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Arethusa
Yeah, and given the volatility of suspended bacteria in transportable state intended for munitions diffusion, probably both safer and more reliable.
kevyn668
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Still a force of 1. High force takes up meters of space, IIRC.

Bummer.

Thanks for the info anyway.
mfb
there aren't any strains of FAB that are really all that useful for direct use against single magical threats. i mean, sure, if you pop a force 10 cloud at a mage, he'll lose 1 magic point every few hours, but there aren't many cases where a timeframe like that is useful at all, unless you're talking about razing all magical activity in a large area.
Westiex
QUOTE
If the guy is a real jerk the next time he starts to climb a tree just say "roll body against 14S APDS".


Target's house is low set and has trees/shrubs around it. Means the sniper can't snipe from another building. He'd have to go into the propety and use one of the trees oh so thoughtfully provided ... with some sort of sensors and a kilo of explosive.

Works well as an early warning device, if one could rig it so that birds and small furry animals that like to climb trees don't set it off.
Arethusa
Or, you know, don't resort to asinine contrivances to stop sniping.
mfb
it's not the sniping that i think is problematic. it's the part where he's using a sniper rifle in non-sniping rolls. like, y'know, close combat.
Charon
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Feb 23 2005, 11:11 PM)
Or, you know, don't resort to asinine contrivances to stop sniping.


Yeah, I thought the problem wasn't sniping, it was the use of sniper rifle outside of its intended role.

Blowing up innocent trees has more to do with a Monty Python sketch than curbing the enthusiasm of silly players who think that a sniper rifle is a good substitute for common sense.

EDIT : Well, mfb beats me to it. But I made a Monty Python reference so I'll let the post stand even if it adds nothing of value. Eh.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Or, you know, don't resort to asinine contrivances to stop sniping.

Echo that.

I don't see the problem. The Super Sniper climbed a tree and shot some guards that didn't know it was coming. No prob.

In the next encounter the Super Sniper used a sniper rifle to shoot some metarats and then bash the rest. As others have said, there could have been some TN mods for the short range but there's nothing in the books that say so, IIRC. There are rules and penalties for defaulting, assuming that the character doesn't have Clubs (Rifle Butts) as a skill.

Unless he's using the Ranger Arms (worst bang for your buck IMO) there's nothing to say that he can't haul his rifle around--assuming its not in plain sight.

Likewise, there's nothing that says a char needs Rifle (B/R) to maintain the weapon, much like you don't need Pistols (B/R) to maintain your Pred or SMG (B/R) to maintain your Smartgun.

It seems like the problem (if there is one) is with the palyer or the GM, not the character. If the GM smacks down the character, the player will just make a "better" character next time.

Edit: Why does everyone turn to houserules to reign in unruly characters??
mfb
the problem, really, is that sniper rifles in SR are ridiculously overpowered. there wouldn't be a problem with them, if they did 9S. instead, nooooo, sniper rifles are the friggin' katanas of gunplay, so they do jesus goddamn christ D.

and, honestly? for the precision you get from a rifle that's designed for sniping, i don't think the frailty rules used for the Ranger are a bad idea to slap on all "sniper rifles".
Arethusa
This is actually something i brought up years ago when I was first introduced to SR; specifically, pistols, SMGs, carbines, etc see none of their real benefits in close quarters while rifles, sniper rifles, assault cannons, etc see none of their very real disadvantages. There is nothing (unless you count that one silly sniper rifle that can't be so much as dragged through combat without falling apart) in the rules that ever covers this.

My solution at the time, which eventually became a part of Canon Revision (which never materialized thanks to real life and lack of interest, but run a search if you're morbidly curious), was to apply specific sets of modifiers in close quarters (defined as ranges < 10m). Pistols got -1 TN, SMGs and short carbines got +0, rifles got +1, long rifles (like sniper rifles) got +2, and heavy things like an assault cannon clocked in at +3 and up at GM discretion. There were other modifiers that got more specific, but that covers the most pertinent stuff. I was never exactly happy with it, but I still feel it's the best solution ever reached (and, as far as I've seen, possible without a major reworking of the current ruleset).
mfb
yeah, i've discussed the same idea myself. if there's an SR4, something like that ought to go in it. it'll come right after the sane shotgun spread rules.
Arethusa
QUOTE (mfb)
the problem, really, is that sniper rifles in SR are ridiculously overpowered. there wouldn't be a problem with them, if they did 9S. instead, nooooo, sniper rifles are the friggin' katanas of gunplay, so they do jesus goddamn christ D.

and, honestly? for the precision you get from a rifle that's designed for sniping, i don't think the frailty rules used for the Ranger are a bad idea to slap on all "sniper rifles".

To clarify, yeah, the Ranger's frailty rules would balance things out if they landed on all the sniper rifles, and if you're sticking exclusively within canon material, that's as close as you can stay while applying some balance. But I still find them unreasonably excessive.

(And, yeah, 14D's nuts unless you want to say everything shoots .50BMG.)
kevyn668
I may have missed it but which rifle does the character in question use?
mfb
sure, nothing made for killing is that fragile. what might be worth considering is, instead of raising the TN for shots made with the weapon, just reduce the rifle's range to that of a normal hunting rifle until it's re-tuned.
Crusher Bob
The real problem is that an Alpha loaded with EX rounds and firing a burst does 13S, the sniper rifle firing a single normal round does 14S. The Alpha is good for 14 (?) bursts, the WA-2000 knock off hold 10 single rounds so there's hardly any loss of readly ammunition capacity.

And a magazine of 42 EX rounds for the Alpha costs 630 Y (!) on the street...
toturi
Factor in the added difficulty in dodging a burst as opposed to a single shot. I do not think that recoil should come into play, since I think it is a reasonable assumption that recoil compensation should be more than sufficient.
Arethusa
+1 dodge TNs is nice, but not usually that significant. Not enough to truly save the Alpha in that comparison, anyway.
Crusher Bob
hmm, lemme run some numbers:

iirc, dodging is norammly TN 4 with a +1 for bursts?

Assuming:

Body 4 runner with 6/4 armor
and has 6 CP available

Assuming our shooter (in either case, gets 4 successes)

Against the Alpha, they get 2 successes and resist 7D with body.

Against the Sniper Rfile (firing normal ammo)
They get 3 successes and resist 8S

I guess it's worth something after all...
Johnson
You have to remember that when being Sniped at you don't get to role dodge, its a full element surprise, so unless you have very good body guards. But Sniping is aspected to that only.

If you are going for close quarter assasination, it personal very close and personal and a chance of attrition to take its toll.

In both cases you are highly specialized.

Sniper
Right place right time, make every shot count.

Up colse and personal.

Right place right time, know the ground area you are fighting on and make it work for you. Every attack has to count.
toturi
You don't really use a Assault Rifle to snipe, you use a Sniper Rifle.
Crusher Bob
In that particular comparison, we were comparing the CQB abilities of the Alpha and the Sniper rifle. Almost any gun can kill someone with no combat pool available:

Sample: 22 LR Sport Rifle (doing 6L)

Sniping runner in the above example:

(Body 4, 6 Armor)

Our sniper is rolling 8 dice at TN 2, getting 7 successes.

Our target is rolling 4 dice against target number 2, and gets 3 successes, still taking a serious wound.

Had the sniper been using any sort of 'real gun' or had just a bit more skill (so more CP could be used on the shot) mr runner would be busy bleeding to death already.

Johnson
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Had the sniper been using any sort of 'real gun' or had just a bit more skill (so more CP could be used on the shot) mr runner would be busy bleeding to death already.

So Sniper should start with high calibre rifles first the as the CP and Skill Increases then they become more effective with small calibre Rifles..
Arethusa
QUOTE (Johnson)
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Feb 24 2005, 09:18 AM)
Had the sniper been using any sort of 'real gun' or had just a bit more skill (so more CP could be used on the shot) mr runner would be busy bleeding to death already.

So Sniper should start with high calibre rifles first the as the CP and Skill Increases then they become more effective with small calibre Rifles..

What?
Weredigo
QUOTE
Cops remedy this problem for me easily.

Have more runs take place in public joints.


Good idea.

I know I'm gonna get slammed for this but,

I read up on those FAB microbe things and immediately decided no. Reason, I personally see Magic, and technology as two completely different things. Yes I know the Microbes are "alive" and they have some effect on Magic, but I fear if I allow it in my game I'd get characters wanting to hunt down gods (as I do run a "polytheistic" game) with the little buggers. If they wanna shoot a Free Spirit, or Elemental, or some such summoned or magic based critter I'd prefer them to use Wax Rounds.

As detailed in the novel "Something Wicked This Way Comes" kill them with kindness, with Faith. Befor loading the clip (which should have been done before going to bed, or befor walking out the front door in the morning) take the round and carve the holy symbol of the character's faith upon it. Then when the Character has to use it, cross fingers, pray to powers that be, and pull trigger, if it doesn't work, run. Run Fast and try with something else.
Arethusa
Well, I'm expecting you get to get slammed for this too, but I just don't care enough to do it myself.
Johnson
QUOTE (Arethusa)
QUOTE (Johnson @ Feb 24 2005, 03:05 AM)
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Feb 24 2005, 09:18 AM)
Had the sniper been using any sort of 'real gun' or had just a bit more skill (so more CP could be used on the shot) mr runner would be busy bleeding to death already.

So Sniper should start with high calibre rifles first the as the CP and Skill Increases then they become more effective with small calibre Rifles..

What?

Game Mechanics. Low skill requires high calibre Rifle for successful use while high skill allows the successful use of low calibre rifle
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (Weredigo)
take the round and carve the holy symbol of the character's faith upon it. Then when the Character has to use it, cross fingers, pray to powers that be, and pull trigger, if it doesn't work, run. Run Fast and try with something else.

At least that would be a proactive method to try, instead of the typical fire at the monster until you're gun goes dry, then throw it down to the floor and throw your hands up as the camera does a tight zoom on your face (sorry, I've been on a z-grade movie binge).

Someone's take on FAB bullets (or some other way to smite spirits with firearms) seems to come up every few months, and I've yet to see anything that works with balanced consistancy.
Crusher Bob
Saying the little prayer: "free pizza for the GM if this works" seems to be pretty effective.
Austere Emancipator
There's no good reason to use anything but a high-powered rifle, though, no matter how high your skill is. Ammunition weight and cost, weapon weight, concealability and maneuverability, aural signature of firing -- none of these change. By going from Sniper Rifles to Sporting Rifles you get off cheaper, but you also lose a lot of your ability to affect armored vehicles or to engage targets at very long ranges, neither of which you skill can really compensate for.
Kagetenshi
Easier to explain at the airport?

~J
Dissonance
That's why the Decker is your friend. Gee, I can't imagine why that metal detector didn't go off or why that suitcase only showed clothing and a shaving kit.

Of course, that'd require a very good decker friend and a rifle that you could actually hide in a suitcase.
Austere Emancipator
Try taking any kind of rifle to the airport and explaining your way out of it. Maybe if you were a post-SoTA64 adept...
Johnson
I would expect that a good portable Snipers rifle would be able to brake down in to a suite case.

Barring the Hi calibre Drakenov. and some other military types.
Austere Emancipator
In SR, you can design any kind of rifle to allow breaking it down into a suitcase. The only Rifle (that is, a Rifle that you shoot with the Rifles skill) that I'm aware of (that appears in the books) that can break down is the Ranger Arms SM-3, which is presumably chambered for a very powerful round, since it does far more damage than a Heavy Machine Gun.

Most RL sniper rifles are in fact not capable of being broken down into small bits. Several are, but especially in the military it's quite rare (which, supposedly, is why neither the Barrett M121 nor the Walther MA-2100 can do this -- or that's the logic I'll happily use anyway).

The SVD Dragunov (alt link) is not of a particularly powerful caliber. It is chambered for the 7.62x54mmR, which is more or less equivalent of the 7.62x51mm NATO caliber used in many/most western sniper rifles and MMGs. It is certainly more powerful than assault rifles and the kind, but would reasonably stand at around a Damage Code of 9S in SR (since it is basically a Sporting Rifle and GPMG/MMG caliber). "Large caliber" in sniper rifles these days usually refers to specialist weapons meant for extremely long range sniping or, more commonly, anti-material work, in calibers such as the US .50BMG/12.7x99mm or the Russian 12.7x108mm, both of which generate 3-4 times as much kinetic energy at the muzzle as the 7.62s mentioned above.
Brambles
Many people asked for his equipment.

I don't have his papers here, but it's more or less like this:

He has the only sniper rifle in the book (Ranger Arms I believe)
- It has a bipod, and is smartlinked and scoped (thanks for the smartlink-scope thing, I didn't know it)
- thermographic vision
- he recently got vision magnification
- he has a camo suit (woods), but someone assured me camo suits can be overpainted as many times as you want

He has no B/R skills, but it's something I didn't think of... So next time I'll talk to him about it, or either let his weapon rust.
He got the weapon trough some maffia connection in Antwerp (UNL). He always carries it in corporate looking briefcase (a large one), so it is concealed. I make very sure he can never carry it trough detectors.

To make the characters, I used the rules in the sr3.

Someone pointed out the problem might be with the GM and the player... Well, this is my first time GM'ing seriously... ever. For a new game. I've read dumpshock since a while, and I really feel I'm getting better tough. Hopefully grinbig.gif

Thanks,
Brambles
Luke Hardison
You may have given him an advantage of which you were unaware. The availability for the Ranger Arms SM3 is 12/7 days. So he can't start with it (Starting characters can't have avail > 8, unless you house rule that part), and getting ahold of one before your first run can be tough, TN 12, 7 day wait, and base price of 16000, before the fixer tries to negotiate with you. That thing should be a PRIZED posession .. it cost him more than a vehicle! I don't think he'll take many chances with it when he realizes how much time, effort, and money it will take to replace. If he will, make the danger of losing it or having it fail very real if he mistreats it. Like if an officer finds it ... maybe that Lonestar beat cop has a kid with a disease, and the ~8 grand he can get for the rifle sounds better than getting a free arrest ... and he'll just take it from you.

It sucks to forget something during chargen and then have an overpowered character running around with that stuff indefinately. This would give you a chance to renew the balance ... generate a scenario when he needs to get it back that makes it just a *little* easier to get, to throw him a bone for his lost 4k in starting resources.

This assumes that you unintentionally allowed him to have the weapon in the first place. If you did it on purpose, none of that will really apply. If that's the case, then take more of the other suggestions on this thread, especially applying every modifier that is appropriate to the situation. Do this for bad guys, too, and for every combatant, not just the sniper. It makes for more cinematic firefights, anyway.
Jrayjoker
It is always good to brainstorm. I like the use of cover after the first shot and counterstrike force called in ASAP.

Does the Smartlink 2 + rangefinder combo stack?
mmu1
QUOTE (Brambles)
Many people asked for his equipment.

I don't have his papers here, but it's more or less like this:

He has the only sniper rifle in the book (Ranger Arms I believe)
- It has a bipod, and is smartlinked and scoped (thanks for the smartlink-scope thing, I didn't know it)
- thermographic vision
- he recently got vision magnification
- he has a camo suit (woods), but someone assured me camo suits can be overpainted as many times as you want

He has no B/R skills, but it's something I didn't think of... So next time I'll talk to him about it, or either let his weapon rust.
He got the weapon trough some maffia connection in Antwerp (UNL). He always carries it in corporate looking briefcase (a large one), so it is concealed. I make very sure he can never carry it trough detectors.

To make the characters, I used the rules in the sr3.

Someone pointed out the problem might be with the GM and the player... Well, this is my first time GM'ing seriously... ever. For a new game. I've read dumpshock since a while, and I really feel I'm getting better tough. Hopefully grinbig.gif

Thanks,
Brambles

If the rifle is the one from the SR3 basic book, then make sure you start using the rules for it coming out of alignment when used for anything more vigorous than long-range sniping. That thing has been designed to be next to useless in close quarter combat.

As a result, the lack of a B/R skill should hurt him enough just when it comes to getting it back into alignment - no need really to go overboard and actually force the use of the B/R skill just to clean the weapon properly and make sure it doesn't rust. (any more than you need Car B/R to change a tire or check the oil - the skill lets you build your own weapon from scratch with the right tools and equipment, it's not necessarily out of character for most of runners not to have it)
Charon
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 24 2005, 04:25 AM)
There's no good reason to use anything but a high-powered rifle, though, no matter how high your skill is.

There's no good reason if you assume a sniper rifle is as easy to acquire and replace as a hunting rifle. And as hard to trace. Which it is not.

One time a player used a sniper rifle in a mission, he had to abandon it on the ground to make good his escape (hard to mingle in a crowd with a rifle of any kind). He winced when it really sank in how much his profit margin would shrink if he replaced his rifle... He made an half-baked attempt to pass the lost rifle as a mission cost and thus spread the joy amongst the group. But everyone disagreed that it was necessary to use the sniper rifle in the first place when he could have covered them with an AR or a hunting rifle. Roughly translated from french, the main argument from the loudest mouthed player was : "I'm not giving you an extra 4000$ just because you're too much of a snob to use a a cheaper gun. You only had to shoot two guards and then cover our escape, for crying out loud! I warned you, you decided to be a moron, now suck it up." That PC was especially angry because he had specifically warned the sniper against overkill and was ignored.

Eh.

Nowadays whenever that player buys a sniper, it's always a Ranger-arms becacause of the better odds of saving the weapon during the escape if you have time to dismantle it and put it back in the case. Otherwise, he has accepted the principle of using appropriate tools for the jobs. In SR terms, these are tools that will do the job without leaving you broke when you drop them on the ground and cut your losses.

Same reasoning apply to LAW versus missile launcher. Why use LAW when you can use a missile launcher? Because if it's good enough to do the job, it saves you a fortune over any other missile alternative! The PC who was warning the sniper PC about overkill in the earlier example had learned his lesson in just that kind of missile scenario (Which is why I think he was needlessly harsh with the sniper player considering he did exactly that kind of mistake himself earlier in his 'career').

PS : Concerning the PC who had to drop his sniper rifle, if it had been a very high profile hit that demanded retaliation, I could have used the rifle to put some heat on the PC. While there are hundred of millions of hunting rifle, there are only thousands sniper rifle. Track down the producer, figure out how some sniper rifle could have ended up in the balck market... It's a far shot but it's very conceivable that law enforcement could trace the weapon up to the player's dealer. The more ressources are put on the case, the more likely it becomes. IMO, anyway. With a Hunting rifle, though, I could assume he would have been untraceable through the weapon without stretching suspension of disbelief.
mfb
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
alpha, etc.

yes, but the alpha isn't five feet long, the power of its bursts and EX ammo don't count against immunity: normal weapons, vehicle armor, or hardened armor, its range is significantly shorter, and it imposes a +1 TN per burst for recoil in the default configuration. there are lots of reasons why, in close combat, the alpha should be more useful (in terms of real-world application) and less unbalancing (in terms of game mechanics) than a sniper rifle.
Kagetenshi
Can the sniper rifle perform suppressive fire?

~J
mfb
we call the ones that can "HMGs". hoo, i kill me. seriously, though, i'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Kagetenshi
I suppose it wasn't clear; that was a rhetorical question. You have a point, though smile.gif

~J
mfb
you post, ninja-fast, before i edit!
Garland
Only if it's an FA sniper rifle. (Egah!)
Jrayjoker
That is the shortest full auto burst ever....

bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-click.

biggrin.gif
Critias
Dragunov's have a full auto setting, IRL.
Garland
QUOTE (Critias)
Dragunov's have a full auto setting, IRL.

Can they accept some sort of much larger mag?
Arethusa
I imagine it's possible.

As for automatic sniping in general, the sniper rifles Counter-Strike made famous (SG550 and G3/SG1) may be nothing like their ingame counterparts, but they also come in FA varieties. Despite what computer games say, this can actually be useful in the right setting (ironically, I think The Bourne Identity shows this fairly well), though I wouldn't personally make a habit out of it.
mfb
yeah. "anything that's worth shooting once is worth shooting twice" trumps "one shot, one kill" every time.
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