I don't recall being insulting, or using a phrase even remotely similar to that.

somehow i get this feeling like the devs won't waste their time with creating a conversion section themselves...once playtesting ends, there will be enough time before SR4's release that one of the playtesters, who will know enough about the system, could do a write-up on how-to convert your character if said PT was asked nicely (i.e. compensated) enough....and remember, there were conversion rules in SR3, so the SR4 conversion section can simply slide on into it's spot in the book.

let's not forget:

1) the section about converting sourcebooks...we can take that out and save 2 pages right there
2) this rule (SR3 pg. 323):

"For elf, dwarf, ork, and troll characters, divide thier Karma Pool by 2 (round down, minimum of 1). The result is the converted character's Karma Pool. The difference between their old and new Karma Pool is added to their Good Karma, and may be spent as the player wishes, per the SR3 rules."

now how would we ever have known that the devs would want us to do that w/o a conversion guide?

just some M.R.E.s for thought...

jinx...you owe me a soda...you can pay up at the con

That's been my stance from the get-go. "A few pages."

Where did I ever make it sound like we need a whole chapter of the book devoted to it, we were going to rise up and burn the developers if we didn't get page after page of rich, precise, conversion information, or anything like that? I don't think "a few pages" (later amended to "a couple") is all that big a deal, especially when you consider they did it in SR3 just fine, so it's not like it's some radical new idea I'm pioneering, here.

Stop blowing my request out of proportion and making it sound like something unreasonable. I'm talking about two pages. A single sheet, front and back. I think that would do just fine. I'll give you four cents if I see you at Gencon, to make up to you the price of that part of the book.

"A few pages" that I'd rather see be used for useful material, not a one-shot ordeal to satisfy a small population of players who, even then, will only "need" it for an incredibly short amount of time.

again, i would like to point out bullet-point number 2 in my previous post...with a very different gaming system, you never know what more besides attributes and skills may need to be changed on an existing PC. SR2 to SR3 wasn't a very big leap, and even it had one thing to change when updating a PC to the new rules that couldn't have been guessed by looking at the rules in the chargen section - or anyother section besides a conversion section for that matter

i think that, with as many changes to the system as they appear to be making, a conversion section is warranted.

I understand what Critias is upset about. That doesn't mean I automatically have to agree with his point of view though. A Conversion Guide would be of limited value to current players (it would only be necessary for a short period of time after the initial release), and have absolutely no relevance to newcomers to the game. As such, in my opinion this sort of thing would be best served by putting on the official web site.

If you feel like you're being insulted in a thread in violation of the ToS, REPORT IT. I don't have time to read every thread so I miss things unless they're pointed out to me. As far as the censorship gripe is concerned, as I posted in the thread in question, feel free to bring it up in the Bug Reports forum and we can discuss it at length.

I don't think it's the personal expense he's concerned over, but rather the opprotunity cost. Inserting those two pages on character conversion (or for that matter any pages concerned with updating old sourcebooks for use in the new edition as was in the SR3 sourcebook) are pages that have limited marginal utility. After the first month of existence or so they're not useful, and can easily be scrapped in favor of a couple cent reduction in production costs (saving Fanpro money), or in other rules with more longevity (like initiation rules, or a short section on Edges and Flaws, whatever). The point is, the vast majority of people will not need or use those rules, so they can be much more easily scrapped in favor of more money for Fanpro, more money for us, or more useful rules.

Unless you want to pay a nickel to each and every person who buys the core book.

sure...never use that mission book but want to now...oh drek, there's 15 NPC's to update to SR4...good thing i have my handy conversion table in the back of my book.

hey, i agree that it would be well served on the site and not in the book.....but i know how i have a tendancy to delete files off my PC if i think i don't need 'em anymore...and as soon as i thought i didn't need the converter anymore and deleted it, sure enough i'd find a use for it.

just my 2 - i really don't care myself so long as they make some kind of coverter

It was damaged when FASA released it, and likely SR4 will be damaged as well (after all nothing is perfect). Sure, they could simply continue to duck tape it together until we have a million books and no one has any idea where anything is. I don't know how many times I've answered the question about "what's channeling, where can I find it?" and similar.

Er, no, what you're being told by FanPro is, "Hey, we're going to finish up SR3 and make it a playable as possible with the rules we started with. And then, for those that want to, we've developed the world and rules into a new system that should feel more or less familiar with some changes and streamlined rules. These should be more accessible to new players and help everybody in the long run." It's us that's telling you the rules are broken.

I'm sure that's why the freelancers are constantly asking for opinions. I'm sure that's why polls show a majority of the current fan base wanting a new edition. But then again, I'm pretty sure they will have a conversion guide - just hopefully not it the books.

And you know this...how, exactly? Since it hasn't been discussed anywhere except, maybe, here. And yes, before you ask, I have read this entire thread.

Where the hell do you get off assuming that we, the freelancers who are working on this thing, don't care about the existing fan base?

How? I don't Know, as in a fact - I know is in a guess. rememeber, my stand on all of this is that is is purely about money - and not about the game. It's just not cost effective to put in a couple of pages that will see limited use to a few people.

Where do I get off assuming?

I'm allowed to assume all I want. I'm also allowed to post those assumptions here in the course of these 'discussions'. It's why the SR4 forums were started. So we could discuss the change - with what limited info we had. Did FanPro not think that we'd make assumptions? Guesses? Be irritated? Wonder at their motives? Worry about what they will do to our favorite game?


And I feel that they don't care becuase they are doing it. That's how I feel, and there is not much you can do or say about it. Sorry if how I feel offends you.

Well, here's my feedback.

Is it my fault you are offended? Or that you feel the need to bust our humps becuase you have some inside information?
No. It's not. You have inside info. Great. Well the fact that you can't say anything should keep you out of these discussions. You're probably toeing the line of your NDA....

I think Fanpro knew *exactly* that there would be lots of people with misgivings about the coming new edition. This is why they kept it so tightly under wraps, and are now coming out with a devblog to explain (hopefully) what the changes will be and why they were made. Please at least attempt to be patient with them, and stop second-guessing their motives when you don't really have any clue what they're thinking yet.

See, here's the real problem: you just don't like even the idea of a new edition. You've gotten into your "safe zone" with SR3 and are uneasy about the prospect of anyone messing with the core foundation of the rules, no matter how flawed, convoluted, and essentially incomplete they've been proved to be over the past several years. This uneasiness has led you to conclude that it's going to suck, really for no good reason other than you're scared of change. And that's why people here are going to object to your blanket statements about SR4 sucking and spreading FUD around all over the place; you're basing it all, not on any actual concrete data, but your own fear.

I'm sorry if the above sounded harsh or in any way like flamebait, btw, but if you read your own posts you'll know it to be true.

one man's "feedback" is another man's "making stuff up as you go along, and then getting mad at the writers/playtetsters for what you've made up, and then getting snippy with them when they call you on it". different strokes for different folks, i guess.

Well then I gues you're reading in to it what you want.

I'm not afraid of change. SR has been changing, growing and evolving since it was published - both with and without the core rules re-editioning.

They could very easily rewrite the core matrix rules without re-editioning the book. They could do that with any rule. Hell they even could have written the change in grounding rules into one of the event books. "ZGrounding use to wrok, and now it doesn't becuase....." instead of it just doesn't work anymore. Stupid. And unimagninative.

No, this isn't about fear. Or even anger. It's all irritation. And to be honest it's not just fanpro - it's the entire industry. Most of the companies have it stuck in their head that it is now an "Industry Standard" change and completly rewrite the rules every few years. Now it's happening to my favorite game, and it just ittitates the hell out of me.

I still haven't seen any proof that rules are "broken". Sure plenty are imperfect, but that is true with every game - every system. There is plenty Opinion that the rules need help. But that's just the opinion of a small section of the entire fan base that takes the time to post here at DS.

ANd no, I won't take offense to anything you say here. As long as you continue to be civil.


Yeah, they could very easily write a new, great system. A system I'd even like. But it's not necessary. There are lot's of great game systems out there. I've played and liked SR since it was published. I wouldn't have played it just becuase the setting was cool. I grew to like the rules as well.

So they can re-write all the rules and release a new rulebook (that you still have to purchase to get those new rules), but as long as they don't come out and say it's a new edition, you're happy?

Perverse.

That so reminds me of how White Wolf handled their "Revised" Second Editions of Vampire, Werewolf and Mage.

Oh, we're not putting out a new edition of Vampire... it's just, well, it was the first time we'd written a Second Edition to one of our World of Darkness games, and we've matured as game designers writing the Second Editions to the 4 games that came after it. We've learned a lot since then, and we just want to bring our flagship game up to the level of quality that you've come to expect from us. We don't anticipate having to do this for any of our other game lines as they're already the standard we want to bring Vampire up to meet.

18 months later...

Here, Have a "Revised" Second Edition of Werewolf. Mage will be getting its "Revised" Second Edition in about a year.

It's no wonder they had to do an entire metaplot hard-reboot for the 4th Edition versions of the WoD. If you're going to be making major alterations to the mechanics, at least have the decency to change edition numbers. At least WotC had a smidgen of good sense when they decided to call theirs 3.5 instead of Revised 3rd.