I've been thinking about the whole up-and-coming SR4 and it dawned on me about how this is going to be FanPro's first shot at creating a new rules set. Have they created any new RPG systems or just maintained existing ones like SR? I don't know if any of the original FASA developers are even around or where consulted for SR4, so this could be a very different product (with more than the names changed to protect the innocent).

What I am hoping for simply this: That they've (FanPro) looked at what has made SR successful and addressed many of the issues that are still outstanding rather than the simple "reboot" and start over approach. I have a sinking feeling more than just the Matrix are getting a complete overhaul and am still trying to comes to terms with losing the whole traditional "decker".

Would be interesting to see what resources FanPro tapped to make SR4 a reality. One of my biggest fears is they take the opprotunity to "try something new" for sake of giving us something new to chew on instead of building on a great legacy of gaming.

It's all paranoid speculation for now, I actually can't wait until the new version comes out so I can either celebrate: Not having to buy more rules books, or about how kick-ass it will be.

<shrug> One thing about SR is that, through 2 new editions, they've kept enough of the system recognizable and compatible so that older players can convert and keep playing. The actual system has been changed (in my opinion improved) considerably, but the basic tenents are still there. I'll wager the new edition will be similiar: change everything they can change, with enough familiar for us old-timers to convert without busting a vein.

Actually, it's more like "Evolution." It's not a reboot of the universe, it's not starting over from scratch. Everything is advancing, yes, but it's the same world and the same story.

But would it still be classified as radical and revolutionary, indeed worthy of a complete overhaul?

-Siege

Ya know, as long as it isn't duplicating the d20 system, I'm willing to give it the benefit of doubt.

If it is...I've already commented on the need for a "pulling the trigger" smiley.

-Siege

PG's comment on another thread that the new system rates a 6 on a scale from 1 (identical) to 10 (completely unrecognizable) is... well not troubling, but ominous.

It's not like they pulled a Laura Croft on this ("I woke up this morning and I just hated everything."). There has been a long process in developing this new system, no doubt. We have to trust that the writers and rulemakers have done their homework, and tried to preseve the integrity of the game. If that wasn't their intent, no doubt FanPro would scrap SR altogether and develop something different.

PS: I just had to go with the cheesy movie references.

it's Lara, you non-geek.

and it's worth pointing out that the "mature" FASA run brought us catgirls and marsupial pouches. personally, until i hear different, i'm willing to accept goodman at his word when he says that the system hasn't mutated into something horrible.

"I woke up this morning and I just hated everything"? What the hell? Tomb Riader written by Camus?

Just because Edios can't spell, doesn't make me a non-geek, eh.

Arethusa: Movie reference, after the special ops raid on her mansion.

Well, FanPro has produced the Dark Eye, though I don't know anything about it. It's rather recent.

It's just that I'm very used to, and attatched to, the dice roll vs. TN to generate successes system. I see threads of info about 2D6 rolls for attributes, and while it doesn't sound bad, it sounds like kind of a big leap, and makes me a bit anxious.

I know he was joking, but there was some speculation that because it was the second time someone "in the know" brought up the 2D6 thing, there may be a grain of truth to it. But it's not worth speculating over until concrete details emerge.

Many of them aren;t exactly fresh off the farm, either...

Rob Boyle was Assistant Editor on the original SR3. A fair number of freelancers and playtesters involved now were involved with SR3 to some degree.

There are a lot of new faces, but there is still some experience there to temper that.

Bull

Welcome back, K.

Out of curiosity, Bull, how many of the SR4 staff were around for SR2 or 1? Or are otherwise old-timers, like you or me or Paolo. (There's only a handful of people on this forum who started playing SR1, let alone started in the 80's. What percentage of the new team have that kind of history with Shadowrun?)

That's good to hear. And as you and surely a lot of the other playtesters and writers are around at dumpshock, you know what we, the fans, are complaining about and waht we want re-designt. And waht we don't want. Like d20.

I echo Patrick's comments. I'm one of those new faces among the freelancer crew who came aboard half-way through SR3 (actually its been three years and quite a few books now, I wonder when I'll qualify as an old-timer?), but I've been playing since 1990 (it took SR1 a few months to work its way to my corner of the world) and I've been an active contributor to the community and DSF since it called itself the Deep Resonance Forums and wore funky Christmas tree colors.

And you're doing imo a fine job

We can't be more forthcoming with any information. Not possible. We signed NDAs when we started freelancing or playtesting and should we choose to ignore those, we're basically out on our asses. Myself, I enjoy the writing thing, so I'll be sticking to the NDA.

There's a lot of valid concerns out there and they are definitely heard by the writers and playtesters and taken into the discussions. There's also a lot of speculation. Some is fairly accurate, some is wildly off-base. And we can't say which is which.

Bah c'mon Pat, don't get all bent, I just having some fun at your expense.

It reminds me Christmas as a kid when you want to know what you are getting but no one is telling. That and many of us have been through games that used to be good and got screwed up along the way.

No, it's not that I don't trust you or think nothing of you. Quite the contrary. But I don't know why you seem angered and surprised by all the wild conjecture thrown about. Would seem a natural reaction given that no effort is being made to quash the more negative rumors (unless they contain at least some truth).

It's really about whether SR4 will generate a negative spin or whether judicious use of key tidbits about the upcoming changes can be used to generate positive spin and anticipation. Refusing to comment is almost the same as admitting it's true.

One question: I understand the use of NDA. Why the secrecy? I admit I'm a bit ignorant to the game of RL corporate intrigue but wouldn't anything potentially valuable (corporate knowledge, trade secrets and whatnot) already be covered under a copyright or patent already?

Possibly not. Copyright doesn't apply to books, as I understand it. Nor Patents.

Ideas are not protected by copyright. Text is. But SR4 is not a book yet, it is still ideas. So it's not protected. So if I were to post here "Here is what we plan to do with SR4...", that's not protected. Someone else could run with that idea and use it.

But there's also more to it than that. SR4 isn't done yet. Mechanics are still being discussed, tested, and changed. So, if someone were to come out and say "This is how we're doing it" and then two days later, after testing, it's changed, well, then people come back and complain that it's not what they were told.

You (the devs and freelancers) are asking for a lot of trust while giving us precious little to go on. Now I am not saying I don't trust you, cause I do. But you ask for trust right after you announce for 4th ed, which by the way, you have been denying working on for over a year.

I am sure there are reasons that you denied any plans for a 4th ed. I am sure they are valid and practical. But you still 'lied' to the community when asked about it. So you might want to consider that when you are asking for peoples trust.

I know you all love the game, I know you all think you know whats best for it. But the only difference between you an me is that you work for Fanpro and I don't. So your version of 'love' out ways mine. While I have liked a lot of the the books FanPro has put out (Sota and MJLBB) I think the direction you have taken on some of them is way different then I would have gone.

So bear in mind that all the players on DSF feel the way I do, we all love the game, we all think we know whats best, and we all don't want it to get ruined. So of course given very little info we are going to speculate and argue about every thing.

Here's a novel idea, folks.

Instead of complaining and arguing about things we know nothing about (the 4th edition), let's channel that energy into complaining and arguing about things we know everything about - the 3rd edition!

That way, the devs get to hear about everything that is broken in the current rules (as if they didn't know themselves) and most importantly, things that aren't broken, things that work, things that are "keepers" that we'd all hate to see gone.

Because devs read this forum, right? And then maybe our thoughts about the game as it is now will steer you folks in the right direction?

Okay, here is a question that might not break the NDA to answer:

Did this SR4 thing break way too early? I know somebody posted on dumpshock about a cover for SR4 and the next day it appears on the website with precious little about what the changes would be (and I'm honestly not trying to be critical).

I'm wondering if this thing got out of Fanpro's hands by accident. I would have expected some kind of announcement of SR4 that included more details about the rule system, if nothing more to prevent the kind of wild speculation that has been happening on dumpshock.

P.S. I do totally agree that the longer you let people speculate without giving them some kind of info (if nothing more than a "hey you're way off base!") the more paranoid everyone gets. Not that you can do anything about it Patrick (and the rest of the freelance crew), but I do wish the powers that be in FanPro would give y'all a little more leeway to at least tell us when we're totally wrong.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

There's no way it could have been kept a secret after unveiling the news at GAMA. Logically speaking, the announcement to the community at large had to be planned to coincide with that.