Full Version: We all agree the melee rules are broken
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Assuming Willpower and Intelligence of 3 each and +1d6 initiative, that means they'll have 13 and 5 combat pool, respectively, with average initiatives of 14.5 and 7.5 respectively. With both having Brawling 6 and no other TN mods, this means the first attack the vampire will be expecting six successes while the normal guy already is only expecting five and a half; moreover, if they tie the vamp does his damage rather than the guy. Second attack the guy can attack and wins ties, but now his combat pool is gone. Third attack, well… Now kick it up to 6 intelligence and willpower each. 16 combat pool and 8 combat pool, vamp takes two actions before he's rolling under 12 dice with 4 to spare while at that point the human is completely drained. Now let's kick the vampire back down to 3s while our hero sticks at 6s. 13 and 8 combat pool, Initiative averages of 14.5 and 8.5, and the vamp still eats his combat pool for lunch with a die remaining for dessert. Now let's try this again with the hero having gotten a 6 on Initiative and the vampire only having gotten a 1. With 11 init he's getting a second action, while the vampire comes out barely ahead at 12. He's still got less combat pool, and with his likely wound mods his last action is more harmful than helpful if he decides to attack. Your example shows a clear advantage for the vampire. ~J |
Actually, that is a very good example and makes me think it might not be as unbalanced as I first thought it was. However, having played a sam with a high level of init/reaction boosters, and a decent (4-6) combat skill, I angered me to no end that a guy with only 1 or 2 dice more than me but only 1 action a round basically kicks my a$$ around the room when I am "so much faster" than him. (And combat pool didn't really help.)
And so I ask you, why?
2 dice difference in skill should not be the be all and end all of an opposed test.
Or, why is the flash such a god™ in a hand to hand fight?
Becuase he moves fatser than his opponents can react. He reacts fatser, moves faster, and sees them in slo-mo and so avoids there attacks like childsplay.
Reaction is great and fine, but it represents the ability to respond to stimulus.
Responding to stimulus involves (in combat) movement and you can't get around that doing 3 things involves more movement than doing 1. (Even if it's something completely pedantic like shoving a spoon of Soy-Puffs™ into your food consumption orrifice.)
The Flash, in SR terms, would be using SR2 initiative and have Quickness of at least a hundred, giving him combat pool of 50 at a minimum.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
Which would let the sam learn high skills for less karma than the other guy. Unles it's all "artificial" quickness, which (for some odd reason) only helps when running or rolling the attribute. |
And your point is?
Its a one shot example not a 10 year study. The sam still moves faster when they meet on the "field of battle."
| QUOTE (SpeedFreak) |
| Actually, that is a very good example and makes me think it might not be as unbalanced as I first thought it was. However, having played a sam with a high level of init/reaction boosters, and a decent (4-6) combat skill, I angered me to no end that a guy with only 1 or 2 dice more than me but only 1 action a round basically kicks my a$$ around the room when I am "so much faster" than him. (And combat pool didn't really help.) And so I ask you, why? 2 dice difference in skill should not be the be all and end all of an opposed test. Or, why is the flash such a god™ in a hand to hand fight? Becuase he moves fatser than his opponents can react. He reacts fatser, moves faster, and sees them in slo-mo and so avoids there attacks like childsplay. Reaction is great and fine, but it represents the ability to respond to stimulus. Responding to stimulus involves (in combat) movement and you can't get around that doing 3 things involves more movement than doing 1. (Even if it's something completely pedantic like shoving a spoon of Soy-Puffs™ into your food consumption orrifice.) |
Even considering the abstract nature of Shadowrun, big fast skilled guy can lose very easily to better not-so-fast guy.. Equal skill opponents, the one who reacts faster will do really well -- more turns, and more that he's the attacker, where the 'ties go to the attacker' takes affect. And lets not forget that 2 dice the difference between being a 'professional' at something and being an expert at it. You're good... they're excellent.
If the other person is more skilled, then they very likely will do better even on defence against someone much faster. Why? Because the defender can time the person. Faster than greased lightning? Fine, better fighter doesn't bother trying to go faster, just uses the speed against the attacker. They start to attack, and they are a lot faster, but the person is already defending. The defender is more skilled -- they picked up on some twitch, something, and they react to the attack as the attacker reaches the point of no return.
In short, skill can be more important then speed. It doesn't matter if you move 3x faster, if the person is better, they can walk you into their hit. Seen it happen, it's not pretty. You see it in martial arts -- someone attacks and walks right into one of the two slowest kicks.. and wakes up on the floor.
DS has a damn good point.
From my experience, being a good swordfighter has everything to do with picking up small cues and determining your opponents rhythm. Even if he is faster than you, you see when and where it's coming before he even begins to launch the attack.
From my experience, being a good swordfighter has everything to do with picking up small cues and determining your opponents rhythm. Even if he is faster than you, you see when and where it's coming before he even begins to launch the attack.
What if they both have an equal skill and one is faster?
Then the faster one will go first, win ties in the first round, and possibly have more combat pool to boot.
~J
~J
indeed. the fast guy will act with equal economy of motion, compared to the slow guy, making it hard for the slow guy to 'read' the fast guy. equal skill is where speed starts to matter.
Except in Shadowrun. 
Where's that example of the phys ad getting his ass kicked by a bunch of girl scouts? Man, I love that one...
Where's that example of the phys ad getting his ass kicked by a bunch of girl scouts? Man, I love that one...
No, it's that way in Shadowrun as well. See my above examples of a vampire; if you want, I'll do some more for a Quickness 4 vs. Quickness 6 individual.
~J
~J
I skipped the vampire talk.
edit: was that about combat pool?
edit: was that about combat pool?
In a nutshell, it was a demonstration that a Quickness 20 Vampire had a more-than-decisive advantage over a Quickness 5 human, even if skill is identical and the Vampire has 3s in Willpower and Intelligence as compared to 6s for the human. An extreme example, but even a single point of initiative makes a significant difference when it comes to equally-skilled people facing off.
It was both about combat pool and about the fact that ties go to the attacker.
~J
It was both about combat pool and about the fact that ties go to the attacker.
~J
Gotcha. So, at some level, being faster does actually matter in SR melee combat.
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| ... the advantage the faster guy has is that ties to to the attacker. Thats plenty. |
I see this stated all the time, but in all my time playing and GMing Shadowrun I have rarely seen ties in melee combat. In my opinion it is not that great of an advantage.
What rational is used in the SR universe to explain the extra attacks/actions given by higher initiative scores? Ignore H2H combat for a moment, why (for example) can an augmented person (be it mechanically, biogenically or magically) shoot an additional two (or three, or four...) times than an un-augmented person? Or cast a spell more times, or take other simple/complex actions?
Without speeding up thier movements / mind, how is this possible? And isn't slowing the amount of time taken to perfom an action equivalent to speeding up that person?
How does running fit into all of this, can an augmented someone run in each of thier passes? Making them run 2/3/4.. times faster (and therefore further) than someone un augmented?
Is there a limit to the amount of bullets that could possibly spew out of a gun? Or if someone had a high enough initiative score could they empty a gun in 3 seconds, a gun that an lower initiative score person (ignore augmentation for a moment) could only squeeze a couple of shots out of? Is the higher initiative scorer moving thier trigger finger faster than the other?
Without speeding up thier movements / mind, how is this possible? And isn't slowing the amount of time taken to perfom an action equivalent to speeding up that person?
How does running fit into all of this, can an augmented someone run in each of thier passes? Making them run 2/3/4.. times faster (and therefore further) than someone un augmented?
Is there a limit to the amount of bullets that could possibly spew out of a gun? Or if someone had a high enough initiative score could they empty a gun in 3 seconds, a gun that an lower initiative score person (ignore augmentation for a moment) could only squeeze a couple of shots out of? Is the higher initiative scorer moving thier trigger finger faster than the other?
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| The usual caveat applies - constructive criticisms of idea only, please if you want to flame, take it somewhere else. |
My constructive comment is:
I leave the combat system alone (except to use SR2 initiative). I really don't have objections to the melee system one way or another. Maybe it's flawed and unrealistic, but not enough to bother me.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Except in Shadowrun. Where's that example of the phys ad getting his ass kicked by a bunch of girl scouts? Man, I love that one... |
Twas humerous, although it was actually a demonstration to show how anyone will get their arse handed to them in a melee against multiple opponents, no matter how high their combat skill in comparison to their opponents (rather than against high intiative). Although the example is a bit extreme (and the conclusion is negative towards the rule) I happen to agree with the fact that most people will lose a fight against multiple (skilled or unskilled, I dinnae care) opponents.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||
You lose points on originality since Indiana Jones thought of that first. |
| QUOTE (Movie Trivia) |
| The scene where he shoots the sword wielding bad guy wasn't the original. 3 months' shooting had resulted in Harrison Ford having a nasty case of dysentery, and the choreographed fight would have taken three and a half days to shoot. Harrison Ford really didn't want to stay on set that long, so suggested that it would be a good alternative if he just shot him. |
I always thought it a bit strange that people think that getting 2 actions a round is so fast that people can't compensate for it.
A human can get 2 actions around, thus people are aware that people can move that fast. So is it really that fast?
Also if think about it, does someone with a Initative of 6+D6 really go twice as fast for those 3 seconds if he was to roll a 5 or 6? I Think not more that his speed averaged out that way but due to structure of the Initative system it looked like he's moved twice as fast.
Now If you are moving at a speed of 3+ Actions around then you are moving Very fast. To the point where you might beat someone through speed. but that has been shown in the fact that you are more often the attacker.
A human can get 2 actions around, thus people are aware that people can move that fast. So is it really that fast?
Also if think about it, does someone with a Initative of 6+D6 really go twice as fast for those 3 seconds if he was to roll a 5 or 6? I Think not more that his speed averaged out that way but due to structure of the Initative system it looked like he's moved twice as fast.
Now If you are moving at a speed of 3+ Actions around then you are moving Very fast. To the point where you might beat someone through speed. but that has been shown in the fact that you are more often the attacker.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| Without speeding up thier movements / mind, how is this possible? |
There you go. More precisely, you're speeding up their reactions. Their physical motions are more or less the same, but they recover from them faster, transition into the next move faster, acquire new targets faster, etc.
| QUOTE |
| And isn't slowing the amount of time taken to perfom an action equivalent to speeding up that person? |
No.
| QUOTE |
| How does running fit into all of this, can an augmented someone run in each of thier passes? |
Yes.
| QUOTE |
| Making them run 2/3/4.. times faster (and therefore further) than someone un augmented? |
No. Their total movement is divided amongst each pass. Moreover, it's each pass period, not each pass they have. Three people all with Quickness 5 and a Running Multiplier of 3 will all run at the same rate even if they have initiative scores of 1, 10, and 10,000,000 respectively.
| QUOTE |
| Is the higher initiative scorer moving thier trigger finger faster than the other? |
Shadowrun does not take totally uncontrolled fire into account. It assumes that you'll be doing some aiming before you pull that trigger. So the answer is yes, the trigger finger is moving faster, but it's not because the maximum speed is faster.
~J
I was surfing on ebay the other day and came across a martial arts book for cyberpunk. It said it could be translated for shadowrun. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this and weather or not it was any good?
OK, I dug out my SR3 rule book and looked up the movement section.
Originally I was going to propose the following senario; (well, I still aim, but my focus has moved on...)
Two identical combatants. Both Human, with a quickness of 6 and a running modifier of x3. Movement is divded equally between passes.
Both combatants are engaged in H2H combat. Combatant A rolls really well and gets three phases this turn. Combatant B is having a 'mare and only gets 1.
Combatant A goes first, both roll and the outcome is negligable (for this example). A doesn't worry as he has another 2 attacks.
Combatant B combines a H2H attack on A with walking away 6 metres. This imposes a +1 TN, but in no way changes the availabilty of his complex action (pg108). Again, for the purpose of this example the result of the H2H roll is negligable.
B's turn ends there. 6 meters away.
:BIG EDIT: Doh! Everyone's total movement is divided among the total number of passes for that turn. So in his first and only phases B could only have walked 2 meters. He could walk another 2 in each of the other initiative passes after his. At what initiative does he do this? Anyway, it still means A loses out of 2 meters by not walking in his first phase...
A on his second pass can now only walk for a total of 4 meters this turn, and cannot catch up to B. (he wasted 2 meters of walking distance in his first action). And now cannot catch B by walking. What a waste of two potential H2H attacks...
:/
Second senario (and my main focus)
But, A can still catch B by running to him Strange though, he has to speed up to catch his opponent...)... Running causes me a problem though.
Well, running and athletics.
Both A and B have an equal athletics (running) skill of 6.
A and B (same people) are no longer fighting, but running against each other. A again rolls high and get's three phases, B (unlucky thing) agains rolls badly and only has the 1.
Both having the same quickness should be able to run 18 meters per turn, B 18 meters in 1 phases, A 6 meters per each of his phases. But the running skill skews this. In each of his three passes, A can make a running skill check (a complex action, which is in no way hindered by his movement). Each sucess increases effective quickness by 1 point for that phase. If B rolls well and gets 6 sucesses, he runs a total of 36 meters, while A, if he gets maximum sucesses in each of his three phases can run a total of (6+18)*3, or 72 meters. In the same time A has run 36. Meaning A, because of his better iniative has moved faster than B. Twice as fast.
Unless I've really mis understod the rules... (And this has been covered before!)
Originally I was going to propose the following senario; (well, I still aim, but my focus has moved on...)
Two identical combatants. Both Human, with a quickness of 6 and a running modifier of x3. Movement is divded equally between passes.
Both combatants are engaged in H2H combat. Combatant A rolls really well and gets three phases this turn. Combatant B is having a 'mare and only gets 1.
Combatant A goes first, both roll and the outcome is negligable (for this example). A doesn't worry as he has another 2 attacks.
Combatant B combines a H2H attack on A with walking away 6 metres. This imposes a +1 TN, but in no way changes the availabilty of his complex action (pg108). Again, for the purpose of this example the result of the H2H roll is negligable.
B's turn ends there. 6 meters away.
:BIG EDIT: Doh! Everyone's total movement is divided among the total number of passes for that turn. So in his first and only phases B could only have walked 2 meters. He could walk another 2 in each of the other initiative passes after his. At what initiative does he do this? Anyway, it still means A loses out of 2 meters by not walking in his first phase...
A on his second pass can now only walk for a total of 4 meters this turn, and cannot catch up to B. (he wasted 2 meters of walking distance in his first action). And now cannot catch B by walking. What a waste of two potential H2H attacks...
:/
Second senario (and my main focus)
But, A can still catch B by running to him Strange though, he has to speed up to catch his opponent...)... Running causes me a problem though.
Well, running and athletics.
Both A and B have an equal athletics (running) skill of 6.
A and B (same people) are no longer fighting, but running against each other. A again rolls high and get's three phases, B (unlucky thing) agains rolls badly and only has the 1.
Both having the same quickness should be able to run 18 meters per turn, B 18 meters in 1 phases, A 6 meters per each of his phases. But the running skill skews this. In each of his three passes, A can make a running skill check (a complex action, which is in no way hindered by his movement). Each sucess increases effective quickness by 1 point for that phase. If B rolls well and gets 6 sucesses, he runs a total of 36 meters, while A, if he gets maximum sucesses in each of his three phases can run a total of (6+18)*3, or 72 meters. In the same time A has run 36. Meaning A, because of his better iniative has moved faster than B. Twice as fast.
Unless I've really mis understod the rules... (And this has been covered before!)
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| OK, I dug out my SR3 rule book and looked up the movement section. Originally I was going to propose the following senario; (well, I still aim, but my focus has moved on...) Two identical combatants. Both Human, with a quickness of 6 and a running modifier of x3. Movement is divded equally between passes. Both combatants are engaged in H2H combat. Combatant A rolls really well and gets three phases this turn. Combatant B is having a 'mare and only gets 1. Combatant A goes first, both roll and the outcome is negligable (for this example). A doesn't worry as he has another 2 attacks. Combatant B combines a H2H attack on A with walking away 6 metres. This imposes a +1 TN, but in no way changes the availabilty of his complex action (pg108). Again, for the purpose of this example the result of the H2H roll is negligable. B's turn ends there. 6 meters away. A on his second pass can now only walk for a total of 4 meters this turn, and cannot catch up to B. (he wasted 2 meters of walking distance in his first action). And now cannot catch B by walking. What a waste of two potential H2H attacks... :/ |
You have misunderstood. Even though Person A only has one pass, he still moves two meters per pass.
~J
Caught that after I posted! 
But the running example still stands...
But the running example still stands...
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