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fistandantilus4.0
Maybe it's just my imagination, but I'm noticing a pretty big lack of anything concerning the matrix on the threads here. Just happened to notice it the other night.
I know a lot of people complain that a lot of the newer books (206x) are concentrating on magic, at the exclusion of other topics (sammies, riggers, deckers). But I kind of see that here too.
Basically just wondering if anyone is really still playing deckers/otaku. I know they've lost a lot of importance with the security change over to rigged security, plus they're not very popular with a lot of people because of the complexity of decking. I like it because of that, but whatever.

Anyways, guess I'm just wondering what everyone here thinks about where decking is going right now. I know it's still showing up plenty in the core books (brainscan, threats2, everything Deus basically), but don't see much of it here.

It seems they're trying to do more with it (WMI for example). Does anyone else see a trend of a lack of deckers in their game? is it just me?
Kagetenshi
I've moved towards Riggers myself, but they typically deck and decking is my true calling. Riggers just have more versatility.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
TH'ats what I've done too. All my deckers are riggers as well. Or rig/deck. Whatever. Maybe because it's just so easy to be a decker (just one core skill). Are they less useful as just deckers to you, say, as opposed to 2nd edition?
hahnsoo
I think everyone needs a breather after all the stuff thrown around about the otaku in general and SCIRE in particular. There are still threats dealing with the fallout of that event. Personally, I'd like to see some development along the lines of the Sim-Vironment and the WMI. Imagine black ice designed to kill you in the real world using a WMI connection and Simvironment (probably not going to be common place, but would be a good "closed room" murder mystery run).

Sim-Vironment is very similar to a concept in Cybergeneration that I was quite fond of. Not sure if it will work in Shadowrun, but it could have some interesting "wrinkles" for your average B&E datasteal: A person tries to sneak into an office and access some files, only to find an empty room with some trodes. He figures out "Hey, the dude has a Sim-Vironment desk" and puts on the trodes. A decker is standing there waiting, grinning, a Killjoy cartoon hammer in his hand...

I personally love playing deckers... about half my characters were competent deckers, if not exclusively a decker. Every time I play a non-decker, I itch to put a datajack into the head of my poor character and try to build up a computer skill (I'm resisting it at the moment with my home group... "I vill be stronk!").
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
TH'ats what I've done too. All my deckers are riggers as well. Or rig/deck. Whatever. Maybe because it's just so easy to be a decker (just one core skill). Are they less useful as just deckers to you, say, as opposed to 2nd edition?

Indeed. Computers 6 is also extremely useful to Riggers for preprogrammed drone commands. That, and satellite dishes on vans are love.

WMI needs to die, but I've already said my piece on that.

~J
hahnsoo
I personally think the WMI will allow decker characters to be uber-menaces again. They're already pretty good at hacking into existing wireless connections on home networks (just strap on a cellular tap, and deck right into someone's cookie information, from the next apartment over... instant dossier, and possibly password information as well). But being able to tap into someone's pocket secretary because they are lazy and don't turn off their connection... it will be a free world of paydata all over again. It's not going to replace hardlines or existing grids, not by any extent of the imagination (simply not secure enough), but it will be another way for deckers to exploit the computer-illiterate masses. And it's not related to all the wonky otaku/AI crap that has been the central focus of the Matrix lately.

Heck, most of the issues that are relevant to the WMI are happening right now, today, in the modern world. It's a timely subject to bring into the game, I think.
fistandantilus4.0
I've noticed that too, that it isn't overly powerful, but more of an update.
Originally when SR was made, everything was land line, because cellphones were D&D's only. That's certainly changed, so now the 2064 world has to upgrade too.
Besides, didn't it say it was on average onlt around 300 I/O is SoE?
I think it kind of makes up for the security rigger change over. Gives you a reason to deck again!
Just my opinion though.
Kagetenshi
Not overly powerful?!? It's supposed to equal high-speed hardwired access!

~J
fistandantilus4.0
So how is that different from a portable temp sat link?

Sorry, not trying to hash out an arguement you've already been through. just working out some of the kinks w. deckers in my head.
Kagetenshi
1) Nontrivial TNs to connect to the satellite network unless you have a fixed dish.

2) Halving of Matrix Reaction.

3) Requires a large dish even at the smallest portable size.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
Dish doesn't have to be that large. And there is the security tally, although most of the sats are pretty easy to hack (a lot easier than they should be IMO). But I'd forgotten about the halving response lag. Good point.

Now deckers can hack rigged security,
albeit at a big disadvantage. With an encephalon (limited multi-tasking) and a VCR, would there be anyway to take out a sec rigger (say, two datajacks), and still hack the system with a deck while maintaining control of the system?
Kagetenshi
Yikes! I got my rules confused. Satellite is only -2 to Matrix Reaction. Still significant, but not nearly so bad.

IIRC, the smallest portable dish is about a meter across when set up, which is nontrivial.

~J
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 11 2005, 02:15 AM)
Yikes! I got my rules confused. Satellite is only -2 to Matrix Reaction. Still significant, but not nearly so bad.

IIRC, the smallest portable dish is about a meter across when set up, which is nontrivial.

~J

It's actually half a meter across, according to the Cannon Companion p 55. Standard dishes are half a meter across, large dishes are 1 meter across, and fixed-base stations are 2 meters across. The setup/tear down temporary dishes aren't listed as any size at all (the one with spray foam and webbing). Half a meter is still non-trivial, but maybe a little less so (it's not almost as big as a dwarf, in other words. smile.gif ). About the size of a computer flatscreen monitor, probably. They don't say any bonus or penalty for using a larger/smaller dish... anyone know where those rules are at?
Necro Tech
Matrix pg.35

Bigger dishes are much easier to connect with.

Statistically its almost impossible for a decker to beat a sec rigger on a ccss network but he can tie them up practically forever with a trauma dampner and a decent karma pool. The rigger can do nothing else while fighting, like his job, allowing the team those precious moments to wreak havoc or run like hell.

Played the same decker for about 2 years and still the most usefull member in the party.
fistandantilus4.0
I think dish size just makes it easier to link up.

Now w/ a satellite link, it's also very difficult to trace the user. I'd imagine it would be easier with the cell link, since we can nowadays find a person to within 1 meter. Nice little balance there. Maybe a little faster (as in no lag, although slower I/O), but they can TRACE YOU! RUN AWAY!

Speaking of which, wonder how it works in a moving vehicle?
Necro Tech
It is impossible to trace someone through a satellite. The trace programs auto fail.

The only one who can trace a cell link is the company. Matrix Pg.117. Trace programs can't do this.

The flip side is to use a cell link you have to hack the provider which is usually red through a slow connection that is susceptible to jamming and signal loss. Its rarely worth it.
fistandantilus4.0
So you lose total anonymity for partial, and pci kup some of that lag time, lsoe a bit of I/O. Not a bad trade.

At least there are some people out there that still care about deckers.

Getting schooled on some magic basics on another thread right now too. Apparetnly not a good night for me.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
It is impossible to trace someone through a satellite. The trace programs auto fail.

They don't get your physical location, but all the other effects of a successful trace still apply.
Matrix p 34-35:
QUOTE
While trace programs can locate the satellite to which a character is linked, they cannot pinpoint the user’s physical location, making physical response to the Matrix intrusion impossible. The effects of a successful trace apply (see p. 104).


The two effects that are relevant are IC Targeting (they get a -1 to target number) and Tally Acceleration (add +1 to ALL security tally increases).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
It is impossible to trace someone through a satellite. The trace programs auto fail.

False. They trace you just fine. They just can't get past the satellite cluster you used to access.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
So what's the point of the triangulate utility?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
So what's the point of the triangulate utility?

Finding a cellphone in a crowd, mostly.
fistandantilus4.0
That's it. I quit. Going back to read the books again.

Done in by my own sig
hahnsoo
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Mar 11 2005, 02:58 AM)
Getting schooled on some magic basics on another thread right now too. Apparetnly not a good night for me.

Cheer up. We all have those days (or nights, as the case may be). Some people have GMs who plays loose and fast with the rules without establishing clear house rules, so for those folks it can get pretty chaotic. I wouldn't let a couple of unclear details deter your enjoyment of the game.
Necro Tech
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Necro Tech @ Mar 11 2005, 02:45 AM)
It is impossible to trace someone through a satellite. The trace programs auto fail.

False. They trace you just fine. They just can't get past the satellite cluster you used to access.

~J

Unless you live on the satellite, that isn't you. As that is the number one concern of any decker being traced, that can't trace YOU. In comparison to gunners tracking your meat, the penalties for a successful trace are trivial.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
In comparison to gunners tracking your meat, the penalties for a successful trace are trivial.

I wouldn't say trivial. The Tally Acceleration REALLY puts a crimp on your timeline as far as doing what you need to do. It pretty much ensures that you need to get out of there ASAP, before a passive alert is triggered.
Kagetenshi
It's still far and away worse than an "auto fail". On high-security systems it could in fact be just as bad.

~J
Edward
How do you manage to start as a riger/decker.

My Decker started out with a 300k deck and 300k in programs 300k in cyber and 100k in other.

My rigger started out with 250k deck, 550k vehicles a VCR and a bit of other.

Trying to build a starting character that has the equipment for both is going to be very difficult.

As to satellite links and trace programmes I understood the trace would return “logged on to satellite XXXX,XXX, ground station somewhere on this portion of the earths surface (approximately 1/8th of surface) effects in the matrix of having been traced still apply they just cant send out a teem to kill your meat.

Edward
fistandantilus4.0
[Edit]
fistandantilus4.0
It's a lot easier if your GM is generous enough to let your wirte your own programs and/or build your own deck pregame, assuming you have the skills. Otherwise, you kind of have to grow into it, and take priority A resources.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Edward)
How do you manage to start as a riger/decker.

The best way, in my experience, is to start as a Rigger with Computers 6 and, if you have the left-over cash, a good coding utility, and then acquire the deck and programs in-game.

~J
fistandantilus4.0
Or buy skill wires and a driver to save some on skill points. But that's pretty expensive, on both cash and essence.
hahnsoo
A drone rigger can easily get a full stable of cheap drones for less than 100k that serves most of his/her purposes. If you are looking for fast cars and air support, though, it's going to cost you out the nose.
fistandantilus4.0
If you're going that way, definitely buy the drones in Char creation. Street index sucks, and doesn't apply to a lot of vehicles.

Same thing with programs. If you're not going to have the time or skills to write them, buy them before hand. prog rating 10+ is SI 3. Get a computer skill of 10, and the connected edge (for selling), and you might as well retire though.
mfb
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
The only one who can trace a cell link is the company. Matrix Pg.117. Trace programs can't do this.

regular commcalls, yes. a matrix connection is, for whatever reason, different. Matrix page 34 has the rules for tracing cellular matrix links; the long and short of it is, you can only trace them to their cell tower. once the sec decker's logged into the tower, though, he can run a Triangulate operation to locate the transmitter's current physical location.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
It's a lot easier if your GM is generous enough to let your wirte your own programs and/or build your own deck pregame, assuming you have the skills. Otherwise, you kind of have to grow into it, and take priority A resources.

Echo that. I spent easily 500,000 nuyen on my deck+programs alone, and still don't have an Attack program, or really anything beyond the basics. Thank God for A priority resources.

Kagetenshi
An Attack program is not only useless but actually counterproductive for starting characters.

~J
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
TH'ats what I've done too. All my deckers are riggers as well. Or rig/deck. Whatever. Maybe because it's just so easy to be a decker (just one core skill). Are they less useful as just deckers to you, say, as opposed to 2nd edition?

Well, a decker is usually more than just a decker, in terms of active skills, for just the reason you mention. I actually like the decker/B&E guy, myself: the guy who physically sleazes his way into a corp and decks them from the inside (possibly even Validating himself an account and logging in through a terminal biggrin.gif). Right now I'm trying to make a decker/mage character, which could be very interesting if I can pull it off without running out of, well, everything. Those 30 build points for the magic just don't come cheap.

There are a few other active skills deckers need or ought to have, like Electronics/Elec B/R, Computer B/R, Ettiquite(Matrix), Channels for otaku. In terms of skills, though,the spot that the decker really gets hurt is knowledge skills. System Familiarity, Program Design, Cyberterminal Design, Street Knowledge (Jackpoint locations, etc), and so forth. My character has 35 knowledge skill points from his Int 7, and I still have only like a sixth of the skills I want, let alone at the levels I want them.
Nikoli
Chipjack, expert driver and knowledge skills OMCs
Eyeless Blond
Nah. Cash goes into your deck. Deckers usually have lots of spare karma though, as they only have one active skill that needs to go beyond 6 (well, except for my mage/decker, but he's unique in a lot of ways.)

More like Encephalon, Mnemonic Enhancer 3, Cerebral Booster.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
An Attack program is not only useless but actually counterproductive for starting characters.

~J

Damn Straight, It's normally to good for you to be able to handle it. And if you do nail it then your tally, goes up, which you can't handle, if you suppres it your tally will go up quicker, which again is something you can't handle at the begining.

As a starting decker, i myself would consentrate on Programming and Info Searches till you get the money/ Karma to up your skills and tools so you can handle it. Also that way you can, get buy with just a small deck and a handfull of programs.

Just an idea i had.
mfb
programming and info searches won't get your team into the facility without being seen. and while attack progs might not be the wisest thing to use against all IC, they're handy against both scout IC and opposing deckers.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (mfb)
programming and info searches won't get your team into the facility without being seen.

Actually in my experience Info Searchs can do just that.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
programming and info searches won't get your team into the facility without being seen.

Attack programs don't do that either. That's Spoof. Pulling out an Attack program unless you're a fairly advanced decker is frequently the best way to trigger some alerts and get the facility notified that something's going down.

If you'd like, I can run the numbers.

~J
hahnsoo
Attack programs are just another tool in the Decker's toolbox. However, they are a tool of last resort, and can cost a Decker his life. Thus, it's not a decision to take lightly, and probably something a starting decker wouldn't want to do on a regular basis.

On the other hand, I can see the justification for having attack programs in creating a character with a natural history who worked for corporate security or other situations where attack programs are commonplace.
Kagetenshi
Attack programs are good for two groups:

1) People whose purposes is to kick people out of a host (running security for a Matrix meet, security decker)

2) People who have a time-sensitive operation or sustained operation such that they cannot log out when the heat comes down AND who have both the skill and the gear such that they can effectively engage in and complete cybercombat without triggering additional alerts or IC.

Once you've got DF 9 or 10 before hacking pool or modes with the skill to back it up, it starts becoming a valid option for the second case. Not before.

~J
mfb
heh. i wasn't actually saying that attack programs will get your team into facilities; that was a seperate issue. i was just saying that info searches and programming won't do the things that teams most often need their deckers to do, such as provide Matrix overwatch. info searches might get the team certain passcodes, but it won't let the decker spoof a camera slave.
Kagetenshi
But unless you've got good gear (more than you can get at chargen), Attack programs won't let you do Matrix overwatch anyway.

~J
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I know they've lost a lot of importance with the security change over to rigged security

What changeover to rigged security? Security riggers have been part of the Shadowrun universe since like the second novel of the Secrets of Power trilogy (and were also mentioned as a possibility in the first core rulebook though there weren't really rules to support them until later).

Anyway, security riggers were never meant to be a total replacement of a building's security. There are several applications, such as identity verification & access control where a Matrix host is simply much more efficient and effective. If a Shadowrun GM has wholely replaced all automated building systems with rigged security, he's doing both the players and his gameworld a big disservice.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
What changeover to rigged security? Security riggers have been part of the Shadowrun universe since like the second novel of the Secrets of Power trilogy (and were also mentioned as a possibility in the first core rulebook though there weren't really rules to support them until later).

Right, but the main changeover was static defenses and sensors directly going to a CCSS rigger (which didn't exist until 2054 or so), rather than being Matrix controlled. In the past, a decker could hop into a slaved camera and spy on a corporation. Newer buildings no longer support this.
mfb
right. i'm not saying attack programs will let you do overwatch. i should have put the stuff about the attack programs in another paragraph; they're not at all related to what i said about doing overwatch.

though i disagree with your assesment of point 2, because it assumes that all security hosts will be of a certain minimum level.
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