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weblife
Alas, you are correct. The FAQ does state that its either PP or Meta, not both. frown.gif

This, however, makes Metamagic really expensive for the poor Mag Adept. - The only one I'll probably get, is the Spell Shielding.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 28 2005, 03:59 AM)
Alas, you are correct. The FAQ does state that its either PP or Meta, not both.  frown.gif

This, however, makes Metamagic really expensive for the poor Mag Adept. - The only one I'll probably get, is the Spell Shielding.

Pick up Masking as well, and you're all set. My Magician's Way adept is eventually going to pick up Attuning, for in-character reasons.

As for the problem of astral perception, one solution is to conjure up an ally spirit with the Sense Link power. Just make sure it has enough force to handle itself... losing an ally spirit can hurt, big time.
Fortune
QUOTE (weblife)
Alas, you are correct. The FAQ does state that its either PP or Meta, not both.

The FAQ is pretty much wrong in that respect ... at least as far as I and most people I know are concerned. The whole problem is the original wording in canon is very misleading (as you know).
weblife
Masking is not as important. The perciever needs two successes on a normal assensing roll to determine you are an adept.

Then they get informed of 1 power pr. additional success on their assensing check. You do not need all that many powers before it becomes nearly impossible for someone to scout you out completely.

Those 0.25 PP sense powers can keep even the most perceptive busy for awhile.

-

I am also convinced that the FAQ is wrong. It makes no sense that a, perhaps, rash decision to give MW Adepts 2 PP pr. initiation ends up nerfing the class. Instead they should have rolled back the 2 PP option, not taken away the PP + Meta option.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (weblife)
Masking is not as important. The perciever needs two successes on a normal assensing roll to determine you are an adept.

Then they get informed of 1 power pr. additional success on their assensing check. You do not need all that many powers before it becomes nearly impossible for someone to scout you out completely.

Those 0.25 PP sense powers can keep even the most perceptive busy for awhile.

Well, if you intend to have sustained spells, masking can be very important. Also, it's the only way you can synchronize through wards (keeping all of your active magic intact).
weblife
Karma Average 12 11 11 12 12 13 14 14 15 16

The above is the average cost in Karma, pr. Initiation Grade. This can be used to clarify the game balance issue here.

Most of us play in games, where 1-5 grades of initiation is attainable.

A normal mage, or normal adept, recieves Magic/Power + a Meta for each grade. Effectively, the Meta must be half or less of the grade value.

The MW Adept must, according to the FAQ, not the book, pay 11-12 Karma for the Meta alone. This is not balanced at all.

Lets look the other way. In the book its stated that the MW Adept has the option of taking an extra PP, instead of a Meta. Lets look at what he can do with it.

First off, no single Power can be greater than the adepts Magic Attribute, so he can't misuse the extra Power to get more powerful than the true mages in spellpower alone.

As an Adept, he's (in spirit of the way) obliged to spend PP's on Magical Power, which means he is puny in the combat aspects of a pure Adept. The MW Adept also lacks Astral Perception, that costs 2 PP.

If our MW Adept strives to master his way, and become a good mage, he needs to get Astral Perception. Thats two initiate grades worth of extra PP's thats spent there. He's still short two Metas compared to the true mage though.

He's also still short on the pure Adept in combat ability.

The third and so on Initiation Grade begins to allow the MW Adept to catch up somewhat, but he is still sacrificing Metas to do it. Using Geas for PP rebates it can go a little faster, but its still a long haul.

I think, that yes, in a 200+ Karma campaign the MW Adept, as described in the books, can begin to outshine the "pure" adept. He'll never match the pure mage in magic ability.

If you use the MW Adept to break the system, as in making a phys adept who does Not buy a point of Magical Power each Initiation Grade, then yes he outshines and kills off normal Adepts. - But then he isn't true to his Way and the GM should disallow it.

Kept in context, and with a minimum of GM call (keep on the chosen Path), the class holds it own, but it not overpowered. - This addendum should be in the FAQ, not the current total nerf.
fistandantilus4.0
If the MW takes just one point for spell casting, he's just under the ability of a normal adept, plus spell casting power. yes, he takes physical drain, but that can be taken care of with a high will, centering (if he has Astral perception), not too mention how nice a power focus would make it for him. With a power focus, he has little reason to put power into spell casting. Using stuff like that, and the adept version, they can just buy more spells, and work on their adept abilities.

Basically, as I see it at least, there's no reason that they should be able to effectively get twice as much magical power , just because they don't get a meta magic. Why wouldn't a normal adept do that then?

The ability to cast spells, and even enchant their own equipment makes them even stronger. Enchant a weapon, learn attunement, improved ability, combat sense sustainng foucs perhaps, quicken imp reflexes, adept power resist pain.... on and on, the abilities that they can take that complement each other MORE than make up for limiting the amount of metamagics they get at the expense of power points.
hahnsoo
It's not a "class". You're either playing a gimped mage with some adept powers or a gimped adept with some mage powers. You get versatility at the cost of power. The way it is set up now, a Magician's Way adept should never "hold his own" with either a Mage or an Adept at an equivalent cost of Karma. I believe this to be part of the game design, to keep such combinations rare. I'm currently playing a Magician's Way adept using the FAQ rules, and he's probably the single most powerful and versatile character in the group, despite the supposed "Karma lag", and we have an adept and a shaman in the group. I'm about 30 Karma behind the shaman (probably more, as she's been burning a lot of Cash for Karma).

Folks are free to house-rule it the way that they'd like, of course. The effect is rather obvious when you tune-up the Magician's Way adept... they become much more attractive to play. If that is your intent, then by all means, go with it.

Not sure where you are getting the "Average Karma for Initiation" numbers. It's not any table that I've seen... this is the actual Karma table:
CODE
Initiate Grade   1    2    3    4    5
Solo, No Ordeal  18   21   24   27   30
Solo, Ordeal     15   17   20   22   25
Group, No Ordeal 12   14   16   18   20
Group, Ordeal    9    10   12   13   15
weblife
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
It's not a "class". You're either playing a gimped mage with some adept powers or a gimped adept with some mage powers. You get versatility at the cost of power. The way it is set up now, a Magician's Way adept should never "hold his own" with either a Mage or an Adept at an equivalent cost of Karma. I believe this to be part of the game design, to keep such combinations rare. I'm currently playing a Magician's Way adept using the FAQ rules, and he's probably the single most powerful and versatile character in the group, despite the supposed "Karma lag", and we have an adept and a shaman in the group. I'm about 30 Karma behind the shaman (probably more, as she's been burning a lot of Cash for Karma).

Folks are free to house-rule it the way that they'd like, of course. The effect is rather obvious when you tune-up the Magician's Way adept... they become much more attractive to play. If that is your intent, then by all means, go with it.

Not sure where you are getting the "Average Karma for Initiation" numbers. It's not any table that I've seen... this is the actual Karma table:
CODE
Initiate Grade   1    2    3    4    5
Solo, No Ordeal  18   21   24   27   30
Solo, Ordeal     15   17   20   22   25
Group, No Ordeal 12   14   16   18   20
Group, Ordeal    9    10   12   13   15

It shows the average amount of Karma you have spent getting each grade, at the grade you are at. At grade 1 you have spent (9+3)/1 Karma, at grade two you have spent 11 Karma averaged (3+9+10)/2, etc.

Our group is high powered. Creation is with 132 points and maxed attributes is not uncommen. Skills in the 10s aren't either.

With the 2 PP rule the MW can get too powerful, at extreme Karma levels.

Without the 2 PP rule, but just ordinary Initiation rules, the MW is ok.

With FAQ rules, the MW is gimp no matter your POW.

I'll design him along the mid option, and lobby my GM for the first as the party grows in power. nyahnyah.gif
audun
Exactly why is it that MW adepts don't use the same initiation rules as other adepts?
As the MW adepts effective Magic attribute only is his rating in Magical Power, the increased Magic from Inititation has no effect unless applied as a Power Point. Where exactly is it that the MW adept is getting any overpowered effects from Inititation? I don't get it, could someone please enligthen me?
weblife
QUOTE (audun)
Exactly why is it that MW adepts don't use the same initiation rules as other adepts?
As the MW adepts effective Magic attribute only is his rating in Magical Power, the increased Magic from Inititation has no effect unless applied as a Power Point. Where exactly is it that the MW adept is getting any overpowered effects from Inititation? I don't get it, could someone please enligthen me?

You are correct. Thats why the FAQ must be mistaking.

The book, Magic in the Shadows, adds an option to the MW initiation. It doesn't remove the ordinary initiation options.

Also, I'd like to pose a question to those who feel getting 2 PP's for initiating is too much:

What Adept Power or combination of Adept Powers, worth a total of 1 PP, with or without Geas, is more powerful compared to a Metamagic?

Which is more powerful? - 1 PP or 1 Metamagic?
toturi
QUOTE (audun)
Exactly why is it that MW adepts don't use the same initiation rules as other adepts?
As the MW adepts effective Magic attribute only is his rating in Magical Power, the increased Magic from Inititation has no effect unless applied as a Power Point. Where exactly is it that the MW adept is getting any overpowered effects from Inititation? I don't get it, could someone please enligthen me?

When you initiate, you gain a point of Magic. That point of Magic normally gives a power point. However, by a strict reading of the Magician Adept initiation rules, the MA gets either an extra power point or a metamagic technique ie he get to trade in the metamagic to gain another power point. However, while this is the letter of the rule, it is not the spirit of the rule as seen per FAQ.
audun
QUOTE (toturi)
When you initiate, you gain a point of Magic. That point of Magic normally gives a power point. However, by a strict reading of the Magician Adept initiation rules, the MA gets either an extra power point or a metamagic technique ie he get to trade in the metamagic to gain another power point. However, while this is the letter of the rule, it is not the spirit of the rule as seen per FAQ.

I'm well aware that there is such a rule. What I don't get is why there is such a rule. IMO the clarification shouldn't be in the FAQ, it should be in the errata. Remove that sentence (rule) and the rules make perfect sense.
toturi
If the sentence was removed, then the adept would be able to gain both a power point and a meta technique which is not what the author wanted.
Fortune
I can see no logical reason why a MW Adept does not Initiate in the exact same manner as any other Adept. After all, he is an Adept, who just happened to pay a little extra in BP at chargen to have access to the Magical Power ability.
weblife
QUOTE (toturi)
If the sentence was removed, then the adept would be able to gain both a power point and a meta technique which is not what the author wanted.

The above is what all other magic users get. - If MW adept was an exception, then it would have been mentioned in the initiation rules, aswell as in that slightly obscure sentence at the end of the MW description.

The MW was intended to be granted a fourth option when initiating. Somewhere along the way, someone, perhaps the author, changed his mind about it and applied a half-thought solution.

What really matters are, how are the concrete impacts of allowing the MW to use normal initiation rules, and to a degree, how does allowing them to use their special fourth option impact game balance.

I risk repeating myself, but I think its pretty obvious that following the FAQ rules will make the MW unattractive.

Using the standard initiation rules makes sense. Some will go with that.

But I have yet to hear any real arguments vs. allowing the fourth option, with careful GM supervision. As in, one of the PPs Must be used on Magical Power at each grade.
toturi
QUOTE (weblife)
But I have yet to hear any real arguments vs. allowing the fourth option, with careful GM supervision. As in, one of the PPs Must be used on Magical Power at each grade.

If a Magician's Way adept needs to spend 1 of his PPs per initiation on Magical Power, then what must the Way of the Warrior adept spend his PPs on? The books have deliberately left the rules on specific adept ways (SOTA 2064) to the GM because while one Magican Adept might see himself as an adept with some magical powers while another might see himself as an almost magician with some adept powers. So while enforcing 1 power point per initiation might seem like a good RP choice to the almost mage with adept powers, it would seem silly to do so for the adept with some magic.
The Question
CODE
Initiate Grade   1    2    3    4    5
Solo, No Ordeal  18   21   24   27   30
Solo, Ordeal     15   17   20   22   25
Group, No Ordeal 12   14   16   18   20
Group, Ordeal    9    10   12   13   15


What doesnt make sense to me is that if an Adept wishes to purchase a PP without initiation, it costs him 20 Karma. So even at the worst possible level of initiation, its cost effective for him to become a Grade 1 Initiate (He'll save 2 Good Karma). Is it not a little unfair, seeing as mages dont get free spells, just the increase in Magic attribute?
weblife
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (weblife @ Apr 28 2005, 09:13 PM)
But I have yet to hear any real arguments vs. allowing the fourth option, with careful GM supervision. As in, one of the PPs Must be used on Magical Power at each grade.

If a Magician's Way adept needs to spend 1 of his PPs per initiation on Magical Power, then what must the Way of the Warrior adept spend his PPs on? The books have deliberately left the rules on specific adept ways (SOTA 2064) to the GM because while one Magican Adept might see himself as an adept with some magical powers while another might see himself as an almost magician with some adept powers. So while enforcing 1 power point per initiation might seem like a good RP choice to the almost mage with adept powers, it would seem silly to do so for the adept with some magic.

I think you are confusing a few things. Only MW Adepts can pick two PP's at initiation.

A Warriors Way Adept can only chose options with 1 PP + either a Meta or a signature change.

If you do not limit the MW Adept to spend atleast a goodly part of his total PP's in Magical Power, then he can very easily, and quickly, become much more powerful than a Phys Adept on the Warriors Way.

This is because the WW Adept can get 3 Metas ever. After three initiations he gains just a single PP each time.

The MW Adept, played as a WW Adept, taking a single level of Magical Power, and then initiating solely with the 2 PP pr. grade option, well, you can see he will get twice the PP's of a WW Adept.

This conflict is removed by limiting the MW Adept, by houserule, to be obliged to buy atleast 1 level of Magical Power each time he initiates.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (weblife)
This is because the WW Adept can get 3 Metas ever. After three initiations he gains just a single PP each time.

This is no longer true. There is a long list of metamagics that are available to adepts (and some to adepts exclusively) in SOTA:2064.
toturi
QUOTE (weblife)
I think you are confusing a few things. Only MW Adepts can pick two PP's at initiation.

A Warriors Way Adept can only chose options with 1 PP + either a Meta or a signature change.

If you do not limit the MW Adept to spend atleast a goodly part of his total PP's in Magical Power, then he can very easily, and quickly, become much more powerful than a Phys Adept on the Warriors Way.

This is because the WW Adept can get 3 Metas ever. After three initiations he gains just a single PP each time.

The MW Adept, played as a WW Adept, taking a single level of Magical Power, and then initiating solely with the 2 PP pr. grade option, well, you can see he will get twice the PP's of a WW Adept.

This conflict is removed by limiting the MW Adept, by houserule, to be obliged to buy atleast 1 level of Magical Power each time he initiates.

I am not. If you mandate that a Magician's Way Adept must take Magical Power, then why stop there? Why not mandate that a Warrior Way must spend at least 0.5 PPs on a combat power?

What is the justification for insisting MW Adept must spend at least one point on Magical Power? Game Balance? Remember, unless the adept took Astral Perception, he cannot cast spells on the Astral Plane or remove his astral signature. You are effectively forcing a MW Adept to sit on his hands on 1 PP when he has the chance to gain Astral Perception which IMO fits the Magician Way well.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (weblife)


What Adept Power or combination of Adept Powers, worth a total of 1 PP, with or without Geas, is more powerful compared to a Metamagic?

Which is more powerful? - 1 PP or 1 Metamagic?

2 grades of initian, killing hands deadly, compared to say..... we'll do masking and centering, two good ones there.

Centering - good, has lots of uses, especially for adepts applying it to improved abilities like combat, or infusion. But it takes karma to raise.

Masking - mage, what mage?

Try a few more -
Channeling, pretty awesome one right there, a slong as you have a good conjuring skill and charisma.

invoking- pretty much as above.

2 powerpoints- 4 more dice to an attribute or skill. THat's a pretty huge jump, especially if you figure in how much karma that would normally cost you.

THat's not very equal, especially since those are some of the most common/powerful metamagics, and they require more karma to be worth while (higher grade for masking, high conjuring skills, centering skills, etc). Those are just some quick littel examples. Imagine pulling out all those litte .25-.5 powers, over 3 initiation grades.
Dawnshadow
One power point vs One metamagic.

Personally, I don't think they're comperable. Most of the power points as a MW Adept don't help me especially much when mages are trying to kill me. Shielding does. Invoking helps tremendously against most opponents -- I don't dare conjure more than a force 4 spirit, but after making it greatform, it's useful.

Masking? Helpful. Don't know how much. Centering? Haven't taken it yet.

But IA, killing hands, all require as much karma or more as conjuring, for instance. What good is killing hands (Deadly) if you have no unarmed skill? Odds aren't good that you'll hit. Not at all. The fact that some metamagics require linked skills doesn't mean metamagics are less useful. Almost all adept abilities also require karma spent -- they'd to boost skills, not replace skills.
fistandantilus4.0
Sorry, my point was supposed to be more on how on some of the matemagics, such a centering, you ahve to take an entirely new skill. In my expereince at least, the character that takes killing hands started the game with unarmed combat 6, and is probably specialized. Where as , at least in my games, I have yet to see a character that started with a conjuring of 6 (4 or 5 usually).

Sorry I didn't explain that too well. Once again, just my point of view. I think a lot of it depend on how the character is played. What his strengths and weaknesses are. Obviously there's no point to a character without unarmed taking killing hands deadly, jsut as there's no point taking invoking without a conjuring skill. I just think that once you know what aspect of your character you're focusing on, it's overpowering to be able to put two points on to that each grade. I mean, group initation with an ordeal, 9 good karma? For 2 points? That could be 4 points of an attribute for 9 karma. Yes quickening can do that, but quickening can be dispelled, and detected, and grounded if you use those rules.
weblife
Fistandantilus, it sounds like you are used to a lowpower game..

In my group its very common to be at max unmodified ability in most attributes. This means that 1 PP only buys 1 attribute point, since its already at the unmod limit. - And if I went from 4 to 6 (as a human) it would cost me 22 Karma. If the stat is STR I could do it for 11, using anabolic steroids.

Secondly, most mages take conjuring 6, sorcery 6 and centering 6, at creation, in preparation of the Meta ability to come.

Thirdly, buying sensory power, while yes 4 powers for 1 PP is a bargain, its all stuff a norm with a helmet could match. Its not unbalancing.

Then theres boosting skills.. This one is strong. But is it stronger than the shielding meta, that adds your initiate grade to the TN of all hostile spells thrown at you?

Anyway, I think I've come to the conclusion that, yes the MW Adept is strong. But not unreasonably so. Atleast we all seem to agree that ordinary method of initiating is good. No silly pick a Meta and get no PP stuff (as the FAQ suggests).
The Question
QUOTE (weblife)
Atleast we all seem to agree that ordinary method of initiating is good. No silly pick a Meta and get no PP stuff (as the FAQ suggests).

I don't agree. A Magicians Way, to me, is the jack-of-all-trades of the magical world. The initiaton rules back this up: he can either develop magically or adeptly, not both.
Dawnshadow
The Question: According to the FAQ ruling.. No, he can't.

He can develop a halfstep on either path per initiation, and not at all along both. (Equivalently, it requires 2 initiations to take a single step along either path, according to the FAQ ruling)

Developing one step on one or the other:

He can take another point of magic power and a mage metamagic.
He can take a normal power point and adept metamagic

Because to say he's developing as one or the other.. mages always get metamagics, so do adepts, and adepts get multiple grades of centering. Stealth & Athletics, Ranged Combat, Melee combat.. and most other active skills, if I recall correctly.

Using Normal Initiation Rules:

He can develop one or the other.. or take part steps on both. (Magic Power and Adept Metamagic, Power Point and mage metamagic).

Denying them normal initiations isn't making them jack of all trades. It's making them dabbler of both. You're halving the benefits of initiation for them, and they can't just buy power points like a normal adept (unless people have disallowed that in their game)
The Question
But the Magicians Way Adept still increases his Magic points by one whichever option he chooses. So he can either choose to initiate as a standard Mage and increase his potential spell casting power, or choose the more limited method and just take a Power Point. Allowing a MWA to have Magic 7, 7 PP's and a Meta Magic after their first initiation is unbalanced: neither straight Adepts or Mages get this level of advancement, so why should the hybrid?
Dawnshadow
....Huh?

His magic rating operates like a normal adepts. His spellcasting depends solely on his level of Magic Power -- which requires a power point.

That's why people who argue strict rules say MW adepts always get a power point, and have the option of taking a second power point instead of a metamagic. Because they're adepts, they always get a power point when they increase in magic rating.

Most people just ignore it entirely and go with standard adept initiation, because it means that they can boost their spellcasting or adept powers, and take a metamagic. They can't increase both effectively -- closest they can do is take a geased point of magic power and a .25 power point power.
The Question
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
....Huh?

His magic rating operates like a normal adepts. His spellcasting depends solely on his level of Magic Power -- which requires a power point.


Read the section in MitS about Initiation closely. Adepts gain the Power Point as well as the magic point, not instead of. At no point anywhere in the book does it state that MWA do not get the increase in magic. Therefore, they can run 7PP's worth of powers after initiation due to their magic attribute of 7, or cast spells at +1 of the level they payed for in magical ability (which is effectively another PP).

Of course, thats my reading of the rule, yours may vary. However, I think its entirely reasonable that they either get +1 Magic and +1 PP or +1 Magic and a Metamagic. They either initiate as a standard Mage or as a less effective Adept.
Sharaloth
Question, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.

When a MWA initiates, they gain a power point, just like any other adept, to spend as they see fit, including getting another point of Magic Power to increase their Magic rating for spells and conjuring. The text offered gives them the option of gaining a SECOND power point instead of a metamagic.

What you seem to be saying is that initiation automatically increases Magic Power. It does not, that has to be gained with a Power Point from the new overall magic attribute rating.

Hell, I don't know what you're saying, the more I read over your statements, the more confused with them I become.

QUOTE
Adepts gain the Power Point as well as the magic point, not instead of. At no point anywhere in the book does it state that MWA do not get the increase in magic. Therefore, they can run 7PP's worth of powers after initiation due to their magic attribute of 7

Correct. A MWA who initiates once has a total of 7 Power Points worth of powers, just like any other adept.

QUOTE
or cast spells at +1 of the level they payed for in magical ability (which is effectively another PP).

No, this makes no sense. If they used their new Power Point to gain another level of Magical Power then they have an effective spellcaster/conjuring magic rating of one higher, yes, but not as "effectively another Power Point", as the Power Point they just gained itself. Understand now?


Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (The Question @ Apr 30 2005, 01:55 PM)
Read the section in MitS about Initiation closely.  Adepts gain the Power Point as well as the magic point, not instead of.  At no point anywhere in the book does it state that MWA do not get the increase in magic.  Therefore, they can run 7PP's worth of powers after initiation due to their magic attribute of 7, or cast spells at +1 of the level they payed for in magical ability (which is effectively another PP).

Yes, but what you're missing here is the text of Magical Ability, which says that the MW adept uses mage-magic at a level equal to his Magical Power adept power, *not* his actual Magic Rating. Sure his Magic goes up either way; he just can't use it for very much other than max rating on his adept powers and becoming more vulnerable to Magic Loss. The MW adept's Magic rating is different from the effective rating for casting spells, spell pool, conjuring, etc: the second one doesn't necessarily go up when the first one does, either, though you can spend the power point on Magical Ability and do so.

OTOH, the big reason I think the FAQ wanted to limit MW adepts is because they saw mage metamagics as generally more powerful than adept metamagics. Look at Invoking or Channeling as opposed to say Divining for example.
The Question
After re-reading MitS, I have to agree with Sharaloth and Eyeless in that "effective" Magic is not explicitly stated as being improved with initiation. However, this is probably something I'd houserule so that an Adept who has spent three points on magic would have an "effective" rating of four after initiation, then the option of PP or Metamagic. This seems fair to me.

Apoligies if my misreading of the rule has caused anyone confusion.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (weblife)
Fistandantilus, it sounds like you are used to a lowpower game..


I like to think of it as 'balanced'

I still say one or the other. I see no reason that they should effectivbely get the best of both worlds, or twice the power of a normal adept, just becuase they paid 10 more build points. Otherwise, who wouldn't just make every adept a MW, and never bother increasing their spellcasting, just put it all in to their adept powers?

If you're playing a (IMO) very high powered game, or you just want it that way, fine, whatever works. But it doesn't seem at all balanced to me.
The Question
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
If you're playing a (IMO) very high powered game, or you just want it that way, fine, whatever works. But it doesn't seem at all balanced to me.

Would you say that having the "effective" magic rating increase by one and then allow them a PP or Metamagic would be fair?
fistandantilus4.0
yes.

The way I run it at least, an adpet's power points are just the application of their magic rating. At character gen, PC has magic 6, PP6. When they initiate, they're magic goes up 1. They can use that for their adept powers, or their spellcasting. Hope I'm explaining it so that it makes sense.
The Question
And THEN do you apply the Power Point or Metamagic rule? Because thats the way Im currently leaning...

So to specify, at Initiation a Magicans Way Adept gets;

An increase to Magic Level AND Effective Magic Level
1 Power Point OR 1 Metamagic
Cain
I wouldn't.

Look, the "effective" Magic rating is bought with PP, just like any other adept power. When an adept of any stripe initiates, they [usually] gain 1 Magic point, which translates into 1 PP, which can be used to buy any adept power they have access to.

By giving physmages an increase to their Magical Power *and* their normal magic rating, they gain twice as much as a normal mage. Heck, they could put both points into Magical Power, if they felt like it. If you allow that, they could rapidly outsrip normal mages!

Letting physmages use the normal initiation rules isn't bad, or game-breaking in any fashion. Giving them twice as much gain as any Awakened character is just silly.
The Question
Your right Cain, I got so confused by this whole topic that I actually forgot what my initial position was! Going back through it, I am of the opinion that the FAQ ruling seems fair enough.
Dawnshadow
How is halving the benefits of initiation fair?

They are inherently less powerful as an adept then a pure adept -- at any equivalent level of initiation, they have fewer power points, barring magic loss (As one point MUST be spent on magic power).

They are inherently less powerful then any mage at an equivalent initiation level -- they cannot have equivalent effective magic ratings and astral perception without taking 6 geasa.

How is making their initiation worth half as much fair? How does it do anything BUT cripple them? In any type of contest between magician's, the metamagic techniques are of vital importance. But if the Magician's Way adept takes any, he loses out on the power points he needs to improve his abilities -- including his ability to cast higher level spells.

Two 3rd grade initiates -- we'll even make the Magician's Way adept have 6 points of magic power, all geasa'd to something that doesn't influence this fight. He's done his meditation or whatever. He's also taken astral perception (under a geas). 6 power points spent. He's initiated 3 times, taking metamagics. The mage throws force 9 spells without drain, and he learned them with his astral quests. The Adept? Same metamagics. Can't even come close to throwing the spells. Now, if he takes the power points instead, throws them into magic power, he can throw the spells -- if he can learn them. And he's slaughtered because he's got no metamagic techniques.

He's not even a CHALLENGE. Not even remotely close to comperable -- and his abilities are geared to take him as close to mage as possible.

Compared to an adept.. taking the 5.25 power points of non-magic power (the most he can theoretically take, geas'ing the magic power).. He will ALWAYS have fewer power points then another adept. It will just get worse over initiations, because he needs to spend initiation grades just to get the metamagics adepts have.

That's the two extremes -- weighted as heavily to adept and as heavily to mage as possible. Going somewhere in the middle, they can hold their own -- barely -- at creation, but are horrendously outstriped as the other two initiate. They need double the karma to get the same benefits.
Fortune
QUOTE (The Question)
Your right Cain, I got so confused by this whole topic that I actually forgot what my initial position was! Going back through it, I am of the opinion that the FAQ ruling seems fair enough.

And that would be leaning too far in the other direction. Normal Initiation rules should apply to Magical Way Adepts just as it does to everyone else.
The Question
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (The Question @ May 2 2005, 05:46 AM)
Your right Cain, I got so confused by this whole topic that I actually forgot what my initial position was!  Going back through it, I am of the opinion that the FAQ ruling seems fair enough.

And that would be leaning too far in the other direction. Normal Initiation rules should apply to Magical Way Adepts just as it does to everyone else.

Well, now I just don't know what to think eek.gif
Fortune
The way I see it, there are three options.

The first is from the FAQ, and basically hamstrings MW Adepts in relation to any other awakened characters, making them worth less even though they cost more (in BP).

The second is the way suggested earlier, where the Adept automatically gains a bonus to Magic Power, plus the choice of either (another) Power Point or a Metamagic. This has a very large potential for abuse, and lead to some quite overpowered MW Adepts.

The third option is the middle ground, whereby a MW Adept Initiated in the exact same manner as any other awakened character. This past option seems to be the fairest, at least in my opinion.
Apathy
I lean toward agreeing with fistandantilus. If you allow MW adepts to get exactly the same benifits from initiation as either Normal Adepts or Mages, then they become a 'favored class', since they have the flexibility to chose between either class, and no compensating penalty to balance out that flexibility. On the other hand, the existing rules make advancement of any kind difficult for the MWadept.

I'd like to hear suggestions that gives MW adepts slightly more advancement potential than they have now, but still leaves them less magically able than either mages or adepts at those group's specialties (to compensate for the other groups' lack of flexibility).

For example, I might allow PM adepts in my game to advance along the lines set below in option 3 (of Fortune's post) if I made their initiation a little more expensive (perhaps not letting them join magical groups).
Dawnshadow
Apathy.. they will ALWAYS be less then an equivalent initiation grade of Magician or Adept. There's no way for them to avoid it.

They can't astrally project. They have to spend 2 power points (1.5 under a geas) to have astral perception. Serious handicap as a mage.

They will always have at least 1 fewer power points then an adept. They have to spend at least 1 on magic power.

Adding further penalties on top of those, well... you could do it. But why? FAQ ruling about buying power points aside (didn't they read MITS? It says in the Magician's Way Adept section that they can't buy power points like that.. obviously the rule is intended to be used BY ADEPTS using the rules from MITS...) Magician's Way adepts have a whole other problem.

Everyone compares them against a single mage, or a single adept. Stop and think about what happens when you compare them to a mage AND an adept.

They have to initiate twice to stay comparable to both. More than double the cost -- slightly increased benefits for some powers, but it becomes a lot harder to advance. Over a campaign where the magician and adept reach grade 4 initiate... the magician's way adept, to stay at the same level of power and skill, comparatively, as before, has to initiate 8 times -- and spend as much in skills as both combined. But.. they do not get double the karma.
audun
QUOTE (Apathy)
If you allow MW adepts to get exactly the same benifits from initiation as either Normal Adepts or Mages, then they become a 'favored class', since they have the flexibility to chose between either class, and no compensating penalty to balance out that flexibility.

MW adepts are penalized for their flexibility. They have no astral projection and has to buy astral perception as a separate power for 2 PP. They have to split up their magic rating between adept powers and magic, beeing less able at both. I'd call that compensating penalties to balance out the flexibility. Isn't that enough?
Apathy
QUOTE
MW adepts are penalized for their flexibility. They have no astral projection and has to buy astral perception as a separate power for 2 PP. They have to split up their magic rating between adept powers and magic, beeing less able at both. I'd call that compensating penalties to balance out the flexibility. Isn't that enough?

In my opinion, no.

Normal adepts also don't get astral projection, and have to pay for astral perception. So, for the cost of 10 build points and one power point, they can cast spells (many of which work fine at level 1), conjure/banish spirits, use spell defense, bond foci at char-gen, build wards, etc. They're the only phys ad types that will ever have the option of learning shielding (one of the most useful tricks in combat-heavy environments), or any of the other mage-specific initiatory abilities.
Dawnshadow
In other words, you're considering Magician's Way Adepts to have massive boosts as Adepts, instead of handicaps as mages.

That's not a fair view of it, though, because mages -- who at the same build point cost, get even more abilities -- and properly used, astral projection and free astral perception are immensely beneficial. Most of the adept abilities are also duplicated by spells -- not all, but most. Killing hands -- death touch. Attribute boost/improved attribute -- increase attribute/sustaining focus. Reflexes obviously. Mystic armour is worse then an armour spell. I would say, more than are useful at force 1, but hey, I'm someone that's said a force 1 light manabolt can be useful, if you've got the sorcery skill to back it up. Force 1 armour though...

Personally, I think it would be rather easy to sit down and make a mage character that can do just as much as an adept, powers wise, and still have a large amount of other abilities.

Lets see.. increase reflexes +3 (1), increased quickness (3), armour (3).. 3 sustaining foci... and you've got equivalent to 8 power points. And all those other spells...

Now.. looking at the magician's way adept, with 1 power point in magic power:
spell pool at char gen: 4 + magic power/3, max. (int 6, will 6: 4 spell pool)
ability to banish spirits: nearly nonexistant-- surefire way to get burned out.
ability to learn high force spells easily: completely nonexistant (no astral quests)
Apathy
That sounds like an argument that all adepts, not just MW adepts, are underpowered compared to mages, or conversely that mages are comparatively overpowered.

I'd actually tend to agree with this, but tend to think it's more a problem with the balancing of the mages than the balancing of the adepts (or MW adepts).

If you changed initiation in your games to work the same for MW adepts as it did for any other mage/adept, do you think power-gamers would have any reason to play straight physical adepts?
Dawnshadow
Yep. Playing one with standard initiation, one other PC is an adept.

Very different characters, and the adept was more dangerous in many ways -- and has the advantage, because we tend to disregard the FAQ, so the adept just buys power points now.. MW adept can't, and has got serious problems improving magically because of it.

In fact, only reason I'm playing a magician's way adept is because it fits the character I had in mind better -- he didn't HAVE all the SR mage abilities, but he did have supernatural physical abilities. If I'd wanted to play the power-game perspective, it would likely have been pure mage, or pure adept. I'd need another hundred karma in stats and initiations to be able to match the other adept in anything but a swordfight -- and if I didn't have the ambidexterity, I wouldn't even match him there. And any of the NPC mages involved can clean my clock. Thouroughly. Shielding isn't enough of an edge, not at 4th grade initiate.
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