Full Version: Shapeshifters / Shapechangers
Technically, that's because in SR3, Shapeshifters were introduced as a PC option in the Shadowrun Companion, which was released prior to Man & Machine, which included all the Bioware rules. Before M&M, Bioware didn't actually exist in SR3 (although it previously existed in SR2), so any mention of it in SRC would have been rather inane. I put it down to a poor organizational decision.
True, but then why was it not errata'ed after the release of M&M?
Dunno ... ask Adam! 
Maybe bioware wouldn't be too bad for a 'shifter. They're certianly not going to be able to start out with any, not with only 5K for resources, and what kind of surgery costs are going to be involved if on average, the surgeon has to try and run through the procedure six times before he has can make an incision that doesn't try and close up around the scalpel?
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| By canon, cyberware is impossible, as it is purged from the body even if the surgery is successful. |
Take the rumor on successful implants that keeps shifters from shapechanging and even cyber isn't totally out of the way ...
| QUOTE |
| Implantation surgery is possible, by the book. They have cyberware rejection, not bioware rejection. Nowhere, in any book I've read, does it state that shapeshifters cannot accept bioware implants. |
There are however some problems attached to that idea:
1: Which bioware provider has done the basic research and development type-0 material for shifters? Living tissue that is type-0 for human isn't automatically type-0 for animals in general or shifters in particular.
2: Which bioware provider has done research on cultured bioware for shifters?
While the technology and techniques involved in both points are most likely very close to the ones used for humans, the research still has to be made for shifters in order to determine the special parameters and of course in order to cope with their regeneration and shapechanging abilities.
But for such research you'd need test objects =>
3: Although shifters do not possess human rights in most SR countries and thus could simply be abducted by corps for such research, where would a corp get a significant number of shifters of any given type? Shifters are IIRC born as special individuals within their normal species => Finding enough "test samples" will be quite hard
4: While basic research is quite interesting at times, most corps still want to earn money from it. Since shifters aren't too common and it's doubtful that a majority of those around actually would want such implants (apart from being able to actually pay for them), the overall market for shifter compatible bioware is extremely narrow or possibly next to non existant => Even if such implants exist, they'll have a price tag that's much higher than the ones for human implants. A shifter having such implants would most likely be in a similar situation as a cyberzombie: "Corporate Asset" ... or should I say "Corporate Pet"
5: Implant surgery on shifters is not impossible, but their regeneration will still make it quite hard => You'd always have to bring them to a point where their regeneration fails in order to perform the surgery => That only happens at D level => Any implant for them will involve D level wounds, regardless of bioindex cost
All in all I'd say: Bioware for shifters in theory is fine but doesn't actually exist in numbers that could become relevant for Runner characters other than the usual B&E job where they have to steal some of the data on experiments ...
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| Take the rumor on successful implants that keeps shifters from shapechanging and even cyber isn't totally out of the way ... |
Yeah, I never understood that. Lovely contradicting fluff...
It's not that hard to understand, if you consider that A: as a research subject, the Corp probably didn't care if they had to keep cutting the 'shifter until he _stayed_ cut, and B: it probably wasn't an beneficial piece of 'ware they put in. They might've been trying out new designs for the 'Brain Spike O Pain,' or just continaully shoving 'ware in there to see if anything _stayed_ shoved in. Which would take them to step 2: seeing if they could repeat the process, and then step 3: applying it to other pieces of 'ware. Not at all contradictory, considering that it was speculation on more Corp black projects.
SR Comp. states that all cyberware is rejected from the shapeshifter's body. Going by that, anything Evil Corp X implanted would be ejected. They would never get to step 2.
If one piece of information in the book says that cyberware cannot stay in a shifter's body, and another says that it can, I'd call that contradictory.
If one piece of information in the book says that cyberware cannot stay in a shifter's body, and another says that it can, I'd call that contradictory.
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what "contradictory" means. SRComp (the only rules we've got) doesn't say "most" cyberware, or "some" cyberware, or even "normal" cyberware. It says all.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| SR Comp. states that all cyberware is rejected from the shapeshifter's body. Going by that, anything Evil Corp X implanted would be ejected. They would never get to step 2. If one piece of information in the book says that cyberware cannot stay in a shifter's body, and another says that it can, I'd call that contradictory. |
You know what, it also said in the books? That you can never, ever have more than six essence points worth of cyberware.
This is the same thing.
| QUOTE (Sandoval Smith) |
| You know what, it also said in the books? That you can never, ever have more than six essence points worth of cyberware. This is the same thing. |
If it said that you cannot have more than six points, and then, in the next few sentences, that you can have more than six points, then it would be the same thing.
I think his point is that, in later books, Cyberzombies can have more than 6 Essence Points worth of cyberware. That is the contradiction.
I just don't get why you're having so much trouble comprehending the situation.
Rule statement: Shapeshifters reject all cyber.
Fluff statement: Corps are doing black op experiments to implant 'shifters with cyber. They might have succeeded.
What's so hard to understand?
Rule statement: Shapeshifters reject all cyber.
Fluff statement: Corps are doing black op experiments to implant 'shifters with cyber. They might have succeeded.
What's so hard to understand?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I think his point is that, in later books, Cyberzombies can have more than 6 Essence Points worth of cyberware. That is the contradiction. |
Exactly, in later books. Not two sentences down in the same book.
I understand rules are going to be contradicted, but my point is that it shouldn't be done in the same paragraph.
Sandoval, what I don't get is why they made a rule saying shapeshifters cannot accept cyber implants, ever, when in the next few sentences it refutes that statement.
It's like them saying that teleportation is not possible by magic, and then saying that some corps teleport magically around like mad in the same paragraph.
I think you're getting mixed up on the purpose of some of the Shadowtalk and fluff. Some of it's there to give GMs ideas, other bits are there simply for entertainment purposes. In this case, it's a rumor that some corp has successfully implanted some pretty heinous sounding cyberware. It could be complete BS, it could be true, that's the whole point of being a 'rumor.' The fact that it contradicts the rules doesn't matter. The corps don't know anything about these funky 'rules.' For research purposes, they want to stick cyberware in a 'shifter. From the brief mention, it doesn't sound like anything nice or useful, like a cyber arm or datajack, but something very cruel and unpleasant. This might be developed later on into something in the books, or could just be left hanging for GMs to use as they please. (like a team is sent into a DELTA clinic, and encounters a bear shifter who's been chromed to the gills, driven completly mad by the unending agony, and furthermore has been transformed into some sort of astral sinkhole).
Your point has merit, Sandoval. What you say makes sense, I just think that if PC shapeshifters can't have cyberware, NPC shifters should have the same limitation, and thusly, in my game, the rumor is bogus. In other games, that bit of fluff is in there for those GMs who would like a cybered bear/seal/what have you running around. It would certainly make for an interesting and unusual, if non-canonical encounter. I just can't help but believe all the cool rumors in the books, I guess.
Fluff and Shadowtalk are the ultimate example of YMMV. The actual line is, "Particularly sadistic rumor-mongers occasionally suggest that un-named governments have found a way to restrict crimanl shapeshifters to their human forms by implanting cyberware into their human bodies in especially damaging ways." One, that's a completly unconfirmed rumor, and two, it suggests that this isn't intergrated cyberware. It's something like cutting them open, searing the wound until it doesn't heal, and then shoving in a kink bomb or something.
Right, the point of the fluff isn't to give the GM an idea for an Ultimate NPC or an excuse to allow PC Shapehifters to get cybered. The point is to give the GM an idea about how he can horribly torture Shapeshifter PCs.
As for surgery, there are always weapon foci scalpels. I wonder if they'd add their force to the biotech roll.
As for surgery, there are always weapon foci scalpels. I wonder if they'd add their force to the biotech roll.
I think that same question was brought up a little while ago. I believe that the consensus was since any deadly wound caused by a weapon focus causes them to make an essence test or die (and if they succeed, then they get to try a regenerate test) and surgery is automatically deadly damage, a scalpel weapong foci is just going to get you dead 'shifters fast.
No, it would just get non-regenerating 'Shifters. Just as any metahuman doesn't necessarily actually die when he receives a Deadly Wound due to surgery, Shapeshifters wouldn't either. They just would have to heal from it normally (or with magical assistance).
In my humble and honest opinion, no character is too powerfull for a player to play, as long as it is balanced with a fair ammount of flaws, disabilities, and constraints.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.