The Question
Apr 15 2005, 05:48 PM
I managed to pick up a job lot of Shadowrun sourcebooks oof eBay and I'm currently reading through them, trying to make sense of all the little titbits of information they contain. However, with some of them I need a little help, so I was hoping Dumpshockers can help me out! Ive got a couple of questions so far, and likely more to come. Heres my first batch...
I understand that a Horror was banished at Crater Lake, but whats with the levitating construction materials?
The Passion worshipping shamen I understand to be an Earthdawn reference, but why would knowing about them get you killed?
Am I right in thinking the Tir is one big Kaer? Im getting this idea from the hint of a "Great Ward" to the fact that all children are taught art and magical theory: art to identify Horror marked, the theory to create Earthdawn style adepts?
Why was Lofwyr invited to the Council of Princes?
Juan Atzcapotzalco, what the heck is he? Horror construct, cyber zombie or something else? And why go to all the trouble of keeping him alive?
Just what the heck is Roxborough turning into? I know in Earthdawn Verjigorm placed dragons in cocoons to transform them into Horrors, could this be a similar thing?
Why the controversy over Atzlan warrior orders?
Finally (for now
) , the rumours about the spirits of Aztecs being kept "alive" for centuries via blood sacrifice, is this implying what I think its implying? That a Horror has been there for thousands of years and is being kept their through all the blood sacrifices?
Demonseed Elite
Apr 15 2005, 05:57 PM
Some of those questions will be addressed in the next few books, though more questions will come up, I'm sure.
hahnsoo
Apr 15 2005, 06:11 PM
On some of those, it would help to have a sourcebook/page reference to get a context of the situation.
Roxborough is turning into a de-differentiated blob of flesh with only his mind intact (supposedly) because of a failed Universal Omnitech experimental therapy. By now, I'd say the transformation process is mostly complete, and he has given up any chance of being cured of his condition. It is not likely to have anything to do with Horrors, but he is one mean SOB.
I'd imagine that Lowfyr was invited to the Council of Princes specifically to act as a check against Ehran, Oakforest, and Jenna Ni'Farra. Lugh Surehand promoted the idea, and got his yes-men to do the backing for it. If you think of the Council of Princes as a power struggle where the Elder Elves thought they had Lugh Surehand, their puppet High Prince, under their control, it makes sense (maybe).
Not sure why following a Passion would get you killed (there are only a handful of beings who would even know what the Passions were). There are several "Mad Passions", though, that will drive you absolutely batty, I guess.
I don't think the Tir is a Kaer at all. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Page reference?
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 06:30 PM
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
Not sure why following a Passion would get you killed (there are only a handful of beings who would even know what the Passions were). There are several "Mad Passions", though, that will drive you absolutely batty, I guess.
I don't think the Tir is a Kaer at all. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Page reference? |
Page 69, Tir Tairngire has a Shadowland post from Walker where he describes Shamen who follow Passions (with the capital P, which made me certain it was an Earthdawn reference rather than generic Love, Hate etc...). This post is then followed by one from Laughing Man (Harlequin) that insinuates rather bluntly that Walker is dead man. Wasn't sure why this would be the case...
Tir as a Kaer has several origins. Page 13 first brings up the "Great ward", and it even warrants a response from Harlequin. Page 69 (again) talks about even non-awakened being encouraged to dabble in magic, and page 68 talks about basic magical theory being taught in juniour school. Page 73 goes into detail about art being made compulsory at elementary, secondary and high school as well as the Art Education Act of 2041. Its not hard concrete evidence, but having every single citizen with artistic skills would certainly come in handy if you were trying to screen for Horror marked...
Demonseed Elite
Apr 15 2005, 06:38 PM
| QUOTE |
| Page 69, Tir Tairngire has a Shadowland post from Walker where he describes Shamen who follow Passions (with the capital P, which made me certain it was an Earthdawn reference rather than generic Love, Hate etc...). This post is then followed by one from Laughing Man (Harlequin) that insinuates rather bluntly that Walker is dead man. Wasn't sure why this would be the case... |
I think that's more of a reference to the fact that Walker is hinting that he knows Fourth World knowledge, and that there are a number of people who would like to stop him from blabbing. It's not that following a Passion is fatal, it's that posting about it is.
Fortune
Apr 15 2005, 06:38 PM
Take a lot of Harley's posts with a grain of salt. The problem is figuring out which ones are actually serious. Harley himself deals with Passions ... well at least one.
[edit] And what DE said! [/edit]
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 06:40 PM
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
Roxborough is turning into a de-differentiated blob of flesh with only his mind intact (supposedly) because of a failed Universal Omnitech experimental therapy. By now, I'd say the transformation process is mostly complete, and he has given up any chance of being cured of his condition. It is not likely to have anything to do with Horrors, but he is one mean SOB.
|
Page 62-64 of Atzlan covers Roxborough. It all seems a little fishy to me, surely with all of the Big A's magical muscle they could fight the disease? Sticking someone in a tank like that just seems a little...mysterious. I guess everything else about Atzlan stinks of The Horrors so I'm getting the odours mixed up.
Whats really driving me on is the implication that he's no longer human...it seemed strange to me that this was emphasised when they go into such detail about how his body is redifferntiated. Then theres the stuff about his mind being different now, and the fact that his tank has been moved to South America. Tie that into the fact that he's telling people that they can soon meet him in the flesh again. That and a comment on AH's site about Verjigorms cocoons kind of got my brain firing off on this one...
Plus, the colour section of the book has a picture of Roxborough, and his head has gone all tentacley...
Kagetenshi
Apr 15 2005, 06:43 PM
If Roxborough starts growing eyes all over, I'm nuking all of Central America and moving to Mars.
~J
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 06:47 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
If Roxborough starts growing eyes all over, I'm nuking all of Central America and moving to Mars.
~J |
Its just my suspicion, but its certainly an interesting way for the plot to run!
And to allay your need for a nuclear strike, from what I can make out Roxborough only has one eye...
Fortune
Apr 15 2005, 06:49 PM
A one-eyed, tentacled head? He's becoming a beholder!
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 06:51 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| A one-eyed, tentacled head? He's becoming a beholder! |
So thats how their going to reveal Shadowrun D20
winterhawk11
Apr 15 2005, 06:57 PM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
Page 62-64 of Atzlan covers Roxborough. It all seems a little fishy to me, surely with all of the Big A's magical muscle they could fight the disease? Sticking someone in a tank like that just seems a little...mysterious. I guess everything else about Atzlan stinks of The Horrors so I'm getting the odours mixed up.
|
There's some more info about Roxborough in the Dragon Heart trilogy--Alice grabs his mind and pulls it into her little corner of the Matrix for awhile, then decides the best way to punish him is to send him back and make him live in his "clockwork asylum," stuck in a tank and forced to spend his life in the Matrix. This is in punishment for his role in the Crash of '29 (which killed Alice and stranded her in the Matrix).
AFAIK Roxy's human (albeit blobby) and has nothing to do with Horrors, Lovecraftian things-that-man-was-not-meant-to-know, coccooned dragons, or anything else.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 07:02 PM
| QUOTE (winterhawk11) |
AFAIK Roxy's human (albeit blobby) and has nothing to do with Horrors, Lovecraftian things-that-man-was-not-meant-to-know, coccooned dragons, or anything else. |
Then how do you interpret him telling people that he will be able to meet them in the flesh? If he is just a mass of fat and tissue with a mind, how the heck is going to step out of the tank and have chats with his friends???
Critias
Apr 15 2005, 07:16 PM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
| Tir as a Kaer has several origins. Page 13 first brings up the "Great ward", and it even warrants a response from Harlequin. Page 69 (again) talks about even non-awakened being encouraged to dabble in magic, and page 68 talks about basic magical theory being taught in juniour school. Page 73 goes into detail about art being made compulsory at elementary, secondary and high school as well as the Art Education Act of 2041. Its not hard concrete evidence, but having every single citizen with artistic skills would certainly come in handy if you were trying to screen for Horror marked... |
Which was what I thought of the first time I read through TT back in the day (I was playing in an active Earthdawn campaign at the time, which helped) -- but it could just as easily all be coincidental, or written off (luckily for those who are against the two game worlds being linked) as artsy-fartsy elven Mary Sue crap, too.
"They teach all their middle school boys interior design, too!"
Nikoli
Apr 15 2005, 07:18 PM
wow looks like I miss a lot in not reading the novels.
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 07:22 PM
Damn, looks like I'm not needed.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 07:26 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Damn, looks like I'm not needed. |
Theres still plenty that I need answers on AH, and I'd be honoured to see you debunk my wild theories!
Pthgar
Apr 15 2005, 07:28 PM
AH, be patiant. I'm sure that System Crash (or whatever) will have plenty of info that will produce answers that need clarification and questions to link to earlier stuff.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 07:38 PM
| QUOTE (Pthgar) |
| AH, be patiant. I'm sure that System Crash (or whatever) will have plenty of info that will produce answers that need clarification and questions to link to earlier stuff. |
In the meantime, its a lot of fun to toss up crazy theories and see who comes closest to the truth...
winterhawk11
Apr 15 2005, 07:40 PM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
| Then how do you interpret him telling people that he will be able to meet them in the flesh? If he is just a mass of fat and tissue with a mind, how the heck is going to step out of the tank and have chats with his friends??? |
Well...keeping in mind that it's been awhile since I read the Aztlan sourcebook and also that I don't remember how far apart Aztlan and the DH Trilogy were...he might have been referring to the fact that his big plot in the first part of the DHT was to have his mind transplanted into another human body (Ryan Mercury's, as it turned out). This plan could have been in the works for awhile behind the scenes before the DHT was published. That's just a guess, though--I don't have my books handy.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 07:47 PM
| QUOTE (winterhawk11) |
| Well...keeping in mind that it's been awhile since I read the Aztlan sourcebook and also that I don't remember how far apart Aztlan and the DH Trilogy were...he might have been referring to the fact that his big plot in the first part of the DHT was to have his mind transplanted into another human body (Ryan Mercury's, as it turned out). This plan could have been in the works for awhile behind the scenes before the DHT was published. That's just a guess, though--I don't have my books handy. |
If it helps, Aztlan was published in 1995.
Mind you, that rationale would work. Roxborough says he will "meet them in the flesh again" but doesn't specify who's flesh...
But again, surely a cloned body, or some dupe from Aztlan itself, would serve the purpose?
winterhawk11
Apr 15 2005, 08:01 PM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
If it helps, Aztlan was published in 1995.
Mind you, that rationale would work. Roxborough says he will "meet them in the flesh again" but doesn't specify who's flesh...
But again, surely a cloned body, or some dupe from Aztlan itself, would serve the purpose? |
Okay, 1995 would probably work, since the whole Dunkelzahn/Dragon Heart Trilogy thing started in late '97 and it had to be in the works long before that.
Without the books handy I can't remember why Roxborough wanted Ryan Mercury specifically instead of a clone or some random Aztlaner schmuck (though maybe the disease he had made cloning him impossible). Maybe he wanted a really
good body...
Vuron
Apr 15 2005, 08:51 PM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
Why was Lofwyr invited to the Council of Princes?
|
I've always assumed that Lofwyr provided a bunch of the funding to the IE conspiracy during the formative days of TT. So he might've used his cash to manuver assets that the Tir would later need to successful secede from the Salish-Sidhe Council. That and I would assume that he might've provided conventional weaponry for the Tir forces when they were fighting the CFS.
I always assumed he got a council seat as Quid Pro Quo for services rendered although conservative elements of the council continually moved to prevent TT from being a corporate vassal state to SK.
Of course given the record Alamais had with the IEs back in the 4th age I'm kinda wondering why the Elves and Lofwyr would work together and if it was more of a temporary alliance to counterbalance the might of other players.
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 08:59 PM
[/QUOTE]
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| I understand that a Horror was banished at Crater Lake, but whats with the levitating construction materials? |
Old Theran ruins, or possibly a remnant of Mu.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| The Passion worshipping shamen I understand to be an Earthdawn reference, but why would knowing about them get you killed? |
IEs and GDs keeping the 4th World a secret.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Am I right in thinking the Tir is one big Kaer? Im getting this idea from the hint of a "Great Ward" to the fact that all children are taught art and magical theory: art to identify Horror marked, the theory to create Earthdawn style adepts? |
As a long term goal, the artisan test and Great Ward would help toward preparing he Tir for the next Scourge. However, the Great Ward might simply have been a desire to keep up with the Jones' Veil.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Why was Lofwyr invited to the Council of Princes? |
Because Lugh needed to throw some weight around, and Lofwyr threw some weight around.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Juan Atzcapotzalco, what the heck is he? Horror construct, cyber zombie or something else? And why go to all the trouble of keeping him alive? |
Opinions vary, from Juannie being a drake feathered serpent to being a Horror construct, depending on whom you think is really behind Aztlan. They keep him alive as the Huey Tlatooti, the head honcho manipulating mana for the whole thing...the cult is the company is the country, as they say.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Just what the heck is Roxborough turning into? I know in Earthdawn Verjigorm placed dragons in cocoons to transform them into Horrors, could this be a similar thing? |
Roxy suffered a rare genetic condition which caused his tissue to differentiate...muscle tissue might spontaneously decide to become liver tissue, for example, or bone or neural matter, etc. An experimental treatment place him in a vat where his various bits and pieces could receive proper nutrition while hopefully stopping the changes...and that's where he's been stuck for the last few decades. He's not actually becoming anything.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Why the controversy over Atzlan warrior orders? |
Mimicing of Tir na nOg's own orders, initiated warrior societies, rumors of blood sacrifices and ritual cannibalism, y'know. The usual.
| QUOTE (TheQuestion) |
| Finally (for now ) , the rumours about the spirits of Aztecs being kept "alive" for centuries via blood sacrifice, is this implying what I think its implying? That a Horror has been there for thousands of years and is being kept their through all the blood sacrifices? |
It is possible, perhaps e'en likely, a Horror has been maintaining itself via Aztechnology, but it wouldn't need to have been sustained for thousands of years with blood rites...Har'lea'quinn was just admitting the possibility that a spirit could be maintained that way.
| QUOTE (Wnterhawk11) |
| Without the books handy I can't remember why Roxborough wanted Ryan Mercury specifically instead of a clone or some random Aztlaner schmuck (though maybe the disease he had made cloning him impossible). Maybe he wanted a really good body... |
Roxy liked the idea of being a powerful, virile physad. A clone wouldn't work...it would be susceptible to the same condition Roxy has.
Roxy's going a bit funny in the head, something to do with being hooked into the matrix 24-7-365 for years on end and having tendrils of brain tissue grow out from the weirdest body parts.
Kagetenshi
Apr 15 2005, 09:21 PM
What counts as a "mirror" with regard to revealing Bone Crown the Usurper? Will reflective windows do it?
~J
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 09:28 PM
Bonecrown is screwed. Everyone in the future wears mirrorshades.
Kagetenshi
Apr 15 2005, 09:36 PM
So Juan himself can't be old Bones…
~J
Vuron
Apr 15 2005, 09:45 PM
Ever since reading the ED dragon book I've kinda wondered if the horror twisted Cathay dragon mentioned in the Aztlan book was the dragon Dvilgaynon. I guess this is based on Dunklezahn's annotation concerning Vestrivian on page 118 in which he says he hopes that Vestrivian's knowledge would be useful to the council and thier Cathay ally Dvilgaynon. At least part of me wonders if this Dvilgaynon might've been willing to learn from Vestrivian and then got horror corrupted himself.
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 09:48 PM
Dvilgaynon is a female, for starters, and for seconder the horror-corrupted dragon in Aztlan isn't described as Cathayan or Oriental.
Kagetenshi
Apr 15 2005, 09:52 PM
Incidentally, is it just me or are you missing Charcoalgrin on your Immortals page, AH?
~J
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 10:01 PM
Not a great dragon. I don't count lessers, which is why you haven't seen Lochlann, Peri, or the others up there either.
Vuron
Apr 15 2005, 10:14 PM
Is it just my imagination or don't some people think that Hestaby might be Charcoalgrin? I can't remember the reasoning they might've had for that suspicion.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 11:20 PM
Thanks for the excellent reply AH! Quick offshoot question...why would the Mu/Theran thingymijigs be useful? some kind of inherent magic to contain the horrors?
The dates thing clears up Roxborough...I did like my initial idea though!
Ancient History
Apr 15 2005, 11:23 PM
Some people think Hestaby might be Charcoalgrin, just because they're both female dragons and have never been seen in the same place. <shrugs>
The floating buildings have the purpose of being...floating buildings.
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 11:26 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Dvilgaynon is a female, for starters, and for seconder the horror-corrupted dragon in Aztlan isn't described as Cathayan or Oriental. |
Hate to correct you AH, but heres the description: "I saw a dragon, an eastern dragon..." (Aztlan, page 67)
The Question
Apr 15 2005, 11:26 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| The floating buildings have the purpose of being...floating buildings. |
Very insightful...
Adam
Apr 16 2005, 12:14 AM
I have it on good authority that Charcoalgrin is currently busy in their role as the North Coast Championship Wrestling Champion.
"Coming down the aisle, weighing in at none-of-your-damned-business, the three time and current North Coast Championship Wrestling Champion, Char-coal-grinnnn!"
FlakJacket
Apr 16 2005, 02:10 AM
| QUOTE (The Question) |
| Very insightful... |
Zen and the Art of Bullshitting.
Ancient History
Apr 16 2005, 02:41 AM
TheQuestion: My bad.
Kagetenshi
Apr 16 2005, 02:54 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Not a great dragon. I don't count lessers, which is why you haven't seen Lochlann, Peri, or the others up there either. |
Ah, I'd forgotten that bit, sorry.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Apr 16 2005, 03:48 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 15 2005, 04:28 PM) |
Bonecrown is screwed. Everyone in the future wears mirrorshades.
|
who?
I'd heard one idea somewhere that there was another locus stone in Crater Lake. Don't remember from where though. Thoughts?
Kagetenshi
Apr 16 2005, 04:16 AM
Bone Crown the Usurper, master of deception and lies, draws power from followers (quite literally, draws power based on the number of followers. Bone Crown in charge of both the second largest megacorporation in the world and an entire country would be nigh godlike). Its true form is revealed to all if it sees its reflection.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Apr 16 2005, 05:23 AM
Horror I assume?
Kagetenshi
Apr 16 2005, 05:24 AM
Quite.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Apr 16 2005, 05:26 AM
thanks.
Just for reference, which book? I've been planning on digging up some of the old ED books, like Horrors. Scourge unending looks promising too.
kackling kactuar
Apr 16 2005, 05:27 AM
Bone Crown is such a cheesy name for a Horror.
fistandantilus4.0
Apr 16 2005, 05:30 AM
and Verjigorm is cool? Or Chantrel's Horror?
Moral of the story: Don't judge a horror by it's cheesy ass name.
kackling kactuar
Apr 16 2005, 05:37 AM
| QUOTE |
| and Verjigorm is cool? Or Chantrel's Horror? |
While neither qualify as cool, both are still 87.5 times cooler than "Bone Crown."
See, Ysrthgrathe knows where it's at. Vowels are highly overrated.
Kagetenshi
Apr 16 2005, 05:49 AM
Hey, don't you be knocking Bone Crown.
~J
fistandantilus4.0
Apr 16 2005, 05:54 AM
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
Just for reference, which book? |
Kage~ ?
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