of a rigger emulation hooked to a cyberdeck, radio and some sort of utility and hit captains chair. i dont recall that being a option tho).
Luca
Well, it seems I was wrong.
Non snake Eyes but the only things one nees are a chummer with Simrig + simlink jacked to the cyberdeck.
The option of linking simlink receiver to a cyberdeck was already mentioned in the Core Rules p.289 under the label "simlink". That's fine and resolves a lot of my troubles.....
...I have only one big doubt: it is about the dealing with the meatworld penalities:
Initiative penalty of 1d6 in the Matrix while one is jacked but try to keep notice of the meatworld and +8 tn of meatworld test-skills while a RAS is on.
I was thinking that one can switch from On and Off the Simlink while he is jacked on the Matrix (like Casey did in neuromancer). If the Simlink is off no -1d6 penalties. If the simlink is on - 1d6 penalty to initiative.
Furthermore one should have the +8 Tn penalty for the simlink perception test while he is jacked.....but if one has such a monstrous penalty what's the advantage in having the simlink while he is jacked?
It is probably better to assume that when the simlink is on the Matrix is off and the +8 tn penalty too is off??
(while he should keep the +8tn penalty to perception tests of what is near the physical body of the decker, not the matrix or the simlink....after all the SImlink too as a RAS which affetcts no-simsense senses...)
WHat do you think about all of this stuff????
Shockwave_IIc
As many have mentioned the Snake-Eyes Package is the same thing as in Neuromancer, However your decker will need to modify his or her decker to take advantage of that.

It is However not really worth it. Something along the lines of Cyber Eyes + Ears and a Biomoniter with something that can transmite those signals is all your really needing. The Simsense Rig is a little OTT.
hobgoblin
in fact, given that casey could feel the pain that molly was feeling i would suspect that for a perfect recreation a simrig is needed (ie he didnt just have a readout in a corner, he shared her senses)...
hahnsoo
Not to mention that Molly was once a meatpuppet and probably had a simrig or something similar installed.
Shockwave_IIc
I have no doubt that "Snake-Eyes" is what Molly Had. Just that to get most of the "wanted" effects you don't need to spend 2.5 Essence and over a third of a Million Nuyen, unless you are wanting to feel the pain of a gunshot wound, and no rigger or decker would want to unless they are masocistic.
Necro Tech
You can also just use a cyber-eye camera hooked to a head ware radio or datajacked out to a physical radio. Much less essense cost. Or, get a shoulder cam (think Aliens Colonial marines) with a wirless transmitter or have the decker get a Remote control utility for his deck and have the team carry a spider drone attached to one of them. There is no penalty for any of this because it is coming in through the deck in a pop up window.
Luca
no: this solution, although beautiful, sucks.
Matrix p. 73 says EXPLICITELY that using a Remote Controll Utility make you not to you the Hacking Pool while your are using the drone. Furthermore it is NOT said anywhere that teh vision of teh drone appears like a windows. Mroe probably you must swicth betwwn Materxi vision and Drone vision.
I prefer the solution of simrig+simlink.
My question is what do you think about the division between marix andSimlink. Do you think taht one could witch between the two (as Casey did)?
Furthermore what do you think about the use, with simrig, of the -1d6 Init & +8TN of meatworld skills?
Read my previous posts for my opinion.
mfb
when using the Remote Control utility, the only rigging mode you can use is Captain's Chair. all you can do is issue orders to the drone, can't jump into it or directly control it at all.
Luca
Captain chair means also that you do not see what's going on with the drones: you cannot see directly through drones'cams. The drones use their active sensors telling you if they see something.
Am i wrong???
Furthermore rmains the problem that when you use the remote control utility use cannot do anything with hacking pool in the matrix.
Anotehr problem: IT IS NOT SAID ANYWHERE that there is a windows pop up (as Necro tech supposes.)
Am i wrong again?
mfb
actually, you are wrong on several points. R3 page 11 describes captain's chair mode as being an ASIST construct similar to the virtual dashboard, but with pop-up windows that thow the sensor inputs from all drones, as well as a top-down map showing the location of all drones.

as for hacking and control pools, the description in the remote control utility says that you can't use it while controlling the drone. you can, therefore, give the drone an order (during which action you can't use your hacking or control pools), then take other actions. during these other actions, you can use hacking pool and control pool (assuming you're hooked into both a cyberdeck and a VCR at the same time).
Necro Tech
Thank you MFB. The question was alternate ways to keep tabs on your team. Since a decker can't ever jump into a drone, he just watches through its feed from captains chair mode. Mounted on a team member, no commands are ever needed.

I have always veiwed the matrix as the artwork suggests, a virtual place. When you interact with the outside world, an interface pops up thats is thematically consistant with the host. When using drones, your icon might have a virtual drone following him around with a viewscreen mounted on it to convey info. A security camera the same way.
Luca
OK, thanks a lot for the clarifications: i am not such an expert of the sr rules and I am just trying to swim and survive through the sea of things which is the Sr system.
Why the SR rules do not explicitly say anything about all these systems of linking Matrix & Reality?
I hope something is in the MrJohnson book but I still do not have it (could anyone owning the book say anything about that sourcebook' suggestions?).
I think that these systems are the key to integrate the decker in the group and not making him simply the one who play alone.
summarizing this really interesting (at least for me) topic we found different methods to link matrix & Reality:

1) Control the cams of the building where runners are running through the Control Slave operation (well no penalty.....but one must remember that possibly there are no cams or they are not sited where one need them).

2) Radio transceiver (but speaking with radio can make you loose the 1d6 initiative)

3) Simsense linked with simrig to the deck(but I am not so sure about how it really works, does it means that one can switch the attention from matrix ti simsense?)

4) Drone (or cam) & Remote control utility (through this "drone method" can one use both active and passive sensors tests?)

Final question: in all these methods how work the -1d6 initiative penalty and +8 TN of real-world- skills?
Is around any other people more expert than me in SR rule who can answer me or suggest other alternative methods?
mfb
the SR books don't mix meat and matrix very often because, honestly, it wasn't something the original authors put much thought into.

unfortunately, there really aren't many ways to handle it any better than it currently works. it's my hope, however, that once the WMI stuff comes out, the kind of thing you're talking about will become easier.
Luca
Sorry for my ignorance: what is the wmi?
A found another probable (not sure!!) "bug" in the "drone method".
Matrix p.73 ("Remote Control" utility) says that you need that utility + a "rigger protocol emulation module" whose characteristics are not shown in Matrix.
What is that?
In Rigger 3 Revised, page 94 I found a cyberdeck accessory called "system-control rig emulator" (SCRE). Is this SCRE the solution? I think not because the description states explicitly that "...dos not work with.....remote-control networks" in other words: it dos not works with drones you command through remote control but only through the CCSS(close-circuit simsense system): In other, other words: this module cannot be used with the remote control utility.
conclusions: what kind of module the remote control utility requires???
Please answer also to my questions in my previous reply.
hobgoblin
wireless matrix interface, its hinted at in shadows of europe i think. kinda like umts today only useing matrix tech nyahnyah.gif

rigger protocol emulation module you find on page 98 of rigger3.

it would be interesting to see a system where you could kinda suspend your icon and move about in the meat. maybe a variation on the null ops. call it and your senses and movement ability is freed from the asist while your icon sticks around. that, a cellular interface (p.60 matrix) or radio interface (and hooking up the radio interface to the first accesspoint you can find inside the facility) and one is ready to go. maybe make it a addon to the normal asist and useing the normal null ops to initiate.

hmm, this could actualy work!
Necro Tech
You only have a +8 to tests and lose 1d6 initiative if you use your meatbody to interact with the outside. If you are using your persona to do it on-line, there is no penalty. If you are running DNI and using stuff hooked to your deck, there shouldn't be any penalty because your body can stay motionless and eyes closed to avoid over lap.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 17 2005, 04:09 AM)
it's my hope, however, that once the WMI stuff comes out, the kind of thing you're talking about will become easier.

Mine as well. Even something like the Astral Perceiving penalty would be workable, +2 to all Real World tasks.

But what will we call it? Trixin', Surfin', Uplink, Diving, Scannin'?

And now that I think about it, Trippin'
hobgoblin
hmm, this made me think about how cp2020 handled "decker" meat interaction. if you where after a simple security camera then you just fired up a program while haveing access to the net. higher prgram rateing, higher chance that you found the camera. maybe a bit to simple?
Luca
QUOTE (hobgoblin)

rigger protocol emulation module you find on page 98 of rigger3.

Well, thanks a lot for the indication.
However, from rigger 3 description this model seems like a kind of option for rigger'decks and not the kind of stuff mentioned in the matrix "remote control" utility....and I suspect one needs a rigger'deckeven if it has a cyberdeck wit the remote control utility.
At the end of the day, sometimes I fell a bit confused by all this Shadowrun "Pseudo-phanta-complicated-technology".
Fortune
It's an add-on for a Cyberdeck that emulates (or imitates the function of) some of the functions of a Rigger Control Deck.
mfb
no. in SR3, there's no deck component that fills that function. the RPEM on page 98 of R3 is a component for remote control decks, and it's used for infiltrating CCSS networks and performing MIJI attacks.

however. on page 61 of Matrix, it says that "any device may be adapted for a cyberterminal as long as the gamemaster approves and it can be somehow wired to a cyberterminal connection." the gamemaster that rules that RPEMs cannot be wired into decks is flat out retarded. another alternative is to get the cybernetic version of the RPEM.
Herald of Verjigorm
The decking to rigging item is on page 94, not 98. SCRE, but it seems to only apply to CCSS, not general rigging uses.
mfb
indeed. s'not what the Remote Control utility calls for.
Fortune
Hmmm, interesting. I don't normally deal with deckers, so have always been under the (apparently mistaken) impression that the RCEM was exactly what I listed above.
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