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Critias
Because we're creatures of habit, who've been playing this game for more than a decade -- and it's how it's always been. We're upset when any feature of a game we love is changed, especially one as vital to the feel of the game as the basic die mechanic.
Vuron
I've been playing the game since the first hard cover rulebook even using the godawful DNA/DOA that came out a couple weeks later. I'm not saying that it's not worth debating the merits of the new dice mechanic system versus the old one but ranting against it without at least examining the merits of the new system makes most of the people here begin to look like the grognards on Dragonsfoot bitching about how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ruined Basic DnD.
Mieric
QUOTE (Vuron)
I've been playing the game since the first hard cover rulebook even using the godawful DNA/DOA that came out a couple weeks later. I'm not saying that it's not worth debating the merits of the new dice mechanic system versus the old one but ranting against it without at least examining the merits of the new system makes most of the people here begin to look like the grognards on Dragonsfoot bitching about how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ruined Basic DnD.

For some people that change from basic to AD&D did ruin their gaming experience, especially once TSR stopped producing anything for the basic sets.
Vuron
QUOTE (Mieric)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 7 2005, 09:28 AM)
I've been playing the game since the first hard cover rulebook even using the godawful DNA/DOA that came out a couple weeks later. I'm not saying that it's not worth debating the merits of the new dice mechanic system versus the old one but ranting against it without at least examining the merits of the new system makes most of the people here begin to look like the grognards on Dragonsfoot bitching about how Advanced Dungeons and Dragons ruined Basic DnD.

For some people that change from basic to AD&D did ruin their gaming experience, especially once TSR stopped producing anything for the basic sets.

I don't doubt it but do people here really want Dumpshock to be the place where cranky old players go to bitch about how things where so much better in the old days. I'm not saying that 3e is inherently better or worse than basic DnD but that flat out cursing SR4 because the developers have the temerity to redesign the basic mechanics (especially before details are really known) seems to be more than a wee bit reactionary.

"Git off my Lawn you young whippersnappers!"
Mieric
QUOTE (Vuron)
I don't doubt it but do people here really want Dumpshock to be the place where cranky old players go to bitch about how things where so much better in the old days. I'm not saying that 3e is inherently better or worse than basic DnD but that flat out cursing SR4 because the developers have the temerity to redesign the basic mechanics (especially before details are really known) seems to be more than a wee bit reactionary.

"Git off my Lawn you young whippersnappers!"

Well, prior experience with other companies ruining a game someone likes by making massive changes to the mechanics is playing a role here - at least IMO.

While some people will like the changes that SR4 will bring, I view it the same as I view that abomination called 3.5e D&D until its proven otherwise.

Dual Wielding Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Mage/Assassin Drizzt Clones - Ugh, No thanks. I liked the racial restrictions, demi-human level limits, the human-centric design, THAC0, Armor Class deviations by weapon type - and WotC ripped all that out. I don't like feats, BAB, the skill system, CR, or sorcerers.

Yet now, I'm forced to rummage through half-price books stores, online auctions, and garage sales to find 1e and Basic D&D books that may or may not be in useable condition - which really affects my gaming experience (and not in a positive way).

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm thankful that WotC allowed PDFs to be sold on rpgnow.com and svgames.com - too bad the quality on the older items sucks though.

By all means release this new and improved SR4 - but keep in mind your older fans too. Give us some leeway on SR1, SR2, and SR3 material - be it decent and useable PDFs or permission to use the older material on the web - at least then you'll keep me as a fan instead of outright alienating me.

Vuron
I get that people feel like thier enjoyment of the game is likely to be ruined by the new version. It's certainly understandable but each time thier is a significant upgrade of any system (gaming or not) this is always a risk. The key test will of course be whether the new changes ruin it for more people than it draws in. I assume that the developers think it will and are gambling accordingly. Not that there shouldn't be some residual support given for the previous versions of the game (pdfs for OOP material and perhaps giving people an open license to develop new material for the previous version) but that in order to draw in the revenues neccesary to keep FanPro functional and able to afford the SR license they need to look towards generating a constant revenue stream. While some people might like a Shadowrunners guide to SoyProducts '65 the simple fact of the matter is that rulebooks sell far better than sourcebooks or adventures and in general a 4-5 year turn around on new editions is not unusual in the current marketplace.
Dizzo Dizzman
Considering that you don't have to do a print-run for PDFs you could use them to target a smaller audience. Maybe they can keep the SR3 line going with a set of straight to PDF books.
Ellery
Vuron, I think my thread summarizes why people like exploding dice and variable TNs, but to summarize the summary: exploding dice make it so difficult actions are never truly impossible; and variable TNs make it so easy actions will almost always succeed.

These are nice qualities to have in a dice system. The mechanic as stated so far seems unlikely to have those qualities, and it's not much fun to anticipate having to try to work around those weirdnesses in all one's games.

("Yeah, since you're a police sharpshooter and you're doing target practice, you get 5 extra dice to hit...oh heck, you're still missing the entire silhouette 5% of the time, okay, you get 15 extra dice!")

Older PDFs would be nice, but it would be nice if the rules were simplified by consolidating the myriad different rules and pools and so on to a single consistent standard rather than making the rules so simple that you can go from novice to master in fifteen minutes. Some of us then proceed go to from master to bored (or annoyed) in another fifteen minutes.

So I think the griping is also akin to hoping that "simple" doesn't mean "brain-dead".
Phantom Runner
QUOTE (Mieric)
QUOTE

Well, prior experience with other companies ruining a game someone likes by making massive changes to the mechanics is playing a role here - at least IMO.

While some people will like the changes that SR4 will bring, I view it the same as I view that abomination called 3.5e D&D until its proven otherwise... I liked the racial restrictions, demi-human level limits, the human-centric design, THAC0, Armor Class deviations by weapon type - and WotC ripped all that out. I don't like feats, BAB, the skill system, CR, or sorcerers.

Not that I'm belittling your opinions in any way, but you do realize that your opinion of the changes made to D&D are in the minority. Most players, myself included, consider d20 to be a rather good (if simplistic) system for running D&D adventures (but not much else). Of course, I'm not going to expound on the crap storm that the d20 system has allowed to hit the shelves....

Now as far as the "new" system. I've been playing Shadowrun for a long time and frankly I'm rather pleased by this turn of events. I'm about as pleased as when I heard that White Wolf was using a similar (or the same wink.gif ) mechanic for their new game line.

And for all those who think that the system is stolen from White Wolf, I would like to say that during the previews of White Wolf's new system and subsiquent release of core rules I was struck by how similar a lot of the mechanics were to SR3!!

Bottom line is this. As time goes on, new conventions are introduced which can change the gaming community for the better. It would be extremely lax and irresponsible of a game line developer to ignore mechanics that make things better/easier. I applaud (well not litterally) the attempt to incorporate a very good mechanic into an often time, far too complex system. In fact, if SR wasn't going to be reprinted with this change, I was actually considering working up a mechanic for myself to use in my own games... Glad to see I won't have to.
audun
QUOTE (Phantom Runner)
Bottom line is this.  As time goes on, new conventions are introduced which can change the gaming community for the better.  It would be extremely lax and irresponsible of a game line developer to ignore mechanics that make things better/easier.  I applaud (well not litterally) the attempt to incorporate a very good mechanic into an often time, far too complex system.  In fact, if SR wasn't going to be reprinted with this change, I was actually considering working up a mechanic for myself to use in my own games... Glad to see I won't have to.

[puts on flame-resistant suit, covers IP tracks and enters underground shelter at undisclosed location]

Actually, it made me dump my planned conversion of SR to FUDGE.
audun
first double post!
Ellery
Phantom, can you explain what makes this kind of mechanic "very good" (if that is
what you are claiming)? What do you think are its strengths and weaknesses (if any)?
Phantom Runner
QUOTE

Phantom, can you explain what makes this kind of mechanic "very good" (if that is
what you are claiming)?  What do you think are its strengths and weaknesses (if any)?


I'm claiming that the fixed TN, variable dice pool mechanic will be better than the SR3 variable TN, varible dice pool, variable successes needed mechanic.

Basically taking out at least one of those variables makes figuring out successes so much easier. And the only true evidence I'm going on is my own experience with the, as stated, similar system used in the nWoD game line. Before they redid their dice system, they had variable TN, variable dice pools, and variable successes needed, just like SR3 currently has. After the change they have fixed TN and variable dice pool modifiers. Everything from top to bottom has become faster and easier without losing any of the flavor.

My experience is anecdotal I know, but I'm hoping that the forth coming change to SR4 to use fixed TN, variable dice pool modifiers will make SR that much easier to play without taking away from the feel of the system.

I hope I answered your questions without being too vague....
Ellery
By "so much easier" do you mean that it's much faster to roll the dice and resolve the test, or that it's easier to know what to expect?

If you mean that it's faster to count the dice up, then yes, I'd have to agree. But really, what fraction of the time do you spend counting dice up? What takes all the time is finding which modifers to apply.

But it doesn't matter if the modifiers change the TN or the number of dice rolled--unless you are unable to remember two (small) numbers at the same time, you still have to find the modifiers and do some basic addition or subtraction. If you redo the rules so that there are fewer modifiers, fine--but that has nothing to do with using a nWoD system or SR3's system, that's has to do with efficiently spelling out modifiers. Amazingly enough, I can remember three small numbers at the same time and thus have no problem remembering pool. And since it's up to me, and I know whether or not I can use it, applying it is very rapid. If you can't remember pool, it's easy to use some physical aid. So in the preparation for the roll, I don't think that it's significantly faster.

If you mean that it's easier to know what to expect, you're absolutely right. You have fewer interesting choices, especially without pool, and you don't have to really take into consideration how hard something is, because whatever gives you more dice is always the best thing that you can do. In other words, it's easier because the player has less control over what happens to them. I do not view this as a good thing! It makes the player's input simpler, but it also makes it less important.
Critias
Exactly. "Just roll the dice the GM tells you to roll," again. Because, y'know, there just aren't enough games like that already. All we're gonna be doing (unless something changes and makes those two horrific lines of FAQ obsolete) is tallying up our bonuses, tossing the dice, and crossing our fingers (just like in the much-maligned d20, or something). The only say it sounds like we'll have in how a combat goes down is "I shoot him" as opposed to "I cast a spell at him" or the tactical brilliance of "I punch him."

So many complex decisions!
mfb
seriously. if i want a game where combat is all about who rolls better, with no way to emphasize important rolls over less important rolls, i'll play d20. i'm not saying it will be, but if it is... well, d20 fills my requirement for games that don't require me to think about what i'm doing.
Mieric
QUOTE (Phantom Runner)
Not that I'm belittling your opinions in any way, but you do realize that your opinion of the changes made to D&D are in the minority.  Most players, myself included, consider d20 to be a rather good (if simplistic) system for running D&D adventures (but not much else).  Of course, I'm not going to expound on the crap storm that the d20 system has allowed to hit the shelves....


Oh I definitely realize I'm in the minority as far as my preference for 1e AD&D goes, that doesn't mean we don't play and enjoy ourselves with D&D as much as anyone else does. Hell the 1e fans at dragonsfoot.org have put out new adventures, settings, an e-zine, spells, items, etc - which is great! At least until you notice that its friggin hard as hell to get the books (in decent or even readable shape) necessary to play 1e AD&D.

The same thing is going to happen to us SR3 fans once SR4 comes out, the books that we need to play the game (the way we want too, not how someone from on high dictates we do) are going to be disenfranchised yet again.... especially considering how much more durable those 1e AD&D Hardback books are than SR3s floppy paperbacks.

So unless they plan to continue making SR3 material available, expect to hear people like me bitch.

QUOTE (Phantom Runner)
As time goes on, new conventions are introduced which can change the gaming community for the better.  It would be extremely lax and irresponsible of a game line developer to ignore mechanics that make things better/easier. 


And as far as "new conventions improving the gaming community for the better" goes... That's strictly a personal opinion. I think the amount of munchkinism and powergaming (the 300 EL3+ Races, the 500k Gamebreaking Prestige Classes, +50 Longswords, etc - and all the other crap in the official supplements) crap present since the release of 3e D&D really screwed the local community, but everyone else thinks its an improvement.
Adam
There are no plans to stop selling SR3 materials in electronic format. Or SR1 or SR2 titles, for that matter.
Mieric
QUOTE (Adam @ Apr 8 2005, 06:09 PM)
There are no plans to stop selling SR3 materials in electronic format.  Or SR1 or SR2 titles, for that matter.


Good luck with SR4 then, I'll just stick with SR3 and getting the PDFs printed out at Kinko's... as long as the SR3 Core book remains on sell as well??
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