Full Version: Smart Link 2
Is it just me or is the SL2 on the unbalanced side of the fence. I mean I always thought that the SL was good, but SL2 is nuts. There is no reason to ever get an SL1 anymore, since they have been introduced I have yet to see a PC choose 1 over 2. If you use the bypass armor option for called shots then an SL2 and glazer rounds equal stupid killing machine. I am all in favor of mundanes having some good gear, but in the hands of a gun bunny adept, this is just nuts!!
Well, there's the roleplaying factor.
So? It is good gear. It works by increasing the level of lethality in games on both sides. Nothing surprising there.
and the nonsensical yet in there for balance aspect of not stacking the benefits of a scope with a smart link.
With the addition of a rangefinder.
For the benefits I just think the $ cost is very low. And if SL2 is that cheap then SL1 seems like it would be way less.
The SL 2 has a street price more than double that of the SL and twice the Availibility.
The cost of the SL2 is negligigle all things considered. Especially since it's usually taken at creation.
That's the result of early Shadowrun gear book mentality. First SSC, then Field of fire... they kept adding gear that frequenlty made what came before obsolete.
Personnally, I'd increase the SL2 cost a little and more importantly I'd raise the essence cost by .1, blaming it on the extra processing power required.
Essence is a better balancing factor than money for anything under 30K or so.
Also, I might have more than 2 grades of SL.
From model I to model II, there is a world of difference and that leaves room for intermediate models. 4 Different models would justify a much bigger range of price and essence cost in terms of game balance.
That's the result of early Shadowrun gear book mentality. First SSC, then Field of fire... they kept adding gear that frequenlty made what came before obsolete.
Personnally, I'd increase the SL2 cost a little and more importantly I'd raise the essence cost by .1, blaming it on the extra processing power required.
Essence is a better balancing factor than money for anything under 30K or so.
Also, I might have more than 2 grades of SL.
From model I to model II, there is a world of difference and that leaves room for intermediate models. 4 Different models would justify a much bigger range of price and essence cost in terms of game balance.
| QUOTE (Charon @ Feb 17 2005, 08:15 PM) |
| The cost of the SL2 is negligigle all things considered. Especially since it's usually taken at creation. |
Yes, but getting a gun with an internal SL2 is not a small deal, since it will cost at least 350% of the price of the gun without it (assuming it isn't one of the few guns with integral SL2, which are generally pricey in and of themselves) before you apply SI.
Game balance is not an issue. Recognise that the true difference in SL 2 and SL is in the gun attachment not the implants themselves. Unless you rule that the SL 2 called shot function do not function with SL 2 guns and smart goggles, I do not see the reason for any increase.
| QUOTE |
| That's the result of early Shadowrun gear book mentality. First SSC, then Field of fire... they kept adding gear that frequenlty made what came before obsolete. |
Much the same way that CDs made tapes obsolete.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| Yes, but getting a gun with an internal SL2 is not a small deal, since it will cost at least 350% of the price of the gun without it (assuming it isn't one of the few guns with integral SL2, which are pricey in and of themselves) before you apply SI. |
Actually, the Ares Alpha isn't all that expensive really, considering that you get a GL and all.
I said they're "generally pricey."
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| Yes, but getting a gun with an internal SL2 is not a small deal, since it will cost at least 350% of the price of the gun without it (assuming it isn't one of the few guns with integral SL2, which are generally pricey in and of themselves) before you apply SI. |
Why? Last I checked p.32 of MM stated it was X150%. So a SL1 gun is 2 time the base cost and and a SL2 is 2.5. We are only talking a 25% premium over the cost of a weapon with smartlink 1. ((SL2 - SL1) / SL1).
Beside, you can always buy the external link if the internal link is jacking the price too high for your taste.
But the external link has a lot of poblems of its own, like getting damaged, getting stolen, not being able to be worn in every situation, etc. I dunno - I like magic-type characters, but with everyone bitching about how magic characters are so super bad-arse, why not have something that really whoops hoop for the mundanes? 
pssst... Because the mundanes are always worried that the magic guys will lose some magic and implant some of their mundane toys too.
| QUOTE (Prospero) |
| But the external link has a lot of poblems of its own, like getting damaged, getting stolen, not being able to be worn in every situation... |
Worn? Stolen?
I'm talking about the external link on the gun. It's as much a liability as a laser sight, no more, no less.
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
Worn? Stolen? I'm talking about the external link on the gun. It's as much a liability as a laser sight, no more, no less. |
Ohh. Right. For some reason I thought you were talking about the goggles. Carry on, then.
and toturi... some magic types, yeah, but since when is a smartlink better than a butt-whooping manabolt? (well, maybe for a conjuror or adept... but they don't really count
)
What precisley about the Smartlink 2 is nuts? It's a generally better piece of 'ware than the SL1, but you know, that's what happens when a useful piece of equipment is out on the market. It gets upgraded. None of the advantages it provides over the SL1 are really unbalancing, save perhaps if you let players make called shots to bypass armor all the time.
How do you not let them do it?
Corporal punishment?
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| How do you not let them do it? |
Don't let called shots bypass armor.
Really. Seriously. Called shots bypassing armor is perhaps one of the most unbalancing issues I have with ranged combat. The SL-2 just facilitates this, and while the option to call a specific shot of the body/vehicle/etc., is a viable option, and one that should be encouraged in certain circumstances...
...reducing armor to zero is more or less complete shit.
On the flip side, I agree with the concept of gear being refined, and improved in later releases, aka SL-2. Not to mention it's more or less the Samurai bread and butter. And given the pointed castration of our cyberpunk cornerstone, I say give the damn samurai whatever they can get.
-Rolemodel
...reducing armor to zero is more or less complete shit.
On the flip side, I agree with the concept of gear being refined, and improved in later releases, aka SL-2. Not to mention it's more or less the Samurai bread and butter. And given the pointed castration of our cyberpunk cornerstone, I say give the damn samurai whatever they can get.
-Rolemodel
Personally, I'm more likely to use the SL2 to fire for a special effect on a called shot, like maiming the target (blowing off the elbow of the hand holding the gun, then the opposite kneecap) so I'm not left with bodies to dispose of.
| QUOTE (Brazila) |
| There is no reason to ever get an SL1 anymore, since they have been introduced I have yet to see a PC choose 1 over 2. |
There are not practical reasons to buy a Model-T car or muzzle-loading rifle, either. Just aesthetics.
The Smartlink 1 is a case of obsolence.
Harking back to the good ol' "Mages with 'ware" bit, the Hermetic mage I just made is loaded out with 1 point of cyber - including the ubiquitous smartlink.
Admittedly, the character concept was for almost zero combat spells, and a personality that spawned from "When I grow up, I want to be a gun bunny... what do you MEAN I can use magic? Aw, that sucks..." but I feel that the SL/SL2 has almost surpassed the datajack in terms of commonality - at least for me. And you're right, it's never the SL1 unless it's bought post-chargen...
Admittedly, the character concept was for almost zero combat spells, and a personality that spawned from "When I grow up, I want to be a gun bunny... what do you MEAN I can use magic? Aw, that sucks..." but I feel that the SL/SL2 has almost surpassed the datajack in terms of commonality - at least for me. And you're right, it's never the SL1 unless it's bought post-chargen...
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 18 2005, 08:35 AM) |
| The Smartlink 1 is a case of obsolence. |
Well, yeah, but overall the gears of SR usually include more than a fair amount of game balance along with a pretense of realism.
Look at the wares increasing initiative.
It used to be there only was Wired Reflex
Then boosted reflex (cheaper in nuyen and essence, not as powerful, not upgradable)
Then synaptic accelerator (Least bang for your buck as far as speed is concerned, but much better for infiltration)
Then Move-By wire (More powerful, a helluva more expensive and essence costly).
None of these new ware have made the old wired reflex obsolete and they are about 15 years old! I still see new PCs created with (or hoping to acquire) any of these 4 enhancers. They give player more choices instead of a clear cut answer as to which is better.
Is that realist? No. After 15 years, a clear successor to the Wired reflex should have emerged. But if you just keep making initiative enhancers better instead of more varied, you screw with game balance big time. That's where suspension of disbelief comes in.
That's why SL2 raises so many eyebrows. If it was much more expensive (more than a 25% markup on the guns and a pittance on the cyberware) AND if it cost more essence (Say, 0.75), then the SL 2 would be to SL1 what Move-by-wire is to Wired refles and both could coexist. You'd still see players with SL1 while only dedicated gun bunny would go for SL2.
Boosted and Synaptic Accel stack. So Wired is exceeded in some respects.
MBW too... looks nice on paper, but unless you're getting it at at least level 3 you can do it cheaper and for less essence with boosted, SA and reflex recorders. I sat and worked it out for a thread a while back, if anyone's got the patience to search for it (I'm on dialup, so I don't forum search much 
)
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| QUOTE (Rolemodel) |
| Really. Seriously. Called shots bypassing armor is perhaps one of the most unbalancing issues I have with ranged combat. The SL-2 just facilitates this, and while the option to call a specific shot of the body/vehicle/etc., is a viable option, and one that should be encouraged in certain circumstances... ...reducing armor to zero is more or less complete shit. |
What "special circumstances" are you talking about? A head-shot is a head-shot. Unless they've been encased in carbonite, I'm not sure how they'd plan to avoid massive damage without armor.
Here's a thought. Companies that outfit their regular security in bulk will, when providing smartlinks, give 'em the SL1 instead of the SL2, because it's a lot cheaper.
Perhaps this might give some ideas to those that are interested.
Never had a problem with one my self, i find them great! just managed to rig one to a shock glove i have yet to try it out!!
shocking!
torz xx
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
What "special circumstances" are you talking about? A head-shot is a head-shot. Unless they've been encased in carbonite, I'm not sure how they'd plan to avoid massive damage without armor. |
The ranged combat rules in the main book do not allow head shots. They only allow vague "called shots" that increase the damage level by 1. Head shots is something the FAQ introduced.
They had to add this rule in the FAQ. Called shot for increased damage makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone ever used it?
Scenario:
5 dice, 3 combat pool
After all TN modifier except call shot, you have 2 options
9M TN 4
9S TN 8
Which is gonna do the most damage?
On average, you score 4 successes on TN4 and stage 9M to 9D.
On average, you score 1.11 sucesses on TN8 and damage stay 9S.
You have 0.3% odds of rolling no successes on TN4, 30.2% on TN8
You have to be completely stoned to make a call shot to increase damage.
Anyway, the more successes you get, the better was your aim, right? That's why damage stages up. Therefore rolling 4 sucesses on TN is the exact equivalent of having managed to hit a vital target. Called shot to increase damage is the quivalent of trading 2 extra sucesses against an increase in TN that will most likely cost you more than 2 successes. It's a sucker's bet.
Call shot to bypass armor makes sense, call shot for increased damage does not.
Scenario:
5 dice, 3 combat pool
After all TN modifier except call shot, you have 2 options
9M TN 4
9S TN 8
Which is gonna do the most damage?
On average, you score 4 successes on TN4 and stage 9M to 9D.
On average, you score 1.11 sucesses on TN8 and damage stay 9S.
You have 0.3% odds of rolling no successes on TN4, 30.2% on TN8
You have to be completely stoned to make a call shot to increase damage.
Anyway, the more successes you get, the better was your aim, right? That's why damage stages up. Therefore rolling 4 sucesses on TN is the exact equivalent of having managed to hit a vital target. Called shot to increase damage is the quivalent of trading 2 extra sucesses against an increase in TN that will most likely cost you more than 2 successes. It's a sucker's bet.
Call shot to bypass armor makes sense, call shot for increased damage does not.
depends. if there are no other TN mods, sure, a called shot to increase damage is stupid. on the other hand, if you can lower the TN for the shot, so that it's TN 2 for a normal shot or TN 4 for a called shot, or something similar? it might be worth it to go for the called shot.
A hike from TN 2 to 6 is considerably worse than an increase 4 to 8.
4 to 6 (if you have SL2) is almost as bad as 4 to 8. The result wouldn't change.
Only a TN of 2 that increases to TN 4 with a SL2 makes called shot for damage a good idea if you don't roll too many dice, and perhaps, just perhaps, TN 3 to TN 5. But if you are a crack shot rolling 10+ dice on these such a shot, don't make the call shot.
10 dice, TN2 = 8 1/3 successes on average
10 dice, TN4 = 5 sucesses on average
So if rolling 10 dice, don't call. At 6 dice, I would be indifferent. 5 dice or less, make the call shot.
EDIT : quick math tells me you have the same level of indifference with an increase of TN 3 to 5.
4 to 6 (if you have SL2) is almost as bad as 4 to 8. The result wouldn't change.
Only a TN of 2 that increases to TN 4 with a SL2 makes called shot for damage a good idea if you don't roll too many dice, and perhaps, just perhaps, TN 3 to TN 5. But if you are a crack shot rolling 10+ dice on these such a shot, don't make the call shot.
10 dice, TN2 = 8 1/3 successes on average
10 dice, TN4 = 5 sucesses on average
So if rolling 10 dice, don't call. At 6 dice, I would be indifferent. 5 dice or less, make the call shot.
EDIT : quick math tells me you have the same level of indifference with an increase of TN 3 to 5.
Also remember the FAQ is not technically canon like the errata is. It's an opinion or interpretation of the rules. Real, canon alterations of the rules are put int he errata.
I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the canon rule for call shot is pointless while the FAQ one has merits.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that the canon rule for call shot is pointless while the FAQ one has merits. |
The canon rule for called shots is to cover role playing possibilities where the GM determines the effect. Liek shooting someone int he calf to slow then down, or shooting out the tire on a car, that's adressed where the GM comes up with the effects.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| They had to add this rule in the FAQ. Called shot for increased damage makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone ever used it? |
Nope, and that's fine by me. In my book, if you shoot and give someone a deadly wound, its because you hit them in the head, or the heart, or wherever else you may want to make a called shot for.
Called shots work great for doing things like shooting tires and legs, but if they are allowed to bypass armor they're incredibly broken. All IMO, YMMV, and ILBPBMO of course.
| QUOTE |
| The canon rule for called shots is to cover role playing possibilities where the GM determines the effect. Liek shooting someone int he calf to slow then down, or shooting out the tire on a car, that's adressed where the GM comes up with the effects. |
A shot in the calf would decrease damage and restrict movement. While I'm all for ad libbing such situation, it's not covered in SR3 core book AFAIK.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Called shots work great for doing things like shooting tires and legs, but if they are allowed to bypass armor they're incredibly broken. All IMO, YMMV, and ILBPBMO of course. |
If you are shooting tires, you are bypassing armor.
Beside, it only forces player to be cautious. Nothing wrong with a rules that kills mostly PCs who rely more on armor than cover and positioning.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||||
The ranged combat rules in the main book do not allow head shots. They only allow vague "called shots" that increase the damage level by 1. Head shots is something the FAQ introduced. |
The head-shot is just an example is happend to choose.
My argument is pro-armor bypass, that meaning, if you get to make "a called shot" then I can see where allowing armor bypass would be allowed since you will probably making a attempt to hit a area less-protected (head, neck, etc.)
It should be mentioned that it's far from unreasonable to allow only partial armor bypass in special circumstances.
If you wear an armor jacket, it's mostly your chest that is protected. Against a full combat armor, it's not that easy. You could either increase TN further or only decrese armor partially or whatever strikes your fancy but it's understandable that a flat +4 TN = complete bypass armor is a bit unreasonable IMO.
If you wear an armor jacket, it's mostly your chest that is protected. Against a full combat armor, it's not that easy. You could either increase TN further or only decrese armor partially or whatever strikes your fancy but it's understandable that a flat +4 TN = complete bypass armor is a bit unreasonable IMO.
the bestest called shot rules ever, along with sundry other houserules.
| QUOTE (Charon) | ||
If you are shooting tires, you are bypassing armor. |
Which, when shooting at a vehicle is explicitly allowed, which is why I used it as an example.
I have noticed that some GM's will alow the full binifits of a SL2 only w/ teh cyber SL2. not with SL2 Goggels. Is there a SL2 goggle?
there are, yes, in CC. as i recall, they're more expensive than SL1 goggles. they ought, therefore, to get the bonus. says me.
Ok so question you do realize the SL 1 is main book gear and SL 2 is advanced gear from an expansion book.
So tell your players they can have SL but only level 1 it is all they can find till sometime in game then they can upgrade.
Heck if your timeline for your game is set before the release of SL 2 then your players shouldn't even know about it.
It is just me but hey my view is this it is my game so you use what I say is available and thus I get players useing SL 1.
So tell your players they can have SL but only level 1 it is all they can find till sometime in game then they can upgrade.
Heck if your timeline for your game is set before the release of SL 2 then your players shouldn't even know about it.
It is just me but hey my view is this it is my game so you use what I say is available and thus I get players useing SL 1.
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