Full Version: SR4 FAQ, Part Two
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Either that or I'm getting crotchety in my old age  |
It's not as painful as it might at first seem. Welcome.
Because humans get the karma pool? It's not a case where the metatypes are flat-out better than the humans.
~J
~J
I think the complaint is - some of the flavor fades away as riggers/deckers disappear and are replaced by "hackers."
Instead of samurai, mercs, snipers and so on, we use "fighter" as a generic catch-all title which isn't nearly as colorful as specific titles and descriptors.
Just my two bits - the fundamental difference between samurai and mercs is more an exercise in flavor than meaningful difference.
-Siege
Instead of samurai, mercs, snipers and so on, we use "fighter" as a generic catch-all title which isn't nearly as colorful as specific titles and descriptors.
Just my two bits - the fundamental difference between samurai and mercs is more an exercise in flavor than meaningful difference.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Because humans get the karma pool? It's not a case where the metatypes are flat-out better than the humans. |
That is only a nod in favor of balancing humans with metas, and a weak one at that.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Mar 28 2005, 07:18 AM) |
| Q. Will character generation keep the priority system or be point-based? A. It is a point-based system. |
Oh joy, the Awakend are all now screwed.
[Edit]
And I hope to God they just drop the term hacker. It's flat out fucking stupid!
Now why oh why would the developers be balancing some issues and not others?
In campaigns that I have run, if someone wanted to run a non-human, I would allow them to use the Sum-to-Ten system, which makes the human guy rock. Nothing like having ATT, Resources, and Skills at priorities 1,2,2, with race and magic at 5,5.
I'm gonna miss the priority system, for the pure and simple reason that it was so easy to roll up char's with. I mean, if you had a pretty good grasp on your favorite spells/powers/cyber/gear you could roll up a halfway decent guy without even having any rulebooks around. Got me through many a boring watch. I haven't used points much, so that will be kinda new to me.
And, on a personal note, I don't really care what "the book" says, in my campaign, deckers and riggers will live forever.
I'm gonna miss the priority system, for the pure and simple reason that it was so easy to roll up char's with. I mean, if you had a pretty good grasp on your favorite spells/powers/cyber/gear you could roll up a halfway decent guy without even having any rulebooks around. Got me through many a boring watch. I haven't used points much, so that will be kinda new to me.
And, on a personal note, I don't really care what "the book" says, in my campaign, deckers and riggers will live forever.
| QUOTE (Catsnightmare) | ||
Oh joy, the Awakend are all now screwed. |
How so? I fail to see how that works out.
Oops, on that last post, I meant to say, if someone wanted to run a HUMAN. Guess I should have proofread it first
| QUOTE (Patrick Goodman) |
| It's a point-based system, but it's not the point system in the current Shadowrun Companion. Concerns about taking everything at 6 are being addressed. |
This kinda worries me, in that I'm unsure how they can do it without needlessly complicating the basic chargen system. But wait and see, I guess.
You'll also probably want to change this ...
| QUOTE |
| Nothing like having ATT, Resources, and Skills at priorities 1,2,2, with race and magic at 5,5. |
to 0,1,1,4,4!
[edit] But you were calculating backwards anyway!
Race human = 0
Magic none = 0
Then you can have the others at 4, 4, 2 or 4, 3, 3.
[/edit]
But I like Sum-To-15
~J
~J
Can I play a Sum-to-15 character in your next game?
| QUOTE (Patrick Goodman) | ||||
How so? I fail to see how that works out. |
Under the current PBS (Which has been said is not the same as the SR4 one) some people feel awakened characters get the shaft.
Conversely, many people find priority ridiculously generous with metatypes and awakened characters.
I fail to understand either position. I make Awakened characters with the Build Points system. As a comparison, my latest character, under both systems ...
Build Points - 123
Magic - (30)
Attributes - 30 (60)
Skills - 33 (33)
Resources - 5000 (0) or better yet 500 (-5) with 5 more skill points
Race - (0)
Priority
Magic - A
Attributes - B (27) 3 less!
Skills - C (34) 1 more, but see below
Resouces - D 15,000 more, but not really needed, and no option to adjust for more Skill points
Race - E
Build Points - 123
Magic - (30)
Attributes - 30 (60)
Skills - 33 (33)
Resources - 5000 (0) or better yet 500 (-5) with 5 more skill points
Race - (0)
Priority
Magic - A
Attributes - B (27) 3 less!
Skills - C (34) 1 more, but see below
Resouces - D 15,000 more, but not really needed, and no option to adjust for more Skill points
Race - E
The problem generally is with Aspected mages, I think, which some feel aren't worth 25 points (adepts *might* be, though). It's still not an issue though, unless you're trying for high at:
Build Points - 123
Attributes - 30 (60)
Magic - (25)
Skills - 33 (33)
Resources - 20000 (5) or better yet 500 (-5) with 5 more skill points
Race - (0)
Priority
Attributes - A (30)
Magic - B
Skills - C (34) 1 more)
Resouces - D
Race - E
For the second time today I reference this song.
Build Points - 123
Attributes - 30 (60)
Magic - (25)
Skills - 33 (33)
Resources - 20000 (5) or better yet 500 (-5) with 5 more skill points
Race - (0)
Priority
Attributes - A (30)
Magic - B
Skills - C (34) 1 more)
Resouces - D
Race - E
For the second time today I reference this song.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| The problem generally is with Aspected mages, I think, which some feel aren't worth 25 points (adepts *might* be, though). It's still not an issue though, unless you're trying for high at: Build Points - 123 Attributes - 30 (60) Magic - (25) Skills - 33 (33) Resources - 20000 (5) or better yet 500 (-5) with 5 more skill points Race - (0) |
Your Adept could actually get 10 more Skill Points instead of the 20,000
, or 5 more and still take the 5,000 .
Er, right. 
I was trying to parallel your post, and I missed that change.
I was trying to parallel your post, and I missed that change.
As I don't see this started yet...
| QUOTE |
| Q. What is the basic mechanic? A. Basic success tests are made rolling your dice pool against a fixed target number of 5. The target number never changes. So each 5 or 6 that you roll equals a “hit.” Success is determined by the number of hits rolled. More difficult tests require a higher number of hits to succeed. |
... the preceding originating from the FAQ#3 of course.
While I understand the idea of changing the "base target number", I do find the idea of no adjustment (good or bad) to the target number to become a problem waiting to happen. It also is in all truth, IMO, the single largest force of change in all the game mechanics. It basically places the consideration/concept of "Threshold" into every single game mechanic. It also means that quite a few game mechanics/devices have to have been completely rewritten.
1) Smartlink and Balance Augmentor to start with.
2) Centering drops a category of capability (although obviously because modifiers are being dropped entirely I guess).
3) Background Count mechanics are out the window ... does this mean things like Warps/Voids are being readjusted as well?
4) Barriers (spell or mundane) have adjustments made to them.
5) Visibility Mods (Fog, Smoke, Wounds, etc...) are then gone.
6) Okay, Wound Mods are being changed???
After reading and rereading that FAQ statement, I find that this could be a really HUGE change to the game play and thus the game feel. When combined with Note #2 from FAQ#3
While I understand the idea of changing the "base target number", I do find the idea of no adjustment (good or bad) to the target number to become a problem waiting to happen. It also is in all truth, IMO, the single largest force of change in all the game mechanics. It basically places the consideration/concept of "Threshold" into every single game mechanic. It also means that quite a few game mechanics/devices have to have been completely rewritten.
1) Smartlink and Balance Augmentor to start with.
2) Centering drops a category of capability (although obviously because modifiers are being dropped entirely I guess).
3) Background Count mechanics are out the window ... does this mean things like Warps/Voids are being readjusted as well?
4) Barriers (spell or mundane) have adjustments made to them.
5) Visibility Mods (Fog, Smoke, Wounds, etc...) are then gone.
6) Okay, Wound Mods are being changed???
After reading and rereading that FAQ statement, I find that this could be a really HUGE change to the game play and thus the game feel. When combined with Note #2 from FAQ#3
| QUOTE |
| Q. Will SR4 still have Dice Pools? A. Yes, but not in the same sense as SR3. In SR4, any time you make a test, the dice you roll are considered your dice pool. Dice pools consist of skill + attribute, +/- any modifiers. The Dice Pools from SR3–Combat, Hacking, Control, Magic–no longer exist in SR4. |
Basically when combining these two notes, the game changes are I feel trying to remove the concept of what is and is not possible using pure game mechanics as compared to GM/Player Common Sense and/or Gameworld Play. I'm wondering what the modifiers to the "Dice Pool" could be? I mean, this kinda makes me think that anything (most things, everything?) that once was a modifier to a target number could become a modifier to the would be "Dice Pool".
Okay ... for those of you who really like the feel of all those dice to roll ... I guess everyone is about to become potentially happier if I'm even remotely accurate in my guessing. If I'm off in the majority of my thinking, then I believe everyone gets to contend with *NEVER* doing anything truly spectacular in the game anymore depending upon the karma influx of the character(s) in question.
Okay ... for those of you who really like the feel of all those dice to roll ... I guess everyone is about to become potentially happier if I'm even remotely accurate in my guessing. If I'm off in the majority of my thinking, then I believe everyone gets to contend with *NEVER* doing anything truly spectacular in the game anymore depending upon the karma influx of the character(s) in question.
There's plenty of other threads already touching on this. Touching on it, stabbing it, gnawing on it, humping up against it, hugging it close, biting it, you name it. It's been groped significantly.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I fail to understand either position. I make Awakened characters with the Build Points system. As a comparison, my latest character, under both systems ... |
Well, it's helpful to have a list of how many "Build Points" you get under the Priority system:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=7123&st=41
It highly varies, but the best "bang for buck" comes from playing an Adept or Aspected Mage with high resources.
Yeah, I read that thread (and even posted in it ). What you didn't take into account (that I could see) was the option when using the Build Points System to gain 5 additional Build Points by only taking 500 in Resources.
). What you didn't take into account (that I could see) was the option when using the Build Points System to gain 5 additional Build Points by only taking 500 in Resources.
If adjustments are going to be made to the dice pool for situational modifiers I don't see that gameplay will be in any way 'streamlined'. If it's such a big deal remembering the changes to target number, is it going to be less of a big deal to remember how many dice to add/subtract?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Yeah, I read that thread (and even posted in it ). What you didn't take into account (that I could see) was the option when using the Build Points System to gain 5 additional Build Points by only taking 500 in Resources. |
Well, the point was to convert the Priority system directly into Points to see how it matches up. Frankly, if one has to take the lowest dirtcheap level of resources to match up to priority, then Priority is probably superior for that situation. Since they are doing away with Priority, the point is moot, but I can see how some people would be upset at losing the Priority system for constructing magically active guys with lots of resources (can't do that as well under Build Points).
| QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Apr 10 2005, 08:39 AM) |
| Frankly, if one has to take the lowest dirtcheap level of resources to match up to priority, then Priority is probably superior for that situation. |
It isn't a matter of taking cheap Resources to match. See the character I posted above under both systems. Sum-to-Ten also works out better than Priorities in that case. Build Points allows for more fine tuning than Priorities, with its jumps in numbers.
Maybe it's just me, but I rarely make high Resource Awakened character. In my experience, money is the easiest thing to acquire in game.
It's nteresting to note how popular Sum-to-10 is, even though it's mentioned nowhere in 3rd edition at all.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Since they are doing away with Priority, the point is moot, but I can see how some people would be upset at losing the Priority system for constructing magically active guys with lots of resources (can't do that as well under Build Points). |
Aerh... I'm not sure I understand you.
You are saying that some people will rant of the priority system going away, because they can't min-max a point system to the same point ?
I must be dreaming, I must be dreaming, I must be dreaming...
I am a firm believer of the following theory:
For optimal point-based character generation systems, the unit of character-building resource should be identical to the unit of character advancement resource, and should be spent using the same rules.
Ie, characters should be built at chargen using XP or Karma or whatever the name of your "character upgrade resource" is.
This has several advantages. Namely:
1) There are no anomalies concerning some traits being markedly more expensive or cheaper at character generation, compared to buying the same trait in play. This usually results in some choices of initial skill/attribute allocation effectively "wasting" Karma. This problem is something that White Wolf games, and earlier editions of SR, suffer from markedly.
2) Reduced rules bloat, meaning more page count can be dedicated to more interesting things. You don't need to print separate character generation and advancement rules, because they are the same. You just get more points, which are spent at the same marginal costs as you used during character generation.
IMO, these two advantages are compelling, and I don't understand why they aren't immediately fundamental and obvious to any game designer creating a point-based character generation system.
Of course, it is still desirable to have a relatively fast and simple character generation system, but I don't think this has to clash. Also, some things that are acquired at chargen will still not be purchasable with earned Karma, and vice versa. This is fine.
For optimal point-based character generation systems, the unit of character-building resource should be identical to the unit of character advancement resource, and should be spent using the same rules.
Ie, characters should be built at chargen using XP or Karma or whatever the name of your "character upgrade resource" is.
This has several advantages. Namely:
1) There are no anomalies concerning some traits being markedly more expensive or cheaper at character generation, compared to buying the same trait in play. This usually results in some choices of initial skill/attribute allocation effectively "wasting" Karma. This problem is something that White Wolf games, and earlier editions of SR, suffer from markedly.
2) Reduced rules bloat, meaning more page count can be dedicated to more interesting things. You don't need to print separate character generation and advancement rules, because they are the same. You just get more points, which are spent at the same marginal costs as you used during character generation.
IMO, these two advantages are compelling, and I don't understand why they aren't immediately fundamental and obvious to any game designer creating a point-based character generation system.
Of course, it is still desirable to have a relatively fast and simple character generation system, but I don't think this has to clash. Also, some things that are acquired at chargen will still not be purchasable with earned Karma, and vice versa. This is fine.
One other note on character generation: try and unify the game's scales as much as possible. I think it would be an excellent idea to have Contacts rated from 1-6, as most other traits are, instead of 1-3.
Perhaps it would also be good to convert the current multiplicity of initiative boosting cyberware into 6 levels of Wired Reflexes? YMMV, I'm not sure about it myself.
Perhaps it would also be good to convert the current multiplicity of initiative boosting cyberware into 6 levels of Wired Reflexes? YMMV, I'm not sure about it myself.
I think it's difficult to convert boosted reflexes and wired reflexes into one new reflex boosting cyber rating from 1-6. They should keep it the way it is.
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Apr 11 2005, 09:42 PM) |
| I think it's difficult to convert boosted reflexes and wired reflexes into one new reflex boosting cyber rating from 1-6. They should keep it the way it is. |
Hmm. I don't think it would be difficult, considering they're likely to going to rework Initiative so that it uses the game's core mechanic (if they aren't, why not?).
However, I would rue the loss of continuity that such a change implies. Thus, as I've said, I'm not really convinced I would support it, even though I've just suggested it!
| QUOTE (Jérémie) | ||
Aerh... I'm not sure I understand you. You are saying that some people will rant of the priority system going away, because they can't min-max a point system to the same point ? I must be dreaming, I must be dreaming, I must be dreaming... |
Yup. It's not like Shadowrun is some elitist club of uber roleplayers (despite the impression one may get from the Dumpshock forums). It attracts a lot of min-maxers, just like any other RPG.
Hey! I resent that! I can so roleplay my little min-maxed mini-god! 
I disagree that BeCKS is desirable. It massively increases the complexity of chargen, which is more or less the exact opposite of the intention for 4th edition, as far as I can tell.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I disagree that BeCKS is desirable. It massively increases the complexity of chargen, which is more or less the exact opposite of the intention for 4th edition, as far as I can tell. ~J |
While I can see the benefits of making gameplay more simple automatically assuming character generation will be simplified isn't neccesarily a valid assumption. Even Becks 2.0 as maligned as it seems to be is only 3-4 pages currently. Add in some pages for an example character being generated and people can have complex wellrounded characters at start and still have an easy system to play with after creation.
For example look at Silcore which uses a build point system like Becks2.0 currently rather than a 1 point one level system like the shadowrun companion. Even though initially it might require a bit more time to generate characters once you get comfortable with the basic design you can pump out templates that you customize as needed.
If you dislike all the karma being in some big lump sum they could have a system where say x karma is for attributes, y for skills, z for augments etc. That way you have more balanced characters rather than people focusing all thier purchases on attributes etc.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 12 2005, 12:00 AM) |
| I disagree that BeCKS is desirable. It massively increases the complexity of chargen, which is more or less the exact opposite of the intention for 4th edition, as far as I can tell. ~J |
Now, now. Don't go putting words in my mouth, Kagetenshi.
I didn't say that the new character generation system needed to be BeCKs. I said that it should use the same rules as improving your character with experience. Thus, a character build point is worth the same no matter how you spend it. This system also removes the difference between creating a character with more build points versus the same number of build points plus some XP.
If the rules for improving a character with experience are too complicated to use for character generation in this streamlined system, doesn't that imply that they are too complicated full stop? Besides, using a unified character creation/advancement system *is* streamlining, because players and GMs don't need to learn two separate rulesets, and you don't need to print two separate rulesets.
GURPS manages to use an experience-based character generation system very successfully. So does Ironclaw/Jadeclaw (where 1 build point = 5XP, no if or buts). I see no reason why SR4 can't do the same.
BTW, Vuron also makes some very good points.
There's a big difference between doing something in small increments and doing a lot of it in one big chunk. I can't say as I've heard Shadowrun's skill/attribute advancement system called "complex" very often.
With regard to Vuron's point, total number of pages has nothing to do with complexity. Give me a bit and I bet I could outclass any of the available options, complexity-wise, with just one page. BeCKS requires a lot of throwing numbers around and gets nontrivially more complex when you're shifting around both an attribute and the skills linked to that attribute.
~J
With regard to Vuron's point, total number of pages has nothing to do with complexity. Give me a bit and I bet I could outclass any of the available options, complexity-wise, with just one page. BeCKS requires a lot of throwing numbers around and gets nontrivially more complex when you're shifting around both an attribute and the skills linked to that attribute.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 12 2005, 01:49 PM) |
| There's a big difference between doing something in small increments and doing a lot of it in one big chunk. I can't say as I've heard Shadowrun's skill/attribute advancement system called "complex" very often. With regard to Vuron's point, total number of pages has nothing to do with complexity. Give me a bit and I bet I could outclass any of the available options, complexity-wise, with just one page. BeCKS requires a lot of throwing numbers around and gets nontrivially more complex when you're shifting around both an attribute and the skills linked to that attribute. ~J |
Ah. Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. I believe that your issues are: that using SR1-3's advancement paradigm, characters become too hard to fine-tune at chargen using Karma-build, and that it's too hard to calculate the total Karma cost of a given skill or attribute level.
You may well be right. I've never attempted to use BeCKs, myself - my admiration for unified build/advance rules stem from my experience with other games, in particular comparing SR1-3 and White Wolf games versus GURPS and Ironclaw rules. However, you are assuming that SR4 will use the same, or similar, advancement rules to SR1-3.
I believe that I have shown, by example, that unified build/advance rules can and do work. Ironclaw in particular shows that unified build/advance != overly complex character generation.
Given the fact that they do work (and have a number of advantages) I believe that all point-based build systems should, in principle, be unified build/advance rules. Thus, I believe that SR4 should use unified build/advance rules, even if this means changing the current advancement rules to make them more suitable to a unified build/advancement system.
Unified build/advance rules are simply better, for the reasons I have cited above. I think that most roleplayers are willing to spend a fair bit of time in character generation - after all, it's not something that you need to do every session, as opposed to combat resolution. While I agree that complexity is to be avoided, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of time consumption. Besides, given the amount of equipment that most characters wish to purchase and the number of decisions to make in an SR character creation process, I think it very unlikely that SR4 chargen will be "fast".
Disclaimer: I would still like to see diminishing returns in skill and attribute purchases.
I admit, however, that the announced material suggests the developers side with you, Kagetenshi. I don't agree, and I think I have strong arguments on my side, but in the end I don't make the decisions.
I would venture to guess that most of the people using Becks use the NSRCG. I would never sit down and crunch it manually.
I'd rather have a simple generation system so I can focus more on developing the character rather than the stats. Who wants to sit through a math exam to make a character? Worse would be trying to introduce a new player (again without a nifty program).
I'd rather have a simple generation system so I can focus more on developing the character rather than the stats. Who wants to sit through a math exam to make a character? Worse would be trying to introduce a new player (again without a nifty program).
bleagh. doing it manually would suck. even once you learn the progressions (1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, etc.) it'd still take a lot of crunching.
Maybe if i'm having a lot of free time and nothing else to do i would do so manually...? No, that sounds too weird.
| QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern) |
| I am a firm believer of the following theory: For optimal point-based character generation systems, the unit of character-building resource should be identical to the unit of character advancement resource, and should be spent using the same rules. Ie, characters should be built at chargen using XP or Karma or whatever the name of your "character upgrade resource" is. |
You do realize that this would just get people screaming "new World of Darkness!" even more, right?
It's the same thing the nWoD is doing now.
Maybe my group and I are just weird, we use Becks manually 
So do we. Well, I do, anyway. In the past couple of years my group has created about 15-20 characters using BeCKS and BeCKS v2 manually without any help from computers or even calculators (apart from using a mobile phone once or twice when a player doesn't trust my calculations). Once you've done it a few times it becomes very simple. Just doing the numbers wouldn't take more than a few minutes per character if the players knew what they wanted (or indeed even had a character concept ready).
I agree it can take a bit of bookkeeping if you are using alot of optional rules (MA manuvers, lots of merits and flaws, etc) but fundamentally it's like sum to 425 and once you have the basic costs of each level down it's pretty easy to keep a running tally. Further it's exceedingly easy to create experienced characters with it because you can just say okay build with 500 or 600 points and viola it's balanced.
Of course some people might say some of the costs for awakened initial costs aren't quite balanced but that really is a question for playtesting. In my experience characters and NPCs created with Becks tend to be much better rounded characters than priority or even point system designed characters.
Of course some people might say some of the costs for awakened initial costs aren't quite balanced but that really is a question for playtesting. In my experience characters and NPCs created with Becks tend to be much better rounded characters than priority or even point system designed characters.
White Wolf is evil because unlike SR they don't let you take mortars and antipersonnel mines. I always thought that was a little ridiculous, considering that in White Wolf you're supposed to be trying to blow away vampires and werewolves and crap. If I'm going to blow away a vampire, I'll feaking mine the woods around his coffin first before I go toe to toe and attempt to SMG spray him.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| White Wolf is evil because unlike SR they don't let you take mortars and antipersonnel mines. I always thought that was a little ridiculous, considering that in White Wolf you're supposed to be trying to blow away vampires and werewolves and crap. If I'm going to blow away a vampire, I'll feaking mine the woods around his coffin first before I go toe to toe and attempt to SMG spray him. |
Under what version of WoD is it impossible to have various military grade weapons? Granted if you are a werewolf in crinos (or the new name for it) battle form your need for an assault cannon is somewhat limited but mortal vampire hunters are likely going to look for whatever edge they can afford or manage to steal. Granted unless you live in a different neck of the woods than I do currently your access to military grade weaponry and explosives is likely severely limited but your vampire hunter could always be part of some radical anti-government group
When flipping through some friends' Vampire: The Moping and Werewolf: Misdirected Energy booklets, I flipped to the back where they had all the weapons listed. I don't recall seeing anything bigger than submachineguns there.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| When flipping through some friends' Vampire: The Moping and Werewolf: Misdirected Energy booklets, I flipped to the back where they had all the weapons listed. I don't recall seeing anything bigger than submachineguns there. |
Those were the core rulebooks. The Big Stuff (.50 cal machine guns, rocket launchers, and the like) would be listed in other sourcebooks, just like the really big stuff in Shadowrun was relagated to supliments. Ask your friend if they have a copy of Anarch's Cookbook or Combat: The Big Book of Beating Ass (I still love that title).
It's true that WoD's threshold for Big Stuff is lower than SR's (HMGs and Rocket Launchers vs. Mortars, Rail Guns and Ship-to-Ship Naval-Damage-Scale Missiles) but that's not to say that the big stuff wasn't there.
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