Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: What can you Dikote?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
BrazilRascal
After _years_ of running games and yearning for some of my ungrateful friends to start something so I can be a player again, one of them has caught the hint and is starting a SR group. rotfl.gif

Now that I am once again facing the challenge of making my character obeying rules (instead of just tailor-fititng my nPCs to the party), there are a few issues I'm havig with the Gear part (that accounts for 80% of making nearly all SR characters).

The main one is: what exactly can you Dikote?

This question regard mostly armor. According to the CC, it has to be rigid, non-kevlar armor. That excludes most armor that is not military (and that is already fearsome enough without the coating). Lined Coats have rigid plates inside, in addition to their ballistic fabric. Can those be dikoted and grant any benefit?

I've seen some non-canon characters with Dikoted Forearm Guards. While that does make sense (they seem to be quite rigid protection), would you allow it as a GM?

What else is there...Ares monoswords? Narcoject needles? Flechette rounds? Fang implants?


Plerase note that I don't intend to exploit every single instanc ein which the nifty Dikote bonuses can be applied. But sinc eone of the games I'm running is nearing its final stage, and the next one I start will likely be Shadowrun, I'd rather already deal with as many issues as possible. Thanks in advance.
Capt. Dave
AVS ally spirits.

My view is that if it can withstand the immense heat of the Dikote® process, it can be dikoted. Most metals and ceramics can be dikoted, IMO.
As always, YMMV.
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
There are old threads about this...
Endgame50
I don't have anything to back this up, but it was always my understanding the kevlar was the main component of the ballistic rating and the plates were the main component of the impact. Even if that's not the case, I don't see why they couldn't be dikoted, but I don't know if they should give the full +1/1 armor bonus (which would represent the whole thing getting dikoted).
Austere Emancipator
Dikoting, how much is too much?
Dikote
You can make rigid plates out of kevlar, wittness kevlar helmets, but those would still be ruined in the Dikote furnace. Since the Lined Coat is so light, I'd assume any rigid plates in it are not made out of an armor steel or ceramic alloy and so would be ruined (basically reduced to soot) by the Dikoting process.

Kevlar, in flexible as well as in rigid form, provides very decent protection against most of the attacks which count as "Impact" in SR, and the advent of stab (and cut) resistant body armor in the past years gives me a reason to believe flexible body armor will only become better at this in the next 60 years. But, really, the canon B/I ratings of armor aren't exactly logical, so you can use whatever reasoning you prefer.
Sandoval Smith
A quick and dirty answer would be you can conceivably dikote anything that could survive insertion into the blast furnace where the coating is initially applied.
DrJest
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
AVS ally spirits.

I have to ask. That gag (?) has been around since before I joined DS, and I've never really gotten it. What's it all about? (I am SO not wanting to do a forum search on a dial up connection sarcastic.gif )
Austere Emancipator
I'd dig out some classic discussions from the Old Forums, but they don't seem to be around anymore?
DrJest
I've worked out that AVS probably stands for Ares Viper Slivergun, a wonderfully illogical piece of tech (right up there with the conceal 8 remington roomsweeper), but I don't get the ally spirit thing or why it comes up in reference to Dikoting (unless someone wanted to Dikote the flechettes... um... not sure how that would be done, but anyway). It also seems to get referenced to sex with ally spirits?

In other words - huh?!?!?!?!?
Austere Emancipator
While Jive.Dumpshock.Com is down, I think this thread captures the silliness rather well.

It's all to do with munchkinny or just plain silly stuff in SR that's been debated far too often for us to retain our sanity.
Wireknight
The general assumptions I've made are that Lined Coat, Armor Jacket, and Vest With Plates are the only non-combat armors one can apply a dikote glaze to in order to improve their armor ratings. Standard armor vest/clothing, as well as all securetech and designer armored apparel, do not employ the right sorts of materials. Any combat armor(security or military) can accept dikote treatment.

Those are just house rulings I've made, though. As far as I know, there have never been any specific canon rulings one way or the other with regard to specific pieces of armor. It is thus, at this moment, the game master's call. My calls are listed in the first paragraph. I also permit the dikoting of obvious cyberlimbs, so one could surmise that I am crazy.
Pthgar
Dikoting armor plates make sense if you've heard of the concept of hardened armor. Basically the face of the armoe is avery hard rigid material that the projectile shatters against. Since hard material tend to be very brittile, behind that is a softer material that will absorb any projectile that get through the first hard layer.
You can do this with one piece of metal. In the shop where my da used to work they hardened their own chisels by heating them cherry red with a blowtorch and then quenching them in oil. The tip was hardened but the stock was softer.
Modern Chobam armor for the Abrams Tank is a composite. In addition to hardened steel it has a hard layer of ceramic (glass can be very hard but brittile) and depleted uranium is the soft layer. The exact formula is a secret.
The Dikoted plate would be the hard part, the kevlar the soft part.
Smiley
QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
My view is that if it can withstand the immense heat of the Dikote® process, it can be dikoted. Most metals and ceramics can be dikoted, IMO.
As always, YMMV.

Ditto.
Weredigo
Interesting question and Idea. Someone once mentioned that Dikoting a transmitter might boost a signal... would that work and why.

If so Why not an active pocket seceratary set to auto answer? With enough layers, take it in with you, get it close enough to a reciever and you wouldn't have to take your Decker into the facility with you. Would it work, if not why?
lorthazar
Useful items to dikote

the skate part of your ice skates

ballbearing in your roller skates/skateboard/ or engine

barrels of guns

your kitchen knife set

your twist ring glass cutter

your spiked 'brass knuckles'

climbing gear

masonary nails (for your nailgun)

your favorite sword/pimp cane dikote the steel tip too

your shower curtain rod (never know when ghouls are gonna crash in for lunch)

your front door, siding, ceramic inserts in your furniture, then get polorized armor glass window

every circuit board you own (reduces heat)

your gun safe

a fake credstick (all the better for improvised weapons)

your mirrorshades

the ceramic casing on your pocket secretary

your helicopters rotors

the turbines in your jet

all your basic tools

your implanted retractable fangs (jawbreakers are history)

the ballbearings in your improvised claymore mines

if all else failed dikote a dimond and watch your GM go "huh?"
toturi
QUOTE (Pthgar @ Feb 25 2005, 02:04 PM)
Modern Chobam armor for the Abrams Tank is a composite.  In addition to hardened steel it has a hard layer of ceramic (glass can be very hard but brittile) and depleted uranium is the soft layer.  The exact formula is a secret.

Eh, are you sure there is a depleted uranium layer? I mean you have depleted uranium shells because of the density of the depleted uranium hence the greater mass and weight, but depleted uranium armour? I want my armour to be light, not heavy.

And for those who are still wondering: it is a Dikoted AVS Ally Spirit.

Dikoted because you can Dikote everything. AVS because it is such a great gun. And in human form, you can have sex with your ally spirit.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Weredigo)
Interesting question and Idea. Someone once mentioned that Dikoting a transmitter might boost a signal... would that work and why.

If so Why not an active pocket seceratary set to auto answer? With enough layers, take it in with you, get it close enough to a reciever and you wouldn't have to take your Decker into the facility with you. Would it work, if not why?

From modern commercial applications of Dikote, I see nothing that would indicate that it would help at all to boost transmitter signal. Dikote makes for great thermal dispersion and corrosion-resistant surfaces, with applications similar to Teflon, but not much else:

http://www.p1diamond.com/cvd_diam.html
Weredigo
QUOTE
I wan tmy armour to be light, not heavy.
Depleted Uranium Armor. As long as I'm assured there wouldn't be a nuclear bomb effect if it does get hit with a DU/Blueberry round I'd go ahead and say Great for Vehicles, but not what I'll be wearing on my person.
hahnsoo
Speaking of armor, I wonder if SR has an equivalent to the armor shown in these trials:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...19%2Fnmod19.xml
DrJest
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
While Jive.Dumpshock.Com is down, I think this thread captures the silliness rather well.

It's all to do with munchkinny or just plain silly stuff in SR that's been debated far too often for us to retain our sanity.

Cheers AE, and that's a hell of a read smile.gif
The White Dwarf
Ill take dikoted search functions for 500 alex
Cray74
QUOTE (toturi)
Eh, are you sure there is a depleted uranium layer? I mean you have depleted uranium shells because of the density of the depleted uranium hence the greater mass and weight, but depleted uranium armour? I want my armour to be light, not heavy.

I'm absolutely sure. Modern Abrams add a face plate of uranium to their armor. The process was started on the M1A1. Google up: Abrams uranium armor

For vehicular armors facing very high velocity threats ("long rod penetrators" and HEAT), DU is more than worth its weight, so you could say it is "light armor" - you'd need more weight of almost any other material to get the same protection benefits.

QUOTE
As long as I'm assured there wouldn't be a nuclear bomb effect if it does get hit with a DU/Blueberry round


Consider yourself assured.

The only way you can make depleted uranium into a functional part of a nuclear bomb is to set off a large fusion bomb inside a jacket of depleted uranium. If you have large fusion bombs going off inside your vehicle's armor, I wouldn't really worry about whether your armor is also making a nuclear explosion.

Natural uranium (let alone depleted uranium) is generally unsuited to support nuclear reactions. You can get natural uranium to power certain types of nuclear reactions, but depleted uranium is a complete loss as far as nuclear reactions go.

The reason DU is used in armor is because it is waste from the uranium enrichment process (where uranium is turned into useful fuel), and thus is cheap - the nuclear industry wants nothing to do with the depleted uranium. Competing metals like tungsten are much more expensive and harder to work into armor.

So, no, don't worry about DU armor being hit by DU rounds. DU sucks as far as nuclear reactions go.

QUOTE
I'd go ahead and say Great for Vehicles, but not what I'll be wearing on my person.


Depleted uranium is about the weakest radiation source out there. A layer of paint will block its radiation, as will your outer (dead) skin cells. Contrary to certain hysteric reports, DU isn't particularly toxic either, about the same as lead. Prior to the advent of Kevlar, I recall lead had some use in armor vests.

QUOTE
My view is that if it can withstand the immense heat of the Dikote® process, it can be dikoted. Most metals and ceramics can be dikoted, IMO.


What he said.
DrJest
QUOTE
The only way you can make depleted uranium into a functional part of a nuclear bomb is to set off a large fusion bomb inside a jacket of depleted uranium. If you have large fusion bombs going off inside your vehicle's armor, I wouldn't really worry about whether your armor is also making a nuclear explosion.

Natural uranium (let alone depleted uranium) is generally unsuited to support nuclear reactions. You can get natural uranium to power certain types of nuclear reactions, but depleted uranium is a complete loss as far as nuclear reactions go.

The reason DU is used in armor is because it is waste from the uranium enrichment process (where uranium is turned into useful fuel), and thus is cheap - the nuclear industry wants nothing to do with the depleted uranium. Competing metals like tungsten are much more expensive and harder to work into armor.


Ok, so far so good. What about these so-called "uranium tipped" rounds? I've only encountered them in fiction - eg in one of the Shadowrun novels (I think it was the one with the fiberoptic cable tap) where someone's toting around an archaic Barret Light 50 and using them. The fiction describes them as having a kind of fireball effect when they compress at high speed against body armour. I freely admit to not knowing enough about uranium reactions to know if that makes any kind of sense. Anyone?
Pthgar
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 25 2005, 09:28 AM)
I'm absolutely sure. Modern Abrams add a face plate of uranium to their armor.

Thanks for the backup Cray. I was asleep.

Dr.Jest, DU "tipped" probably means a APDS with a DU penetrator rod. DU penetrators on tank rounds are talked about here and here

The relevent portion to your comment is this:
QUOTE
On impact with a hard target (such as a tank) the penetrator may generate a cloud of DU dust within the struck vehicle that ignites spontaneously creating a fire that increases the damage to the target. Due to the pyrophoric nature of DU, many of the DU particles and fragments that are formed during and following impact and perforation will spontaneously ignite, resulting in a shift of the particle size probability distribution function to a smaller mean diameter. As a result of physical differences between DU and its oxides, the oxide particles tend to crumble under relatively weak mechanical forces, further shifting the particle size to an even smaller mean diameter.


I can't see a .50 cal DU round doing this. I would think that if you could get a .50 cal DU round it would just pass through the body armor (and body) like it was butter. Body armor isn't hard enough to cause the fireball effect.
The whole globalsecurity.org website is awsome for this sort of info.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DrJest)
I've only encountered them in fiction - eg in one of the Shadowrun novels (I think it was the one with the fiberoptic cable tap) where someone's toting around an archaic Barret Light 50 and using them.

Yup, pure fiction. DU small arms ammunition has never existed out of a drawing board. The smallest DU round I'm aware of is the US M919 APDS-T fin-stabilized round for the M242 25mm cannon (found e.g. on the M2/M3 Bradley). No idea whether the Soviets designed DU ammunition for 23mm or 20mm cannons.
audun
QUOTE (Cray74)
Depleted uranium is about the weakest radiation source out there.

Really? So my ceramic coffee cup has more radiation than depleted uranium eek.gif
QUOTE
A layer of paint will block its radiation, as will your outer (dead) skin cells. Contrary to certain hysteric reports, DU isn't particularly toxic either, about the same as lead.

And lead isn't toxic?
DrJest
Right, so someone extrapolated badly scaling down from Pthgar's tank-killers to a rifle round. Somehow I didn't think it would work, but you never know. Cheers!
Pthgar
Not so toxic that you die horrible internal organ disintegrating type demise from the smallest exposure as some hysterics would like you to beleive.

Check out this link for an analyisis of DU health impacts. It is pretty dense but infomative.
Pthgar
My tank-killers? eek.gif I must have missed all the money from the patent rights and stuff! Who do I sue! wink.gif
DrJest
Anyone you like. If they can successfully prosecute a case suing McDOnalds because you scalded youself on their hot coffee the sky's the limit rotfl.gif

(Edited to replace what turned out to be an urban myth)
Cray74
QUOTE (audun @ Feb 25 2005, 02:50 PM)
QUOTE (Cray74)
A layer of paint will block its radiation, as will your outer (dead) skin cells. Contrary to certain hysteric reports, DU isn't particularly toxic either, about the same as lead.


And lead isn't toxic?


No, lead is toxic. Not cyanide toxic, not sarin gas toxic, but it is toxic. It's one of those slow and insidious toxins. Lead poisoning can take years to work its fun around a lodged bullet.

QUOTE
If they can successfully prosecute a case suing McDOnalds because you scalded youself on their hot coffee the sky's the limit


The scalded geezer in question needed skin grafts for the third degree crotch burns she received. She sued for medical bills; the jury awarded more, probably after being forced to sit through photographs of scalded old lady crotch.
DrJest
QUOTE
The scalded geezer in question needed skin grafts for the third degree crotch burns she received. She sued for medical bills; the jury awarded more, probably after being forced to sit through photographs of scalded old lady crotch.


The way we heard it over here was that the old lady spilled her coffee on herself, causing the burns, and the basis of her case was that there was no warning about the coffee being hot.

A bit of Google-fu turned up this site which is pro-lawsuit (considering the site belongs to a legal firm specialising in malpractice and personal injury, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised). They make an interesting case, but (even though I really hate McDonalds) I have to say nonetheless - it's coffee. Coffee is supposed to be hot. If you don't take care with a cup of steaming liquid, I'm not convinced that it's anyone's fault but yours.
Pthgar
ˇCuidado! ˇCaliente!
Cray74
QUOTE (DrJest @ Feb 25 2005, 03:32 PM)
They make an interesting case, but (even though I really hate McDonalds) I have to say nonetheless - it's coffee. Coffee is supposed to be hot. If you don't take care with a cup of steaming liquid, I'm not convinced that it's anyone's fault but yours.


My counter point to that (summed up in that link as McFact 1 and 2) is that it was within McDonalds' power to mitigate that scalding while still delivering a satisfactorily hot cup of coffee.

By itself, that's not enough - if McD's was clueless about the problem, then I'd say the old lady is on her own. However, McD's was not unaware of the problem and, in fact, the food prep industry was taking safety measures (temperature reduction) to deal with the problem. (The 20-degree temperature reduction has enormous benefits in reducing scalding.) McD's willfully ignored a safety hazard entirely within its control to mitigate.

Of course, the old lady was at fault, too (duh: the coffee's hot, be careful), but she punished herself pretty well (IMO).

Based on my past experience with this topic, if the conversation continues, we're probably going to get a bit circular. Some people think it's all the old lady's fault; I think McD's knowingly offered a defective product it could've fixed easily. Neither side will be convinced and just reiterate their position with new phrasing. smile.gif
Tarantula
Maybe she should sue the car company too. There wasn't a warning on the car stating do not operate while handling potentially hot beverages. What about the styrofoam cup? Caution: Handle with care to avoid spilling beverage. Maybe the dress? Warning: Does not provide protection against severe temperature differences. How about the seat? Warning: Will possibly absorb harmful substances if spilled on. How about for the distance between the drive-through window and her car, maybe she had to lean, and thats why she spilled it on herself, sue for that too. Oh, don't forget, on the cup they need to add, Warning: Take care if elderly, hand shakes may cause beverage spilling.
Pthgar
Taking out the hard plastic plates in the Hardliner gloves and replacing them with dikoted ceramic could be usefull.
Foreigner
Ladies and Gentlemen:

Raygun has information on his Website that specifically addresses this topic. smile.gif


Shadowrun and Firearms: APDU/APDSDU ammunition

Some time ago, I read a magazine article on this particular topic. IIRC, the figures for small arms ammunition firing depleted uranium ammunition against RHA (rolled homogeneous armor, i.e., steel) were as follows:

(1) 5.56 X 45mm NATO (.223 Remington): 30 mm (1.18 inches) at 500 meters, provided the bullet strikes at an angle of greater than 45 degrees relative to the plate;

(2) 7.62 X 51mm NATO (.308 Winchester): 50 mm (1.97 inches) at 800 meters, otherwise under the same conditions as (A) above; and

(3) .50 Browning Machine Gun (12.7 X 99mm): 100 mm (3.4 inches) at 1000 meters, otherwise under the same conditions as (A) and (B) above.

Again, though, I read the article approximately 25 years ago (it was while I was in high school, and I graduated in June of 1982), so my memory is probably suspect as regards the specific details.

--Foreigner
Tarantula
The actual link is:
Here
Tarantula
double posted, delete
Foreigner
Thanks, Tarantula. smile.gif

I thought I had it right, but I couldn't seem to make it work after the first try.

DrJest, Cray74:

I may be wrong, but I believe that the crux of the plaintiff's argument was that the McDonald's restaurant in question knowingly used a piece of defective equipment: the thermostat on the coffeemaker was defective (it was producing coffee approximately 30 degrees hotter than the set temperature). IIRC, coffeemakers are designed to serve hot liquids at temperatures of between 120 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit (between 43 and 56 degrees Celsius). The coffeemaker in question was producing coffee at with a temperature of approximately 160 degrees Fahrenheit/68 degrees Celsius--to compound matters, the employees at this particular restaurant were aware of the problem, but had not yet undertaken corrective measures.

--Foreigner
Austere Emancipator
Drop one /navframe from that link, the real address is http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/sp...ecial/apdu.html
Cray74
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Maybe she should sue the car company too.  There wasn't a warning on the car stating do not operate while handling potentially hot beverages. 

1) She was a passenger.
2) The car was stopped.

QUOTE
What about the styrofoam cup?


Strawman suggestion. The cup had no influence or reasonable ability to avoid overheating the coffee - unlike McDonalds' employees, who knew there was a problem with the coffee. It also could not prevent spilling the coffee when the user was determined to open it.

QUOTE
Maybe the dress?


Another strawman argument. The dress had nothing to do with it. It had no influence or reasonable ability to avoid overheating coffee - unlike McDonalds. It also could not prevent spilling the coffee when the user was determined to open the coffee.

QUOTE
How about the seat?


Another irrelevancy. The seat had nothing to do with it. It had no influence or reasonable ability to avoid overheating coffee - unlike McDonalds. It also could not prevent spilling the coffee when the user was determined to open the coffee.

QUOTE
How about for the distance between the drive-through window and her car


Yet another irrelevancy. Trying to pass off strawman suggestions as reasonable methods of preventing burns from scalding coffee is nonsensical.

There were only two parties able to easily prevent the burns: the plaintiff and McDonalds. They were both at fault.

For her penance, the plaintiff received third degree burns and needed skin grafts. IMO, the scales of justice were balanced on her part - she was clumsy, she got burned, and badly. McDonalds, for knowingly overheating the coffee, had to pay the plaintiff's medical bills.

QUOTE
Taking out the hard plastic plates in the Hardliner gloves and replacing them with dikoted ceramic could be usefull.


It would make them more wear resistant, but I don't think dikoting influences blunt damage.
Herald of Verjigorm
Dikote on blunts usually provides a +1 to power as opposed to the +1(+1DL) that blades get.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Cray74)
[...] I don't think dikoting influences blunt damage.

Unfortunately it does. Any Dikote-coated melee weapon, blunt or not, gets a +1 to Power according to mm.111. This doesn't make much sense, of course, but there you have it.
Pthgar
Page 111, Man and Machine, "When Dikote is used to coat a melee, throwing, or projectile weapon, add 1 to the Power of any attack made with the treated weapon. If applied to an edged instrument such as asword, the weapons Damage Level is also increased by one."

Not much of a bonus, but severy little bit can help.

[Edit] Rules avalanche!
Fortune
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 26 2005, 05:33 AM)
It would make them more wear resistant, but I don't think dikoting influences blunt damage.

It adds 1 to the Power, but not the Damage Level.

Edit: Bah!!! nyahnyah.gif
Pthgar
Dikote the optics on all your gear. Your lenses will never scratch and you can show sandstorms your bum (figuratively speaking).
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Dikote the optics on all your gear. Your lenses will never scratch and you can show sandstorms your bum (figuratively speaking).

Wouldn't that throw the optics WAY off? Even a few microns of transparent material can bend light enough to throw your optics out of whack.
Pthgar
Recalibrate. If your optics are pure optics (no electronics) this might not be possible. If your optics use a ccd it may be more likley.
When I wore glasses (yea! laser surgery!) they would always ask me if I wanted a U.V. or Glare Reduction or Scratch Resistant coating. I don't know how thick those coatings were, but they were able to compensate for it somehow.
Weredigo
even if it throws the optic's off a hair. Either have the B/R skill so you can recalibrate it yourself or have a technician do it for you.

I personally like the sun shades idea.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012