i hear you can get pills for that, now.

Yeah, but it's more fun this way

They already lost legitimacy when they interned the Natives. What difference would it make when compared to losing what's just south of Albuquerque?

But like I said, I don't think too hard about it because if I did, a) my head would explode, and b) it wouldn't make a fucking bit of difference.

Regarding how the U.S. Army got their hoop kicked by some groups of Natives dancing around I think the writers depended heavily on the magic aspect. Which I think could make sense if you think about the psychological impact magic would have. All of the sudden all those young kids who've never seen, never believed, and never thought those miraculous things happening were possible get scared out of their wits and put down their arms. I'm sorry, but if I were to see something like a dozen tornadoes heading for my base I'm frickkin gone. This was a weapon that the U.S. not only didn't have, but didn't understand. I think maybe the writers were trying to set up an ironic parallel to what happened to the first natives that saw the white man come with his horses, steel, and gunpowder. Those are weapons you don't understand and don't have at your disposal. And when your weapons you use don't have any effect, what then? That's right, if you're a soldier, eff Uncle Sam and that contract you signed, you're mortally afraid and run away. Or let me put it in a more recent frame of mind, remember what happened to Japan at the end of WW II? After only two friggin' big bombs were dropped they surrendered unconditionally. It was a weapon they didn't have and didn't understand. Create two big, major magical effects (such as a volcano explosion and a dozen tornadoes ripping apart a base) and you've got the U.S. by their balls, and they give up all that land and move their people out because they are in fear. After that the NANs suddenly have a very low population density for all that land, but nobody's gonna be messin' with their borders, at least for a while until everybody catches up, magic-wise.

Plus I remember reading somewhere that the Great Ghost Dance was magic of such a high magnitude the drain was measured in how many people died during the ritual. I'd say it was the largest use of magic ever seen in this world, maybe before, but definitely since.

Hundreds died, IIRC.

And there were three big magical effects: Redondo Peak erupting, killing around 20,000 people in and around Los Alamos; the tornadoes and storms that took out the 6th Cav while it was invading New Mexico; the eruption of a half-dozen volcanoes along the west coast.

The thing is, I don't doubt the stupifying effect the GGD would have on the U.S. It's that the U.S. is too stupid to know when to give up.

Indeed. Well said.

I mean, the U.S. government can give up, or it can harken back to the 100,000 airplanes. Make 'em, recruit 'em, turn 'em, or kill 'em. Doesn't matter to them. And given the circumstances, if it means turning various bases (like Bangor) into glowing craters, then so be it. it beats the alternative, because when the U.S. decided to capitulate they were facing an enemy with magic and nuclear weapons.

But like I said, we're too stupid to give up. Even if it means depopulating a bunch of useless states like Washington.

Which brings me to another point: How did a bunch of Indian terrorists launch an ICBM? I can accept them taking over the complex. I can accept the military's inability to take out the missile as it left the silo. But how on Earth did they get the codes to launch that missile?

What if we say (since canon says not) that the actual, intended effect of the Great Ghost Dance is some kind of mind control that rolls out despair and saps the will of the enemy? Maybe it only affects those descended from the anglo aggressors or something, and causes their soul to be haunted into surrender.

Just two points, although I'm not favoring either side of the argument for my own sanity:
* The Mormons passively helped the SAIM. There are enough Mormons across the West that I could see them as being a major positive factor.

* The original Great Ghost Dance was supposed to do two things: Make the Buffalo return, and make the White Man go back to his homeland.

Also (not pertinent to Shadowrun), Castle Falkenstein is another RPG that does the Native American Nation thing (set in the Victorian Age, so it's a bit more plausible), and they have an interesting take on the Great Ghost Dance. It's in the "Sixguns and Sorcery" sourcebook which deals with the Post-Civil War US.

AFAIK, the football doesn't work that way.

AFAIK.

I always figured it was the US government that launched the missile. They get advance warning that a small faction of SAIM, hell maybe they infiltrated someone and they agitated for the whole idea, is planning to take over the silo so they make a few modifications to the missile. When SAIM makes their moves Washington presses the button and the missile launch sequence starts automatically without the silo controllers needing to do anything and it can't be stopped. They've already fixed the warhead so it doesn't detonate and they only launch a single one so Russia won't retaliate.

Then send in the Delta team who conveniently kill all of the terrorists so there's no-one left to challenge your version of events. The way is now clear for you to throw the natives off of their lands and sell the resources to the corporations.

That works, too.

More logical than a bunch of effing IEs, too.

Maybe the SAIM had inside help. There are many Native Americans in the military and almost anyone can be bought.

One of the missile operators was Indian.

Damnation. I retract my question. Something else just occured to me that rendered it moot.

the NAN might, just to fill out their own populations. they've got quite a bit of farmland; while the anglo reservations probably maintain a lot of that, there was still a major population shift away from the western mid-west, which means there are a lot of crop fields in need of cheap labor. this meshes nicely with the general drop in crop production and the rise of soy products, as well; if america's breadbasket loses too much labor, natural foodstuffs will become scarce.

Or that they'd want to leave? I mean, Mexico hasn't exactly treated them well either, and they still hang on.

n/m