Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: A playtester's point of view of SR4
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
otaku mike
I'm Mikael Brodu, Writer, mapmaker and playtester for Shadowrun since my first stunt in Shadow of Europe.
After reading so many threads from people concerned about the future of SR, in particular about SR4, and so many questions directed to the people in the know like me, I felt the urge to reply something. You'll probably not be fully satisfied with the answer, but I think you guys deserve something more than a complete radio silence.

SR4 has been in the works for some time now. I just learnt about it only a couple of days before the public announcement. It was a very well guarded secret, and only a handful of freelancers and playtesters knew about it (though many freelancers suspected something was going on when we read what System Failure would be about).
I'm not privy to the developpers' discussion group, so I don't know the latest developments in the design of the rules. What I've read so far are only the drafts that have been given to the playtesters.
Of course, I can't say anything about the rules. But I can tell you 2 important things: first, the press release about streamlining and integrating the rules is not a vain promise, the rules really are better in my opinion; secondly, the rules are not set in stone yet, they're still subject to change through playtesting, so even if I decided to breach my NDA, you'd have no guarantee that the things I could tell you now are going to make it into the final rulebook.

This second point is very important for you to understand. SR4 is still an ongoing process, though in an advanced stage, of writing and playtesting.
Please don't complain about it before you actually read it. I can assure you that many of the issues I've seen raised on this forum are being addressed, while most of the others became moot points due to rules overhaul at a higher level.
Please also understand that it's useless to ask questions like "how much is it going to cost?" or "what are the new rules?" or "how the new Matrix works?" at this point. We can't answer because of many reasons, the first being the NDA, but also simply because we still don't have definitive answers to offer or because it's too early.

What you can do is post ideas and suggestions. And I've seen there are already a lot of them posted. Freelancers don't post too often, and will probably post even less about SR4, as it tends to foster strong emotional responses from the fans, and every word we post has the potential to be interpreted in the wrong way (especially mine, as a non native speaker/writer). We don't post much, but many of us read the forums. I'd wager that many rule changes coming in SR4 have been at least partly initiated by comments/complaints on Dumpshock.

Trust us to make SR4 as good as it deserves to be. If you liked the latest releases, you should know by now that the game is in good and capable hands. Be assured that we love the game just as much as you do, and we don't want to screw it.
Crimsondude 2.0
I would like to specifically single out Wireknight's ideas for you to consider and pass around if you like them. They are some of the best ideas I've seen for SR in a long time, and I think that upon inspection you and the others might agree.
mintcar
Very nice of you to give some kind of response, even though it didnīt say much. A bit of reasuring words never hurt in a situation like this.
craigpierce
QUOTE (mintcar)
Very nice of you to give some kind of response, even though it didnīt say much. A bit of reasuring words never hurt in a situation like this.

i thank you as well...when i tried on the yahoo forum to get anyone 'in-the-know' to tell me even a little more about what's going on, i didn't get much response...

all i really wanted to know is that you guys are looking at what we all have to say.
Lady Anaka
People are looking, do look, and have been looking. Writers and developers just don't tell you about it, in large part because doing so pretty much voids any useful impartial observer mojo they have on their side. The other reason, of course, is that no matter how good a single idea is, if it doesn't mesh well with the whole, it won't be used. Suggestions are surely welcome, though.

Nikoli
The most reassuring thing is that the ruleset isn't set in stone yet.

That gives me hope that some of the things that get suggested here might help make for a better game.
Blackout
Being that I work for a gaming company I greatly appreciate the fact that mike took the time to even post up on the new SR4 and I look forward to seeing it first hand. To me Fanpro has done great job with Shadowrun and they have my full trust in keeping with the ways. This year GenCon will be hard to wait for with a great release like SR4. Good luck to everyone that is helping out with the new upgrades.
Critias
Sort of on topic here (and hopefully, Mike, you can at least tell us about this) -- are there any big exciting plans about the release itself yet? A big hooplah about it at Gencon, I mean? Are there gonna be staff-run games featuring the SR4 rules, playtest stuff set up at the vendor's booth, seminars/talks given by developers or playtesters, a big party, anything like that?

Or is it just gonna be all, "Hey, I just remembered reading something six months ago at DS. The SR4 book is in that booth over there. I'll go buy it," or something?
Blackout
A release party would be a blast!
Critias
S'what I'm talkin' about. I think any/all of the above would be great.

I'd love to run through a game or two with a developer or playtester running it for me to get a grip on the new rules. I'd dig a big party (D&D got one last year!), even if it's a semi-official affair that's just a bunch of Shadowrun geeks hanging out flipping through their new books and occasionally shouting "Ooh, ooh, check out page 212! And pass the peanuts!" I think some sort of seminar/talk from the dev team would be a great chance for some of us, a Q & A session basically, to get all our hot topics ironed out and to have someone go over the big changes with us.

I mean, I know I'm gonna be at Gencon. I know SR 4 is gonna be at Gencon. I know it'd be cool if it was a big deal at Gencon, like it deserves to be. In the d20 boom-or-bust world we're dealing with in the last five years or so, Shadowrun's remained a staple of my RPG diet from the first time I thumbed through it in, like, '91. It's got admirable longevity and (obviously) a fairly strong (or at least fanatical) following. We're gonna be at the world's biggest/best geek and gaming Con. Let's ham it up a little, and get our baby the spotlight it deserves.

And I doubt I'm the only one thinkin' that way.
SirBedevere
Yes, thanks for posting Mike. One thing that I would be interested in, is how backwards compatible SR4 will be with SR3 particularly vehicles. I've designed several vehicles/drones using Rigger 3. Will I have to completely redesign them or will I just have to tweak them a bit?

The big question is: how many books will we need to buy before we get a SR4 character as detailed as SR3? question.gif
Cray74
Well, all told, SR4 seems to be having an easier time than CBT's upcoming Jihad storyline.

That's had several years with no immediate information, just pictures of what the outcome will be (via the click base MWDA game), and the fans have been in arms over the partial glimpses of the Jihad.

It looks like FanPro learned from the Jihad experience and is keeping SR4 more "open" with the development log.

Ol' Scratch
Hopefully, they didn't concern themselves at all with backwards-compability. That's a horrible crutch to have when working to create a brandnew system from scratch, and one I'd rather not see at all... especially considering that it's only useful for the first few months of people moving on to the new edition.

Keep your backgrounds, descriptions, and other fluff write-ups and just rebuild them from the ground up using the new rules. Those are what most people actually care about anyway, as anyone can throw together a bunch of stats. You'll be happier (and more consistant with the new rules) in the long run that way, too.

I'll be extremely disappointed if even a single page is wasted on that sort of thing, as it was in the 2nd and 3rd edition sourcebooks. Totally useless pages that could have been used for something better.
Critias
I disagree completely. I can't think of any reason they shouldn't put a few pages in there for converting over existing characters to the new system.
Fortune
I agree with Doc Funk. The new rules system doesn't need to be hampered by trying to force compatability with all the previous mechanics. It would be counter-productive.

Those people that truly need such help in adapting their characters would be better served with a page or two on shadowrunrpg.
mfb
i think char conversion rules are okay, but i also think that compatibility should not be an issue when they're forming the SR4 rules. the char conversion rules should be added on at the end, once the rules are finished, rather than being considered during the process of creation.

regardless, even if there are conversion rules, i'm probably going to just rebuild all my chars from the ground up. i hate fixing things; burning them down and building over them is much easier, for me.
GunnerJ
Just put char-conversion on the web page for free and not in the main book.
Pistons
So far as GenCon hoopla for SR4 is concerned:

* There are plans in the works for demo games.
* There's been a "What's Up With Shadowrun" seminar every year, so likely this year will be largely devoted to SR4.
* As for parties... dunno. I'm sure Rob's got some ideas, but because we're focusing on writing and playtesting at this time, they're probably tucked away in the back of his head somewhere for now. smile.gif
* Stay tuned to the website for any further plans and updates.

I'm tentatively planning on being at GC this year, and I am definitely going to be at Origins, so it's entirely possible I'd run or take part in a game. We'll see.
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb)
regardless, even if there are conversion rules, i'm probably going to just rebuild all my chars from the ground up. i hate fixing things; burning them down and building over them is much easier, for me.


Honestly, I don't see why anyone would do it any other way.

QUOTE (Pistons)
There's been a "What's Up With Shadowrun" seminar every year, so likely this year will be largely devoted to SR4.


Is there any chance of it being taped, or at least a transcript made available for those of us that, for whatever reason, just can't attend?
otaku mike
Thanks for thanking me guys. Unfortunately, as I said in my intitial message, I won't discuss rules, even backward compatibility, because that would still involve giving info on SR4 rules in an indirect way. I'm truly sorry. I hope you can understand my position.
As Pistons said, stay tuned to the official website (or Dumpshock, as it seems every new bit of info is relayed here in less than the legendary nanosecond smile.gif )
Nikoli
Well that whole unconnected in any way to the Official site thing and all....
Pistons
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Pistons)
There's been a "What's Up With Shadowrun" seminar every year, so likely this year will be largely devoted to SR4.


Is there any chance of it being taped, or at least a transcript made available for those of us that, for whatever reason, just can't attend?

No idea. Rob's never taped it, and I don't think Mike did before him -- if anyone did, it was fans. I don't have any equipment or inclination to, sorry, but perhaps someone else who's going will.
Crimsondude 2.0
Hmm, Podcasting Gencon...
Adam
I taped it a couple years, and someone did last year, but I'm not sure what happened to it.
Fortune
I knew that at least one year was taped and made available. It probably wasn't an 'official' endeavor though. None-the-less, with a subject of this scale, it might be worth considering.

Adam: What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you think this is something that could be arranged, and maybe hosted on the official site?
Crimsondude 2.0
It was recorded last year? I must find this recording.

I remember when Adam recorded them around 2001/02. Those were really cool.

If I have a laptop by then I'd definitely try to record it--assuming I go to Gencon. :looks around for TUS:
Tal
QUOTE (GunnerJ)
Just put char-conversion on the web page for free and not in the main book.

What's the point of that? You'd only need the char conversion rules if you were actually playing SR4, so it'd make more sense to put it into the book, wouldn't it?
Eyeless Blond
I'd rather save the pages of the SR4 book for, you know, SR4 rules, and leave the SR3 legacy material to supplemtals.
GunnerJ
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I'd rather save the pages of the SR4 book for, you know, SR4 rules, and leave the SR3 legacy material to supplemtals.

Precicely.
Tal
Okay, if it came down to more new materiel or having the conversion guide, I'd take the new materiel every time. But still, adding in an additional page or two for the conversion shouldn't cause too much trouble, should it?
Fortune
What is it that you feel you would need help converting? Assuming that SR4 still uses Attributes and Skills (I think it's a safe assumption), then they should pretty much correspond. Cyberware will either be available in equivalent form, or not. In either case, it wouldn't be hard to convert. Same can be said for Bioware, Magic, and whatever else you might name.

Worst comes to worst, just remake the character under the new rules and spend an equivalent amount of Karma (or whatever passes for Karma) in the appropriate areas to make the character as close as possible to the original.
Adam
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
I remember when Adam recorded them arouns 2001/02. Those were really cool.

Thanks.

I remember seeing the news about some audio recordings of some seminars at GTS from 2003, and I briefly thought "Hey, that's a cool idea ... wait, I did that years ago." wink.gif

Podcasting this year's seminar is an interesting idea ... it may be too interesting to pass up.
otaku mike
what is "podcasting"?
Digital Heroin
I need to stop saying I'm going to see about doing some freelancing, and actually try... damn my feeble mind and stupid schedule...

Edit: I also need to stop posting off topic. Any video or feed from a con would be boss, considering my lack of ability to get to any con. Wait, where is it at?
Critias
QUOTE (Fortune)
What is it that you feel you would need help converting? Assuming that SR4 still uses Attributes and Skills (I think it's a safe assumption), then they should pretty much correspond.

I don't think it's a safe assumption at all. What leads you to beleive it is?
Fortune
That the game will still use Skills and Attributes? What makes you think it won't? Note that I did not state that they would be ised in the exact same manner as SR3 though.
Adam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 23 2005, 06:24 AM)
What is it that you feel you would need help converting? Assuming that SR4 still uses Attributes and Skills (I think it's a safe assumption), then they should pretty much correspond. Cyberware will either be available in equivalent form, or not. In either case, it wouldn't be hard to convert. Same can be said for Bioware, Magic, and whatever else you might name.

Worst comes to worst, just remake the character under the new rules and spend an equivalent amount of Karma (or whatever passes for Karma) in the appropriate areas to make the character as close as possible to the original.

Excatly. In reality you don't need any pages to do any conversion that may or may not be needed. Guesstimate, aproximate or just close yours eyes and stab the "lists" with your finger.

Any "Characters with Wired Reflexes 2 should change that to Generic Enhanced Speed Boost A with option 3" is just a pointless waste of time and effort on the part of the developers/ designers. Im sure anyone with a half a brain cell would be able to choose what was more apropreate if/when they choose to convert their characters.

Personally i'll go with MFB's rebuild from the ground up angle.
Critias
You guys seem awful upset at the prospect of a two-page write up with some suggestion conversion rules. You keep making statements like "if you need the help..." or "anyone with half a brain cell could..."

But you know what? You have no idea how similar or different the new rules are going to be. You have no idea what karma is going to be like, what the skills and attributes will be like, what cyberware or bioware or even nuyen will be like. We've all got no way to know how similar or different the system will be -- and no idea at all how hard or easy it will be to convert a character, or even how hard or easy it will be to make a new character.

And, dependant upon those factors, I really don't see how wanting a little official guideline from the game developers makes some of us stupid. Maybe we play in a setting without a normal GM/player ratio, and in that setting we want to make sure people's characters all convert over fairly and in the same fashion. Maybe it'd be nice to have some official rules for it, to make it easier for everyone. Maybe it'd be cool if we knew exactly what the numbers meant, instead of "guessing" or "approximating," so that the whole process could go smoothly for everyone (and so one player wouldn't be rounding up for his characters, while another rounded down, for instance).

I like my games to be fair, and to follow rules. Sorry if that makes me so fucking braindead to you.

And if the best way to do it is to rebuild from the ground up, fine. But what if karma works differently? What if they have a whole new reward scale in place, where costs are wholly different for advancement and your average run nets you 15 or 20 karma instead of 4 or 5? How do you convert over 250+ karma characters if you don't know how much that 250+ karma is worth in the new setting? And why is it such a horrible fucking idea for the dev team to throw in a page or two to help us with that?
Arethusa
Critias, to be fair, considering the issues raised with production costs before, if it came down to it, most people here (myself included) would take a goddamn index and some professional design and publication for once over a conversion guide. I don't personally feel any need for one, and I'd prefer to just do things with a straight rebuild or simple translating (without mechanics), but I can see, to a degree, why some people (like you) would prefer some rules for it. But, moreover, I think I see a larger issue of priorities.
Crimsondude 2.0
It's two pages in a book which will probably run around 300 pages long. Two pages isn't going to break the bank for the production team. Twenty, OTOH, might. But we're not asking for 20. We're asking for a friggin' deuce.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Adam)
Podcasting this year's seminar is an interesting idea ... it may be too interesting to pass up.

Indeed.

Like I said, depending on a great deal of circumstances, I'm ATM thinking of everything from podcasting to recording it on video using a PowerMac and an iSight.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
It's two pages in a book which will probably run around 300 pages long. Two pages isn't going to break the bank for the production team. Twenty, OTOH, might. But we're not asking for 20. We're asking for a friggin' deuce.

Hey, I'm not beating anyone to death over it. I'm not a huge fan of the idea, but I'm not really opposed to it— unless, as I said, it's two pages of conversion rules or two pages of indices. Then, it's a pretty clear decision.

But, you're right; fairly unlikely to get to that in any realistic scenario.
Critias
My point is that if the changes are drastic enough the development team feels a few pages of conversion guidelines is a good idea, what's it gonna kill? It's always easy to go "aargh, those two pages could have been full of Initiation rules instead," or "damn Critias, these two pages were originally slated for advanced vehicle design rules," or "if only the dev team hadn't read that stupid thread, these pages were going to be freshly printed cash!" or whatever.

But, I mean, if the developers end up thinking we need conversion rules, if they end up thinking it'd be convenient if those rules were in the rulebook instead of somewhere on the intraweb (which, much like the FAQs and sometimes even Erratas, many of you seem to think makes something unofficial by default), what does it hurt? I don't see how having those rules in there and all the other cool stuff that should be in there is a bad thing.
Cain
QUOTE
But you know what? You have no idea how similar or different the new rules are going to be. You have no idea what karma is going to be like, what the skills and attributes will be like, what cyberware or bioware or even nuyen will be like. We've all got no way to know how similar or different the system will be -- and no idea at all how hard or easy it will be to convert a character, or even how hard or easy it will be to make a new character.

I have a very good idea. I was around for the changeover from 1st to 2nd, and for 2nd to 3rd. The basic skills and attribute mechanics were left unchanged. In fact, the only real change in skills was that one skill got broken up, and this clunky invention called the "skill web" was removed in favor of a simpler system of defaulting.

When you're revising a game system, you tend to stick with what works. Many of the rules in Shadowrun have survived from edition to edition; I don't see that changing anytime soon. The past changes are a good indication of how future changes will go.
Critias
That's what some of us think, and some of us want, yes. But we don't know it, do we? We don't know if they'll stick to a 1-6 for unaugmented stuff, if they'll change to a 1-10, or even a 3-18. We like to think we know what's going on with a game we all like, but we don't.

And I'd like to think the game dev's can feel for us if it does change more than we're like it to, and give us a hand with swapping stuff over to the new system. S'all I'm sayin'. But, obviously, Shockwave's ported over so many characters to SR4 that he finds it easy enough he can insult the intelligence of anyone who might want to see actual rules posted -- so listen to him, not me.
Fortune
I'm just not quite sure what your objection is to having the Conversion Guide (if any) posted online. Why are you getting so worked up about this, when it is likely to be one of the easier things to resolve?
Critias
I don't particularly care for being insulted for not wanting it on-line. I don't feel remarkably strongly either way -- whether they're in the book or on the web sight -- but I don't see how someone not wanting it in the book gives them the right to claim anyone who wants easy access to conversion rules hasn't got "half a brain cell" to figure out whatever changes they're throwing our way. I'm more pissed about people's fucking attitudes about it than I am their stances, at this point.

I don't care about backwards compatability. I don't care if old adventures can't be used (I haven't finished a published adventure since about '92). I don't care about old NPC's stats being updated, etc, etc. I care about my characters, and the characters of the people I play with, all being updated the same to the new system (whatever that new system might entail). If the rules are on-line, fine, the rules are on-line. But I'd prefer it if they were easily available and given the stamp of officiality by being included in the main rulebook. I don't think those pages would be "wasted."

Look at the flack some people give FAQs and Erratas just 'cause they're on-line instead of "in print." If people do the same to conversion rules, and feel the same about those conversion rules, it'll bug me. Because I'll be updating my character one way, they'll be updating theirs another, and someone's going to end up being wrong, and cheating (whether accidentally or on purpose), games get screwed up, power levels get skewed, blah blah blah.

Why can't the index be on-line, instead? *shrug* Rhetorical question, and the answer is just "because I'd rather see it in the rulebook." All we're doing is sharing opinions, here. Mine isn't any more "right" than yours, we're just saying what we think, and what we'd like to see.
Blackout
Fortune, it gives the kiddies something to talk about, but in reality no matter how much a system changes you can always carry a character over with some creative thinking. Now here is what i have to say.

GenCon is 4 days, we can learn the book or enough of it to run it in one. I would be more than willing to run something with SR4 if everyone is up for it.
Critias
And that's what I mean. Anyone that wants to use rules instead of "creative thinking" (IE: "everyone do what they want for character conversion") is a "kiddie." Fuck that.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012