One thing I've seen, people have latched onto the fact that the press release blurb uses the term hacker instead of decker, and run with it. I'm wondering if this might be premature. After all, that press release was most likely written for people who only have a passing familiarity with the Shadowrun setting.
I could understand if it was a concious choice to rename the archtype, to drive home the point that this isn't the old Matrix, but I would think it's too soon to tell if they've actually done that based on the info we have so far.
I'm taking a wait and see on this one.
Full Version: Hacker vs Decker Terminology
Maybe they are just trying to intice people with Hacker, since Decker needs some inside explaination. The term "Hacker" markets itself.
Exactly my point. Hacker is a term that evokes a particular mental image in the general populace. Retail Store Owners, Distribution Warehouse Managers, and the general gaming public seem to be the target audience for the press release, and they're most likely not familiar with our jargon.
Obviously it's a marketing thing. That blurb is most likely what's going to be on the back cover of the book. So what's the point of writting "Decker" and "face"? People are gonna go "I can play a guy who's good at cards? And a face? A covert-ops guy maybe? I dunno"
No, see "decker" and "face" are both playing card terms. See, SR4 is ripping off Deadlands and the Hoyle method of demon-summoning/hexslinging, and these must be the class names. 
You know, we wouldn't be very good shadowrunners... I mean players... if we didn't read into the game too much.
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| You know, we wouldn't be very good shadowrunners... I mean players... if we didn't read into the game too much. |
The blurb != the game
Besides, deckers are more analogous with crackers ;7
Perhaps we are reading too much into it. But there´s also the statement from one of our resident freelancers that they will break down the wall between riggers and deckers. What would that do to the terms?
i have no problem with the term "deckers" being made obsolete. to be honest, i've always had to fight replacing it with "hackers" when i talk about them--not out of any real malice towards the word "decker", but because "hacker" seems more natural.
Do you think these new techno wizards will be using decks? Can´t really call them deckers if they don´t use decks, can you? 
i think they'll use decks, yeah. i think, however, that there will be only one type of deck--a multipurpose computer, basically, which you can upgrade with different modules. one module allows you to deck; another allows you to send commands to drones. a third module might allow you to manage communications. maybe other modules i haven't thought of.
or, the deck might come with all those abilities built-in, and you can upgrade them as desired. or... hell, i dunno what else.
or, the deck might come with all those abilities built-in, and you can upgrade them as desired. or... hell, i dunno what else.
The cover art (if indeed it is the cover art) does not seem to have a deck in it. All the previous editions have had a deck somewere on the cover. Maybe its the little thing the dwarf is holding?
I wonder how much Cyberware decks will have shrunk or become very commonplace. I'd guess since "wireless" seems to be the big push, that most devices like that would probably be implanted, and hopefully beta or delta is more common and affordable.
EDIT - If SR4 held to Moore's Law even remotely, then we'd see about a 2.5 times increase in MPCP capabilities for the same amount of physical space, so you could shrink and keep the same MPCP rating....more or less.
EDIT - If SR4 held to Moore's Law even remotely, then we'd see about a 2.5 times increase in MPCP capabilities for the same amount of physical space, so you could shrink and keep the same MPCP rating....more or less.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| No, see "decker" and "face" are both playing card terms. See, SR4 is ripping off Deadlands and the Hoyle method of demon-summoning/hexslinging, and these must be the class names. |
Color me a huckster then!
:fun game:
| QUOTE (mintcar @ Mar 16 2005, 04:24 PM) |
| The cover art (if indeed it is the cover art) does not seem to have a deck in it. All the previous editions have had a deck somewere on the cover. Maybe its the little thing the dwarf is holding? |
If it's anything like how I describe my comm gear in game, then the deck is in an armored backpack, the goggles are essentially "Gargoyle" goggles from Snow Crash with DNI, and the pad is the hub/wireless port to the electronic keypad the drawrf is blasting open.
But this is insane. I've been using tech like this for mundane tasks in-game for like a year. Nice to see SR catching up.
Characters in campaigns I've been involved with have been using cranial cyberdecks in PDA-sized cases, or distributed about worn equipment, rather than actual decks. They use the more expensive cranial-to-ultraportable for on-the-fly decking, and tend to have massively powerful breadboard-style decks as part of vehicles, sort of mobile command stations. It would be good if that's the real and true evolution of the rules, and not just a convenient method of making do with what's available, come Shadowrun 4th Edition. Miniaturization and the proliferation of wireless should result in an evolution of the cyberdeck to the eighth generation.
| QUOTE |
| i have no problem with the term "deckers" being made obsolete. to be honest, i've always had to fight replacing it with "hackers" when i talk about them--not out of any real malice towards the word "decker", but because "hacker" seems more natural |
I useally don't disagree to much with MFB to much. but this one hit me close to home. makeing decker obsolete makes no sense at all to me. hacker in 2060 would be a obsolete term it self. and nothing better desribes what us deck heads to best. we deck. hacker to me is a term for a dreky no good at his job decker. a hack. someone who does unessery damage and useally gets his deck(or his brain) fried. true deckers are not hacks at what the do, and they don't hack up a system if they dont have to. it just raises the security tally and crashes the system(in some cases isnt a bad thing...). To me hacker is a valgur term used for a crappy decker.
bottom line to this rant is
replaceing decker, a term for someone who uses a cyber deck to crack systems and steal the pay data, and all that happy sunshine bull drek. with hacker, out dated term for a tortouis useing dial up code breaker is a insult. In 2060 Deckers are the next evolution of those slow hoop hacks
/ 
Cause really this post is kinda both...my personal opion mixed with that of my char.
eh, yeah. depends on your definition of "hacker". just to clarify, though, i'm not really rooting for "hacker" over the term "decker"--i'm fine with either one.
Carzy Trixster.
Quick bit of info. Originally a 'Hack' was something both subtle and effective. Originally from MIT oddly. A few years ago they built a campus securety car on the roof of a building. It has been called one of their better hacks. Even today, no one knows how they got it there, and where they stole the light bar it used.
I like that multipurpose computer idea, mfb...
I'd see it as a cranial cyberdeck melded with the Vehicle Control Rig. Not really either, but akin to both. Maybe you could plug modules in like using a chipjack, or the basic interface for all of the systsems (com, deck, rig, etc) is the implant, and you can jack in a small computer that allows you to perform better on the specialized stuff. (I.E. jacking into a rigged car to access the rigger possibilities of the implant, jacking into a computer for the non-wireless portions of the decking side of the implant, or a com computer for the com side, etc, etc).
hmmm. It needs developing, but I think that sounds really cool.
I'd see it as a cranial cyberdeck melded with the Vehicle Control Rig. Not really either, but akin to both. Maybe you could plug modules in like using a chipjack, or the basic interface for all of the systsems (com, deck, rig, etc) is the implant, and you can jack in a small computer that allows you to perform better on the specialized stuff. (I.E. jacking into a rigged car to access the rigger possibilities of the implant, jacking into a computer for the non-wireless portions of the decking side of the implant, or a com computer for the com side, etc, etc).
hmmm. It needs developing, but I think that sounds really cool.
Modularity makes the most sense, especially if the lines are going to be blurred. Heck the military has been doing it for years. A board fries, pull it, replace it, ship it back to HQ for refab or junking. Also, just think about how integrated TVs are becoming these days: monitor, ports for data chips (photo memory cards), etc..
Problem.
Decks...Cranial.
Really now, how many people are going to want to plug their brain straight into the electric socket?
That, to me, is why cranial cyberdecks never made sense. The only people who would use them are shadowrunners, for one. Two, most people, simply by having survived the age of 3, are going to be leery about plugging themselves into their computers directly. I mean, it's one of those things you learn: Not to put your finger, tongue, etc. into the electric socket. (Never mind that it took me a few times to figure it out at age 2, but anyway. )
You are now asking people to violate one of those fundamental rules of survival.
Whaa?
Decks...Cranial.
Really now, how many people are going to want to plug their brain straight into the electric socket?
That, to me, is why cranial cyberdecks never made sense. The only people who would use them are shadowrunners, for one. Two, most people, simply by having survived the age of 3, are going to be leery about plugging themselves into their computers directly. I mean, it's one of those things you learn: Not to put your finger, tongue, etc. into the electric socket. (Never mind that it took me a few times to figure it out at age 2, but anyway.
)You are now asking people to violate one of those fundamental rules of survival.
Whaa?
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| (Never mind that it took me a few times to figure it out at age 2, but anyway. ) |
You too. I still have the twitch...
| QUOTE (Penta) |
| Problem. Decks...Cranial. Really now, how many people are going to want to plug their brain straight into the electric socket? That, to me, is why cranial cyberdecks never made sense. The only people who would use them are shadowrunners, for one. Two, most people, simply by having survived the age of 3, are going to be leery about plugging themselves into their computers directly. I mean, it's one of those things you learn: Not to put your finger, tongue, etc. into the electric socket. (Never mind that it took me a few times to figure it out at age 2, but anyway. )You are now asking people to violate one of those fundamental rules of survival. Whaa? |
Yeah, cranial cyberdecks make modularity a real problem. However, you can route data from you cyberarm, so the modularity doesn't have to occur in your brain box.
Nonono, that's not it.
I'm saying...You are PLUGGING YOURSELF INTO THE PHONE LINE. (Or, with wireless matrix, turning yourself into a radio tower.)
That is not something I see anybody doing.
In fact, I see no purpose for implantable cyberdecks except for shadowrunners. Nobody legal would need them.
So how do corps justify making em? How the heck do they explain it to their sales forces?
I'm saying...You are PLUGGING YOURSELF INTO THE PHONE LINE. (Or, with wireless matrix, turning yourself into a radio tower.)
That is not something I see anybody doing.
In fact, I see no purpose for implantable cyberdecks except for shadowrunners. Nobody legal would need them.
So how do corps justify making em? How the heck do they explain it to their sales forces?
You forget that you already plug in directly into machines with DNI-modified equipment, datajacks with cyberterminals etc.
Cranial computers (no, not only decks, but pocket secretaries and cyberterminals in their cranial version) would make sense ... after all, it is a society who is used to cybernetics, where a dozen megacorps make their money with cybernetics ... and where cybernetics are normally more "smooth" and more efficient than their extern counterpart.
Cranial decks would make sense if they are cheap, so that they can be modified on the street.
SYL
Cranial computers (no, not only decks, but pocket secretaries and cyberterminals in their cranial version) would make sense ... after all, it is a society who is used to cybernetics, where a dozen megacorps make their money with cybernetics ... and where cybernetics are normally more "smooth" and more efficient than their extern counterpart.
Cranial decks would make sense if they are cheap, so that they can be modified on the street.
SYL
| QUOTE |
| So how do corps justify making em? How the heck do they explain it to their sales forces? |
That's true for the vast majority of cyberware.
I see DNI pocket computers controlled with a wireless datajack (now that needs a new name!) for the vast majority of the public need.
psh. you might be a technophobe, penta, but that's hardly true of the rest of the world. the vast majority of the populace is willing to jump on whatever tech bandwagon is marketed the best.
it looks like the guy with the pistol could possibly have a deck built into his arm. His left arm seems to have some sort of screen/datapad. He could be the hacker of the group.
I think the word hacker is going to have more implications than we have yet to discover. And my presumptions about some of the terminology describing 4th edition lead me to believe that being a hacker will be as important as having a sam or mage on your team, If not more.
When did they say they were going to update the shadowrun site with a development blog. i'm dying here.
I think the word hacker is going to have more implications than we have yet to discover. And my presumptions about some of the terminology describing 4th edition lead me to believe that being a hacker will be as important as having a sam or mage on your team, If not more.
When did they say they were going to update the shadowrun site with a development blog. i'm dying here.
"soon."
Yah, devblog, devblog, we want a devblog...
| QUOTE (Cult Classic) |
| it looks like the guy with the pistol could possibly have a deck built into his arm. His left arm seems to have some sort of screen/datapad. He could be the hacker of the group. |
I am thinking it's going be like "Neo vision" from the Matrix, where the decker can "see" the Matrix around him. I am guessing "astral perception for deckers".
i don't think it will be anything so hokey (it was cool in Matrix, but "seeing code" in SR would be hokey). i think you'll see certain Matrix icons overlaid on your normal vision. for instance, if you're at a Matrix-enabled crosswalk, you'll see an icon in your vision telling that it's currently not safe to cross. if you're sneaking through a building, you might come across a maglock that can only be accessed over wireless; it will pop up an icon in your field of view that asks for your access code. you enter the code by 'thinking' it into the icon, and the maglock releases.
In the past twenty years there has been lots of fiction with more wireless embedded pervasive computer networks than those in shadowrun 123. Rather than people going into computers as imagined in the 1980's computers reach out into the world.
If they are being inspired by that, and present day reality deckers could morph into something more like magicians mechanically. They access various sorts of wireless links to mess with technological systems. So yea, something like astral perception and more quick tests like casting a spell, defeating a ward, or banishing a spirit to affect such systems.
One large benefit of this could be to reduce the problems with deckers operating in a completely separate world from the rest of the team which make it so much more difficult to keep both engaged in the game.
Will be interesting to see where they do go with it.
If they are being inspired by that, and present day reality deckers could morph into something more like magicians mechanically. They access various sorts of wireless links to mess with technological systems. So yea, something like astral perception and more quick tests like casting a spell, defeating a ward, or banishing a spirit to affect such systems.
One large benefit of this could be to reduce the problems with deckers operating in a completely separate world from the rest of the team which make it so much more difficult to keep both engaged in the game.
Will be interesting to see where they do go with it.
blue planet had a interesting system, every person could get equiped with a small personacomp. and using trodes, implant jack (wired or wireless) and the ability for this comp to comunicate wirelessly with each other and with relay station one could control remotes on the other side of the planet, access the for info and extra computing power, and best of all, one could cover oneself with a avatar that anyone using a comp could see (if you wanted them to).
how about the decker/hacker can see cellphones and radio signals in a way? useing a overlay you can see from what direction is coming by turning you head
maybe you can see icons floating in the air, these being agents and frames that you can send out on missions or use as cover when the ice track you down for an attack? heh, nothing like turning ones head and spoting a renraku samurai icon comeing over the rooftops
but i think its to early to realy say why they have used the term hacker, could just be a marketing person that have translated the decker term so that its easy to pick up whats available to play.
how about the decker/hacker can see cellphones and radio signals in a way? useing a overlay you can see from what direction is coming by turning you head
maybe you can see icons floating in the air, these being agents and frames that you can send out on missions or use as cover when the ice track you down for an attack? heh, nothing like turning ones head and spoting a renraku samurai icon comeing over the rooftops but i think its to early to realy say why they have used the term hacker, could just be a marketing person that have translated the decker term so that its easy to pick up whats available to play.
if you run a Triangulation program, i don't see why not. it shouldn't be automatic, though.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| psh. you might be a technophobe, penta, but that's hardly true of the rest of the world. the vast majority of the populace is willing to jump on whatever tech bandwagon is marketed the best. |
I am hardly a technophobe.
However, there's a difference between buying a new gadget and implanting that new gadget into one's head.
i was just kidding, with the technophobe thing. the point still stands, though; people modify their bodies with technology every day, even now. why would that trend reverse, in the future?
The question is whether implanting more than a mobilejack and maybe an ASIST converter will ever be needed or even desirable to the mass public. If they can interlace reality and digital with just that then I think the answer is no for most. Some people will always go nuts with it, but computers and such need to be replaced so often and with bacteria becoming more resistant to medicine continual surgery doesn't sound so great.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if you run a Triangulation program, i don't see why not. it shouldn't be automatic, though. |
with true triangulation you would get the proper map coordinates. with the proper implant (maybe a directional antenna, most likely rotating. like say a band around your head or something) one would may be able to say from what direction the signal came and could maybe guess at the distance if the signal have a constant and known output strength but you would have to follow the signal to its source to be able to say exactly where it is. rember that they could locate animals with a radio signal before gps
it just took a bit more time so to speak 
still, this require a unique id of some sort, either a digital signature or a seperate channel. two or more sources with the same id and the software may be starting to get confused.
to do true triangulation one have to have two seperate spots that have a directional fix and then hand someone both directions, this person (or software) then plots the location of the spots onto a map and drag a line from each in the direction of the signal. x marks the spot where the signals source is.
simple to do with a cellphone in a city as the density of towers will be high, but to do it out in nature or for a radio signal one will at least need some mobile antennas and some way to relay the signal to a plotter
hmm, 2 or more deckers/hackers playing tag-the-signal anyone?
The thing with wireless traffic is you'd go tracert. Would mean showing your location, but if you got a good node/backbone/router overlay, you'd be able to ping for connections and trace the path. Which actually would rock, as you could set up hardware pingers as decoys to sound out a targets dataflow channels in prep for a hit >;)
That's always been my problem with playing deckers, valid technique in the real world doesn't carry over and I get annoyed :7 Probably healthier that all my entertainment doesn't involve me 'adjusting' systems anyways.
That's always been my problem with playing deckers, valid technique in the real world doesn't carry over and I get annoyed :7 Probably healthier that all my entertainment doesn't involve me 'adjusting' systems anyways.
you, sirrah, need to get the hell off of my wave. there's only room for one visionary genius on this here boogey board!
speaking of visionary genius, has anybody considered replacing the entire Matrix section with a few rounds of Uplink? wouldn't do much for make SR run smoothly, but it's a great excuse for playing Uplink.
speaking of visionary genius, has anybody considered replacing the entire Matrix section with a few rounds of Uplink? wouldn't do much for make SR run smoothly, but it's a great excuse for playing Uplink.
You need an excuse?
well, no.
Uplink?
Uplink. all the fun of being a hacker, none of the hard work or jail time.
Oh FFS...I will never ever touch Uplink again. I will never recover the hours and hours wasted on that <insert some colorful language your mother would not approve of here> game...
(is it sad that the last time I knew where the language rules line was this was DRF?)
And 'visionary genius' is all you man. I'm just a hacker of no importance ;7
(is it sad that the last time I knew where the language rules line was this was DRF?)
And 'visionary genius' is all you man. I'm just a hacker of no importance ;7
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| Uplink. all the fun of being a hacker, none of the hard work or jail time. |
Oh this is a great game, makes me feel all dirty afterwards.
Btw, some great mods and add-ons that let you build custom systems, hack LANS and all sorts of neat things.
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