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fistandantilus4.0
pg. 80 M&M - compatability
"Synaptic Accelerator
This bioware is not compatible with Wired Reflexes or Move-by-Wire systems."

SR FAQ
"Can a character have both a synaptic accelerator and boosted reflexes and gain the bonuses from both? What about a synaptic accelerator and reaction enhancers?
Yes to both. "

Ok, so they can be damn fast. Scary fast ("Scary tree, I'm afraid!").

So with wired reflexes, a character often reacts before he's even aware sometimes. Such as pulling a gun and shooting if someone enters a room loudly, and they're a bit edgy. Hence the reflex trigger.

Move-by-Wire - constant state of seizure. Always ready to go. Doesn't really state over reacting like with wired reflexes. Side effets though, not fully explored (maybe they'll know by SR4)

What about this mess of relfexes though? If you've got reaction enhancements 6, Boosted reflexes3, and synaptic accelerator 2, that's what.... +8 +5d6 to initiative. No way to turn it off. "Boosted reflexes cannot be removed once installed".

So does this guy REALLY flip out when there's a loud bang? Is he totally kosher? Where's the downside? BRef 3 -2.8E (I think, no book handy)
Rc Enh6 - 1.8 E
Syn Acc2 - Bio 1.0

Still plenty of room for other ware, especially with higher grades.

So what would some of the side effects be? Downsides?
toturi
Ermm, I think this has been done before. The only flip-out type drawback he'd have is the same as someone with just Boosted of the same level, because Synaptic is natural.
Fortune
toturi has it right. Only Initiative bonuses from Cyberwear make a character twitchy. Reaction bonuses, or anything gained from Bioware do not factor into this effect.
DrJest
I did all the math on the synaptic accelerator + boosted combo a while back during a discussion on MBW and whether it's underpowered for its costs in cash and essence. To be honest, looking at the sums, I could seriously see even Wired Reflexes falling out of favour in comparison, given the cheaper essence and nuyen costs, at least amongst the shadow community. That the synaptic accelerator doesn't figure towards the "twitchiness" problem only increases that likelihood.
Edward
You can do that yes but you could still have the reaction enhancers with the wired reflexes resulting in natural reaction+12+4d6 average = +28

Your combination gave natural reaction +8+5d6 average = +25.5

Wired reflexes provide a slightly better bonus, you decide wether t is worth eth essence.

Edward
toturi
With a higher Reaction, you get a better at Surprise Tests too. Just something to bear in mind.
DrJest
WR 3 + RE 6 = 6.80 Essence. You would have to have minimum alpha-grade cyberware to fit it all in, skyrocketing the nuyyen cost even further (to a total of nuyen.gif 1720000). For the relatively tiny edge in advantage, it really isn't worth it imho, but of course YMMV
Edward
It just depends how much shooting first matters to you.

Of cause if you really want to go first you can stack MBW 4 with reaction enhancers 6 enhanced articulation cerebral booster 2 muscle toner 4 and starting int 6 & qui 8 (elf exceptional attribute qui).

If memory serves that is initiative of 25+5d6 min 30 av 42.5 max 55.

And then another 3 dice can be had from a drug cocktail if you donít mind the risks.

And somehow you need to fit it all in a body without killing it

Edward
Capt. Dave
Unfortunately, MBW won't stack with any other reaction or initiative enhancing bio or cyberware, so the reaction enhancements are out.

EDIT: Technically, since enhanced articulation gives a +1 to reaction, it'd be out, too.
DrJest
I'd probably let enhanced articualtion go; it seems to fit so well with the MBW.
Charon
Yeah, I don't like that combination of boosted and synaptic.

I houserule that you can just use one initiative enhancer. I think they balance well on their but that the Syn + boosted is just too cost efficient and screws with game balance. I have yet to see a canon NPC stated with Synaptic + Boosted, as a matter of fact.

Wired Reflex : Baseline
MBW : Best, most expensive
Boosted : Cheapest
Synaptic : Least cost efficient, Hardest to detect

There, they all have their role and I have all seen them in use in my various campaign. I don't like to see two of them combined to upset that balance. Boosted + Synaptic is IMO too cost efficient.

fistandantilus4.0
Thanks for the feed back.

I did bother to do a quick search before posting, but didn't find specifically what I was looking for. 'Preciate it.
toturi
QUOTE (Charon)
Yeah, I don't like that combination of boosted and synaptic.

I houserule that you can just use one initiative enhancer. I think they balance well on their but that the Syn + boosted is just too cost efficient and screws with game balance. I have yet to see a canon NPC stated with Synaptic + Boosted, as a matter of fact.

Wired Reflex : Baseline
MBW : Best, most expensive
Boosted : Cheapest
Synaptic : Least cost efficient, Hardest to detect

There, they all have their role and I have all seen them in use in my various campaign. I don't like to see two of them combined to upset that balance. Boosted + Synaptic is IMO too cost efficient.

The combination of Synaptic and Boosted is by-the-book legal, but you already knew that. I don't think that it is too cost efficient. You get what you pay for.
Mortax
QUOTE
Unfortunately, MBW won't stack with any other reaction or initiative enhancing bio or cyberware, so the reaction enhancements are out.



It states in Cybertech that you can get a lvl 1 synaptic accell for 4 times the caost with you're MBW as long as you get them installed at the same time.

Expensive, but gives a large bonus. Cyberzombies might be the only ones to use it.

As to the side effects of MBW, they are also listed in detail in cybertech. Basically, have a high wilpower and natural body or you are going to end up relating to the world on the level of the family dog.
Charon
Well, let's compare :

Synaptic Accelerator 2 + bossted 3

Cost : 290 000 nuyen.gif
Essence + BE : 3.8
Initiative : 4D6+2 (Avg : 16)

Wired 3

Cost : 500 000 nuyen.gif
Essence : 5
Initiative : 3D6+6 (Avg : 16.5)

Using Wired 3 as baseline, Synaptic 2 + Bossted 3 is :

42% cheaper moneywise
24% cheaper essencewise
3% slower

Wired 3 costs 30 303 nuyen.gif per average point of initiative it provides and .3 essence for the same.

Boosted 3 + Synaptic 2 costs 18 205 nuyen.gif per average point of initiative it provides and .24 essence for the same.

A final way to look at it is that Wired 3 cost an additional 210 000 nuyen.gif and 1.2 in essence to give you on average an additional .5 in initiative. (Edit) On the upside, Wired 3 do not increase the TN of disease and healing by 1.

Still, I think Synaptic + Boosted is much too cost efficient.
toturi
Factoring in Bioware drawbacks and differences in Stress damage for bioware and cyber, it is not too cost (edit)efficient.
Edward
also when considering wether or not it fits in your body with eth rest of your augmentations wired reflexes can be graded (and starting at 5 points your going to want to grade a wired 3) but the synaptic accelerator can not and the boosted reflexes can not be removed so you cant replace it with a better grade latter.

That has to be worth something in the final evaluation

Edward
Charon
QUOTE (toturi)
Factoring in Bioware drawbacks and differences in Stress damage for bioware and cyber, it is not too cost inefficient.

You probably means it's not too cost efficient, right?

I can't presume of how much bioware someone will get. If that's the only point of bioware he has, the draw back are not that severe. If he has more, you must only consider the marginal difference.

For example, if the PC intended to buy 1 point worth of bioware anyway beyond the synaptic accelrator, the disadvantage need not even be considered in the synpatic cost.

Anway, I have edited my previous post. I still think it's way too cost efficient and that most people would chose that option if aware of it.
Charon
QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 27 2005, 12:23 AM)
also when considering wether or not it fits in your body with eth rest of your augmentations wired reflexes can be graded (and starting at 5 points your going to want to grade a wired 3) but the synaptic accelerator can not and the boosted reflexes can not be removed so you cant replace it with a better grade latter.

That has to be worth something in the final evaluation

Edward

Not really, IMO.

In my example, both system are bought at max rating so ugradeability is a minor concern.

Boosted can in fact be bought Alpha right from the start and the total cost is still less than a wired 3 so you can do that if you want.

The odds of you wanting to upgrade further to Beta or Delta are slim because the cost is hardly worth the trade even if you could. I've never seen it in my campaign so the value of upgradability at that point is slim to none.
Tarantula
You can get boosted removed through genetech, but its costly.
Edward
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 27 2005, 12:23 AM)
also when considering wether or not it fits in your body with eth rest of your augmentations wired reflexes can be graded (and starting at 5 points your going to want to grade a wired 3) but the synaptic accelerator can not and the boosted reflexes can not be removed so you cant replace it with a better grade latter.

That has to be worth something in the final evaluation

Edward

Not really, IMO.

In my example, both system are bought at max rating so ugradeability is a minor concern.

Boosted can in fact be bought Alpha right from the start and the total cost is still less than a wired 3 so you can do that if you want.

The odds of you wanting to upgrade further to Beta or Delta are slim because the cost is hardly worth the trade even if you could. I've never seen it in my campaign so the value of upgradability at that point is slim to none.

It will depend on the life of your character. In a long running game a samy will want to increase his capabilities including having more bits of cyber wear, this usually means replacing existing cyber wear with the same item at a better grade. I have seen this done several times after a well paying run, although not yet with something as expensive as wired reflexes 3 or to a grade better than Alfa if the game lasts long enough it will almost certainly happen.

The fact that you can not do this with ether a synaptic accelerator or boosted reflexes (without the very expensive gen tech) is a signifigent disadvantage. Probably not worth the huge difference in cost that currently stands but worth something.

Edward
Fortune
With the addition of a Reflex Trigger, you can turn Wired Reflexes off and on. You can't do that with Boosted (or the Synaptic Accelerator, but that's immaterial). Therefore a person with Boosted is always twitchy, which is an additional drawback.
Glyph
That, and the higher Reaction for surprise tests, are the main advantages of wired reflexes. Plus, without the synaptic accelerator, that's another point of Bio that you can stick in there.

The boosted reflexes: 3/synaptic accelerator: 2/reaction enhancer: 6 combo is a pretty good one for speed sammies (perhaps with some muscle toner and/or enhanced articulation added). But never throw that sammie a "surprise birthday party". biggrin.gif
SpasticTeapot
Well, I seem to have goofed on my definition of Improved Reflexes.
However, the problem of PhysAd cyber-munchies still remains. If an adept manages to Geas away a few points of cyberware, he or she could use the bioware/boosted reflexes combination listed above...and still have 5 or 6 points left to pump dice into things like shotgun skill. 12 dice at character creation is a scary thought, if I may say so myself, especially considering that any PhysAd that uses cyberware and guns is going to have a smartlink and/or a scope. And, of course, PhysAds have that nifty ability to do things like negating damage penalties that ordinarily require expensive bioware.

Of course, there's always my solution to this problem: How can a PhysAd with a heck of a lot of cyberware/bioware find someone to intitiate with? According to MITS, physads and other magic users with cyberware are generally shunned away from magical groups unless they have a REALLY good reason for it. (Natural blindness, for example.) Because of the higher karma cost for initiating by one's self, cybermunchies will quickly be left behind by physads with absurdly high magic ratings.
DrJest
Of all the things i want to see dead and buried in SR4, geasing away an adept's magic loss for taking cyber is top of the pile. It should be skinned alive, rolled in salt and thrown into the deepest pits of hell.

Not that I feel strongly about this one or anything wink.gif
fistandantilus4.0
I'll second that



Fortune: That's pretty much what Iwas looking for with this post. Possible draw backs. But there seems to be some differing opinions. Doesn't really state either on the synaptic accelerator or the boosted that they do over-react like with the wires. Is that just your opinion/ rule that it works that way? Do you havea reference? Just trying to gather some more info here either way.

To me it would seem that since every other reaction enhancer really jacks the user up that way, that this should too. just trying to find some solid answers either way.

Fortune
Man & Machine page 45 goes into detail on the effects of Increased Reflexes. Basically, Cybernetic (only) reflex enhancements (extra dice) cause twichiness, and impose a Perception tst with a +1 TN modifier for every 1d6 of enhancements. Failure means that the character reacts instictively in a way that the GM feels appropriate.

A Reflex Trigger (only available for Wired Reflexes) can help to avoid this, but only by shutting off the enhancements until needed.
Critias
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
PhysAds take the cake for most absurdly high speed.

Blah blah blah edges (which anyone, not just Adepts, can take), blah blah blah cyberware and bioware.

I don't think so.

Remember that their Adept abilities don't stack with most anything else in the book, for initiative (unless they've changed that very recently). You can get a +6/+3d6, sure, but there are a half dozen ways for a mundane (or mage, for that matter) to get much, much, higher than that. The only "edge" Adepts really have on trying to be speedmonkeys is that they can pay three power points to just plain go first no matter what.

But an investment of that scale tends to make them a one-trick pony (unless you're in a fairly high karma game, and at the wide end of it)...and without genuine init boosters, they'll still be much shorter on actions than a more mundanely boosted speedmonkey.

Of all the ways to get someone who'll try and go very quickly, Adepts are actually the bottom of the barrel. Their schtick is handy other abilities, and extra dice once they get to act.
psykotisk_overlegen
Wich means that boosted reflexes also cause twitchiness, lvl3 boosted causing as much as lvl 2 wired?
Fortune
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
Wich means that boosted reflexes also cause twitchiness, lvl3 boosted causing as much as lvl 2 wired?

Yep.

As for Adept Powers ... it does state that Initiative boosts don't stack, but I don't recall if it says anything about Reaction boosts. If not, then Reaction Enhancers and Enhanced Articulation will help an Adept.
Critias
Which would still just get him to the same level as a mundane who took Wired 3 instead of the Adept version. The only "swap" is that instead of sinking Essence into the Wired 3 you're sinking Power Points into the Adept version (which can't be improved grade).

Again, except for the one-trick-pony "auto go first" power (Quick Strike, I think it's called?), they really don't have an edge here.
Fortune
That's true. Note that it wasn't me who stated that Adepts are the be-all-and-end-all of Initiative though. I was just trying to clarify the difference between Reaction and Initiative in that case. smile.gif

While it's true that Adept Powers cannot be aquired at a higher Grade, they can be Geased for a 25% savings.

I dislike Geasa for my characters, and can only recall one instance where I actually had a character that used one.

Quick Strike is highly overrated!
psykotisk_overlegen
The adept power improved reflexes states that it can't stack with technological improvements of initiative or reaction. So reaction enhancers are also out.

Edit2: Appearantly my previous comment here was so erroneous that I've simply removed it, simply an effort to bring this back OT.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
The adept power improved reflexes states that it can't stack with technological improvements of initiative or reaction. So reaction enhancers are also out.

Edit: I guess the most horrid initiative would still be the adept with maxed out quickness. Initiated beyond belief for tons of "improved attribute" quickness, mixed up with a move-by-wire and muscle replacement, and muscle toner and cerebral booster. Now this makes a limitless increase in reaction possible (imp. attr. has no cap) but it costs way too much money and karma to be valid for any PC, ever. And yess, in all-delta and cultured this is possible without dropping below 0 essence and staying below the dreaded bio-overstress limit that the essence index is.

Improved attribute and bioware are both considered natural. All natural enhancements cap at the racial max. A human adept with exceptional attribute could have 15 quickness. Base 7, 4 points of bioware and improved attribute in any combonation, and 4 points of muscle replacement.

An elf with exceptional attribute could have 16 points of quickness.


That's very fast, but it still only adds +5 reaction compared to a quickness 6 character.
Fortune
The Attribute Boost Power is not limited to Attribute Maximum though. wink.gif

And Muscle Replacement Cyberware doesn't factor into Reaction.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune)
The Attribute Boost Power is not limited to Attribute Maximum though. wink.gif

No, it has an upper limit, as well. Twice the Racial Modiffied Limit. (SR3 p 159). Its also imcompatable with cyberware and magical enhancments and takes some absurd drain at higher levels.

I had completely forgot about metavarriants, as well. The night one, maxed out with exceptional attributs, improved attribute, and cyber gets 18 points of quicknesses.
With Attribute Boost he gets 18 points if quickness and 9S drain.
Glyph
As far as adepts and geasa go, I don't advocate deliberately screwing people over with geasa, BUT geasa are supposed to be an actual limitation, which they give plenty of examples of. The problem isn't geasa, it's candy-ass GMs who allow cheesy stuff like "My geas is a talisman geas, and my talisman is my set of dikoted cyberspurs." If it's not a real, actual limitation, it shouldn't be a geas.
Critias
*watches the thread wander off topic, now that that can of worms is open*
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 28 2005, 08:37 AM)
No, it has an upper limit, as well. Twice the Racial Modiffied Limit. (SR3 p 159).

The Attribute Maximum is a specific number, based on the Racial Modfied Limit multiplied by 1.5. Attribute Boost is not limited to in any way by that number, but instead is limited to twice the Racial Modified Limit. I fail to see where my statement was incorrect, as I never stated it had 'no upper limit'.
toturi
Use Attribute Boostin conjunction with Bioware.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 28 2005, 08:37 AM)
No, it has an upper limit, as well. Twice the Racial Modiffied Limit. (SR3 p 159).

The Attribute Maximum is a specific number, based on the Racial Modfied Limit multiplied by 1.5. Attribute Boost is not limited to in any way by that number, but instead is limited to twice the Racial Modified Limit. I fail to see where my statement was incorrect, as I never stated it had 'no upper limit'.

It wasn't. I was just responding far too early in the morning. I appologize for the error.
mfb
QUOTE (Fortune)
As for Adept Powers ... it does state that Initiative boosts don't stack, but I don't recall if it says anything about Reaction boosts.

it specifically disallows any other bonuses to both. last sentence of the power.
Fortune
Yeah, I was already corrected on that. I didn't look it up before I posted, as evidenced by my saying "I don't recall" rather than "it doesn't". smile.gif
Cynic project
Okay I had a street sam who had MBW 3, and went damned fast. He would normally get 5 actions a turn. He could get up to 6 actions a turn. He rarely had four actions a turn. Now if he had MBW level 4, he would have had 5 and up to 8 actions a turn.

He was a bad ass muther fucker. But by the time he was this killing machine he had gotten about 200 karma, and even his underware was delta grade.

I just find it funny how few poeple understand the powers and glories of MBW.
SpasticTeapot
Some of us don't like being hyper-spastic all the time. Also, a mage with some powerful electrical mojo can slow you down very,very fast. A physad does not have this problem.
Also, good luck getting through cyberware scanners; you're going to need it.
toturi
How fast was the sam naturally? If he was naturally fast, then the drawbacks of MBW wouldn't be so bad.
BrazilRascal
I don't think the combo breaks the game all that much, with the new rules letting everyone act in each pass. Back when a heavily augmented character was able to act 3 times before the opposition ever got a shot in, it was catastrophic.


Remember, though, that you can't start with cultured bioware, including all neural ware like the accelerator. So it has to be procured during the game, with all the fun of legwork, surgery, street index and other complications you might want to add.

Also, Boosted Reflexes is a one-time thing. Once you put it in, you can never replace it or upgrade it. So in the long run, while the rest of the team is getting those wiz beta-grade toys installed, the early speed-monkey is stuck. Sure, he can wait until it's available...but by then, his added speed won't hurt the game so much.
Fortune
QUOTE (BrazilRascal)
Remember, though, that you can't start with cultured bioware, including all neural ware like the accelerator.

That's a recommendation, not a rule.
QUOTE
Also, Boosted Reflexes is a one-time thing. Once you put it in, you can never replace it or upgrade it.


As mentioned already in this thread, Genetech can be used to remove Boosted Reflexes.
Cain
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Okay I had a street sam who had MBW 3, and went damned fast. He would normally get 5 actions a turn. He could get up to 6 actions a turn. He rarely had four actions a turn. Now if he had MBW level 4, he would have had 5 and up to 8 actions a turn.

He was a bad ass muther fucker. But by the time he was this killing machine he had gotten about 200 karma, and even his underware was delta grade.

I just find it funny how few poeple understand the powers and glories of MBW.

Who needs MBW? I can create a legal starting character with Reaction 30 and 4d6 Init. On average, he'll score 5 actions per turn; at max, he'll score 6. I haven't tried pushing 200 karma into the character yet, but I think he'd get faster.
Critias
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Some of us don't like being hyper-spastic all the time. Also, a mage with some powerful electrical mojo can slow you down very,very fast. A physad does not have this problem.
Also, good luck getting through cyberware scanners; you're going to need it.

First: The rules for cybernetic reaction enhancement causing twitchiness really aren't that bad. Maybe I just play with a higher Willpower sammie than most people, but I never, once, had anything even remotely like a problem because of it (this was with a 20 reaction character, to give you an idea of how augmented he was).

Second: You're harping an awful lot (this is like the second or third post of yours I've noticed very recently) about how electricity screws up cyberware. You're not, according to canon, correct here. It sounds like a particularly brutal house rule, but it also sounds like you have something against mundanes and for magicals (from other posts). I'm not sure if your attitude shaped your game table's rules, or if playing under these rules shaped your attitude: it's one or the other, I think.

Third: Physads really aren't all that, especially when we're all sitting here talking about initiative. It's true, cyberware scanners don't bug them. Whoopty doo. They really aren't very fast. I promise. Their power points are much better spent elsewhere; any sammie who dedicates 5/6ths of his augmentations towards speed will blow out of the water any adept who does the same.

Yes, cyberware scanners are a problem. But the same can be said of packing a smartlink, nevermind Wired or MBW or what-have-you.
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