That were his words. No idea what it will mean (I am also pretty sure every edition change had some retcons in it)


Of course it has civilian users. That was for Shadowruning.
The corps are back to owning the Matrix. There is a free layer of it for the poor, but there is hardly anything interesting in it (I guess mostly advertisement and illegal stuff when you know where to look). The rest is controlled by the corps and pay per use and when you are hacking stuff its a race against the clock. The corps will notice and they will fry you when you stay to long (or call GOD to do it).


His exact words when he was asked about foreshadowing stuff in 5E (He wasn't allowed to say much)



If someone wants to thank me help me do some hacking and solve the commcode riddle for the hidden stories. I am stuck

Oh, I listened to it. But it's only 45 minutes long, and it would take me that long to write up the bullet points. Why should I double my time just so someone else doesn't have to spend theirs?

Sorry, but not like these guys get paid to do this. This is a fan production. Listening to them is supporting them.

Bull

...oops. Headin' back to fix ('s what I get for going on DS the first thing when I get up from bed).

This is one of my issues with cyberpunk, to be honest. I just don't buy that the corps could get it that way and keep it that way - soon as someone else establishes a different network/layer/grid that provides open access, the whole thing falls apart.

Who would have the interest and money to create a free matrix (against the megas wishes)?
I guess there will be localized anarchy nets here and there with self build hardware, but nothing with access to sensitive areas or even citywide access (lets not talk about a global net).

Let's compare a podcast to its direct transcription. In a text, people willing to get to the point skip through the chatter until they get what they're looking for. In an audio, they have to take it at the talkers' pace.

A dramatic further increase? The world in SR is already divided into distinct classes: the SINless, who are well below the poverty line; the low ring of the corp workers, who are poor, but make the ends meet more or less; the corp citizens, who do not live in luxury, but make a decent living (and they are the closest there is to a middle class in any noticeable numbers); and the movers and shakers who make billions.
How exactly can you widen the income gap? Plunge the corp workers into poverty? Move the corp citizens from decent living to being poor?


I believe the splats mostly had retcons, albeit rather minor ones, ones I'd just as well write off as simple small errors (or corrections to make the fluff from different parts of the system work together).

Doesn't make much sense to me as of now.
Suppose you work for a corp and want to buy a second-hand car. Can you do that? Supposedly, you can. How is it possible to distinguish your search queries from the search queries of a hacker doing Data Search? Who is analyzing the trillions of queries done daily?
Now, suppose you're a telecommuting corp office worker. Each morning you put on the trodes and spend 14 hours sorting papers. What is to distinguish your connection to the central office node from a hacker's?

The anarchists (who in SR run whole cities). The trid pirates and the soft crackers. The data haven owners. The criminals, including global syndicates with a lot of clout. A few of those need global access to their networks.

Lots and lots of people. And they'd probably be able to do it cheaper because they're not trying to force in all of those controls. ANd you better believe it would be global.

Technology like this simply cannot be controlled like that. I've got a pretty good idea as to what would go on if something like this started to happen in the modern day, actually...

Then I guess they're going to have a significantly harder time staying afloat, or pay off a LOT of money to get the owner of a grid to look the other way...which even then, may not last that long.

Yeah, not the way that would work. They'd make their own damn grid if it was the best way to do it (Fun fact: the TOR network is basically this exact thing, and there are some major world powers who would love to see such anonymyzing technology go away; it is simply utterly beyond their capabilities to cause that to happen. Compromising the TOR network and getting at people's identities would effectively require ownership of a large number of the gateways, in which case a new network would spring up. Stuff like this simply cannot be contained or controlled. Ironically, TOR was actually originally a project of the US Navy that got thrown out to the open source community - because they knew full well that the most talented people for that sort of work weren't and aren't going to be found working for a government or major corporation, at least not in such a capacity/) - and there's not a damn thing as could stop them.

For these sorts of people, it wouldn't be a business venture. They'd be doing it because of a belief that it needs to be done. Truth be told, there's a lot of run opportunities in something like that.

In fact, for a lower grade example: What would the megas do about Anonymous?

Actually, as has been demonstrated, owning a single TOR gateway allows you to compromise the users, and the longer you run it, the larger percentage of them.
That said, with wireless matrix being peer-to-peer and able to switch network frequencies (see Unwired upgrades for commlinks), controlling it is next to impossible already.

What I have seen/heard so far from the new matrix the corps would likely requiring any node to broadcast its identification (and later install this into the hardware itself) and when they detect that there is something wrong cut that node off from the matrix.
As for anonymous, they would deal with them like with any hacker. Send ICE after them when detecting him while going through the logs and undoing everything the hacker did.
They might also monitor all devices for illegal software/modifications.
And completely independent grids? Thats something Shadowrunners can handle.

Heh. Calling Anonymous a hacker. You don't quite understand the structure (such as it is) of Anonymous, do you? Their membership is anyone who says their a member, and all in all it's just a large group of people working towards similar ideas. It might not be as effective as a more directed group, but nothing could ever destroy them. For every member you deal with, you create 3 more. It's really the larger difficulty with trying to "destroy" decentralized movements. There's no target to strike. Even if you manage to get all current members, in a week there will be more.

You're also assuming it's possible to undo everything they did. You can't "undo" a data dump. If it goes undetected long enough, you can't undo file manipulation. You can't undo properly done file erasure (short of Resonance Realms searches). There's a lot of stuff that cannot be undone - you can try to deal with the consequences, but no matter what you do, it HAPPENED.

And what do the corps do if they don't have the capability to cut them off? Because if it came down to it it would end up being a second Matrix. There are more obstacles to that route, but they could be overcome. Alternatively, they could just make everything look just right - there's no such thing as an authentication method that cannot be fooled; it is not possible for one to exist.

And if runners took out the independent grids, there'd be more in a week.

To my knowledge, there're no retcons. There are some changes (Such as Commlinks being locked out of hacking), so some things might fall through the cracks (But my old Commlink was set for hacking! And now it can't? The frag?) but no actual continuity retcons. If, for example, there was a change in how Stick-n-Shock worked, some people might call it a retcon, others wouldn't.

So, the caveat about no significant retcon.



No, but the middle lifestyle is being squeezed. Some claw up, most fall down. Expect more focus on people with a low-level lifestyle instead of the middle class (who are vanishing) and the wealthy. Remember, the average pay in Seattle is 28,000 a year, barely above the 24,000 you need to stay at Low the entire time. Get a medical bill (1000/day for intensive care in 4th, 500 day for normal care) and that buffer goes fast, let alone a car accident, a vacation, etc.



Of the Matrix? Tons! Their commlinks log in and go around, doing stuff, letting them talk and shop and update their P2P profile, teh works!

But if you want to hack the system, you'll need a Cyberdeck for that, and those are quite illegal.

Civillian users are quite safe, as the corps make sure of that. One way of making sure it's safe? Hunt down deckers. For those who use it in illegal ways, the danger level is gonna jump.

SHould have been specified more is all.

Technically impossible. There are literally billions of devices, and you can rest assured a few of their owners won't be inclined to cooperate.


Haha, and how many of those three will be able to hack anything? Activism requires no skills, hacker actions require professionals highly skilled in a rare field.

It doesn't matter if a hacker calls himself Anonymous or something else. The measures are the same. Detect him, ICE him, undo the damage he did.
And a 2nd matrix? No way. Some localized matrix like construct with content completely uninteresting to a normal person? Yes.
Everything else requires massive investments, self build hardware and mad skills to keep GOD away.



They won't have a choice. Want to access the matrix legally? Upload the new protocol and join the new corp controlled matrix. If you don't want that you need to build yourself a cyberdeck and be on the constant lookout for ICE.

This sounds adequate.

I welcome the focus on the lower classes, because the talk that SR is somehow "not cyberpunk" simply for runners being able to make big money, and the books often focusing on the life of people with money, got boring.
However, medical bills capable of ruining anyone's life have been present in 4E, as well (well, I imagine some corps provide health plans to the employees they value, but still), and the books already repeat that the middle class has vanished several times. What is changing, exactly?

That sounds adequate.

The WMI matrix is p2p, remember? Everything you need to establish a network are the network-capable devices themselves. Sure, you won't have the backbone lines, so ping will drastically increase with distance thanks to the increase in hop count, but that's it.

First, let me repeat that controlling billions of devices in any depth in real-time is simply technically impossible, because it'd require computational power comparable to a fraction of theirs, combined (say, about a percept of it).
Second, as for forcing the move, "We think we'll stay with our current infrastructure". And it will still work with any devices it has been working with so far.
What will the big guys do about it? Send GOD after you? That might help for a single perpetrator (not if it's an AAA we're talking about though, and I doubt it's working on an AA, either). Against mass refusal, it's simply not working.

Fatum: Skills can be learned. Besides, it's an example - representative of the idea that enforcement measures would be counterproductive.

Ixal: You're missing the point. The fact that you get that hacker doesn't MATTER. Because there are more, and you just motivated others to join up or to learn. And yes, infrastructure would be a hurdle. But only that. Easiest thing to do would be to piggyback on some kind of existing infrastructure, but it would be far from the only way - especially since Shadowrun already has mesh networks. Hell, mesh botnets would do the job for you very, very nicely, and it would be nigh impossible to detect.

The most likely model would be something like a combination of the TOR network and signal-passing botnets, combined with retrans units in the right places - and heavy, heavy, heavy redundancy, if for not other reason than 26 people having 52 ideas on where the retrans unit should be (hint: it would wind up in all 52 places). The tech is there, and the corps cannot make it go away no matter how much they try.

Your argument requires two things. First, that GOD have an impossible level of ability. Second, that GOD have the best people on an individual level bar none; and organization like that never would. The simple fact is that the mindset that produces and drives the most talented people in such a field is entirely incompatible with working for a group like that.

Learning these skills requires a lot of time and a certain talent. It's a much harder and lengthier process than catching a hacker.
Snatch the hackers faster than new ones can be taught (or rather, can teach themselves), and you get a relatively hacker-free network. Snatch the hackers with the most skills, and you lower the average level of the black hat community, and make it harder for the newcomers to learn. Look at the modern scene: the real problems of infosecurity come from the black hats who aim their attacks at the least protected devices, personal ones, building botnets. Attacks against well-protected targets are in no way commonplace.

But as it is unlikely that a device can access both the real matrix and any secondary matrix those two would be completely separate with the 2nd matrix couldn't access any legal services. This is doable for a small area, a anarchy community for example, but to build a global grid you need a lot of nodes to cover ground. And unless you have a lot of money it is unlikely that someone can create such a global net, especially as the Corps would send runners after high value nodes like transmitter stations.



Don't forget that the entry requirement for hacking will also be higher as you now need a cyberdeck. So first the newcomers have to learn how to build hardware before they can start to hack or obtain a cyberdeck from shadow sources (and it will take some time till they are churned out at a speed which makes them affordable for activist beginners).

The hardware is already there, it's not turning into pumpkins at the strike of a clock. And a single device with high signal rating can easily keep dozens of kilometers wireless-enabled. You don't even need to build anything.

Except that they can literally grab all the hardware they need at scrapyards.

Also, I think we can assume that runners would be involved on both sides - especially those interested in maintaining places in which they can remain hidden, AKA every runner with half a brain.

And it wouldn't be hard to set up an interchange protocol between the two. Not hard at all.

And it would take time for a person of no skill to become a competent hacker. However, that's not going to be the profile of everyone involved - even today, engineers have to learn a little programming, for example, which would give them a base to start with. As for getting hardware together, that's not a horribly difficult proposition - probably a little more so than the current "expensive lego" style of custom computer, but not that difficult.

"Dozens of kilometers" doesn't build a global net. You still need hundreds/thousands of those devices. And that doesn't address the problem of oceans. Is it doable with enough resources? Yes. Without the corps noticing? Unlikely.
And who has so much money and is willing to do that when it means being exposed?

And there is still the question of why. Some anarchist communities connecting themselves over a secondary matrix? Ok, sounds reasonable. But for the average wageslave such a second matrix would be entirely useless as he can't access any services with it. So it wouldn't in any way threaten the megas new matrix.



That remains to be seen. If it were just a matter of simply creating a protocol one wouldn't need decks.

Decks are for the power, as I read it, more than anything else. You need better hardware to hack.

Going from one style of network to another couldn't ever be anything other than a protocol - you might have to design and build it from scratch beginning at the physical layer, but that's still all it would be.

And you don't need to set up all the infrastructure when you can just piggyback on what already exists. Note that you can only pick up on transmissions in SR4 at the sender, receiver, or some kind of choke point. You can use this same method to piggyback on the existing infrastructure in a way that is, by canon, impossible to detect. Add to this the notion of a mesh-net (a bot net used for this specific purpose) along with TOR style gateways (which would, realistically, be entirely replaceable - again, all the hardware you need is at freaking scrapyards), and you've got a seriously robust network that they're not going to be able to take down without taking out their own.

From the story so far it looks like the only change the new matrix brings are new protocols, not new hardware (new hardware produced certainly has more safeguards though). But even old comlinks can access the new matrix and yet are still incapable of hacking anything.

My impression is that hacking requires more power, now. Otherwise, all you'd need is a commlink where the "safeties" have been removed or overridden.

Remember the Storm Front story


Something might have been said about comlinks in SR5 in the podcast, but I don't remember (was old news to me). I might relisten part 2 for it.

There are billions of them out there already, dispensed around the world. To build a global network you just need hosts in range from each other at any given point.

Which doesn't exist thanks to islands, ships, and high-signal devices being easily available.

Participating in such a network would not even require installing a program on your commlink. Just don't upgrade to the new matrix.
I've listed interested sides up there in the thread, a few of them possess massive resource pools.

Because no corp is willing to hand over more of its authority than absolutely necessary, and no corp wants Big Ten snoops in its network. No runner, career criminal, or spook wants his network interactions monitored.
The concern is, of course, much less pressing for the corp drones, but those of them who deal on the side (and that makes quite a few of them) have a vested interest in these interactions remaining undetected.

The new matrix seems to be a joint venture between the megas. So while there will be not 100% cooperation don't expect the usual amount of fighting between them. GOD seems to have universal access, and thats the reason corps are a bit hesitant to call them. And inside their own layer corps have 100% control.
Upgrading to the new protocol seems to be mandatory and is done without consent it seems (See De La Mars interview in StormFront)
You listed some parties which might set up a localized net for their own use, but they neither have the resources or will to create a global net and make it free for everyone. And they are quite unwilling to cooperate.
They will at most create a local shadow net for their own use and maybe communication between such zones if convenient. But nothing which would resemble a world wide grid or would actually be a threat to the corp controlled matrix as it would pretty much exclusively be used for criminal content.

I'm still curious where GOD is even getting a percentage point of the processing power actually needed to monitor even a trivial fraction of the billions of packets per second that even a single corp network feeds to the public Matrix, but that's me.

GOD having universal access means any corp outside of the Big Ten loses from participation.

Except there are global forces among them.
Let's go with a precedent: FidoNet. It wasn't supported by corps and governments, not even criminal syndicates for all we know, yet it was global, and its content wasn't somehow purely criminal.


Aha, I've mentioned this above.

GOD doesn't monitor everything, the protocols (and likely agents) are doing the work (Probably filtering out everything not conforming. Another reason why I think the protocols are very intrusive.) And if an alarm is triggered the corps are coming after you and the race against the clock starts. Maybe even when a cyberdeck is detected (because its stealth fails or whatever).

Which would be protocol issues - remember how they got around it? One of the posters noticed that some programs worked, and managed to stitch some compatible code together from a number of old programs. Pure protocol problem.

And as for "filtering out everything non-conforming", not conforming to what? Catching hackers that way would require an intelligence - anything else, they could just fool 100% of the time the instant they know how it works.

If it were just the protocol, FastJack wouldn't have needed to build a deck.
But who knows? We are all just speculating.
The only thing we really know is that there are new protocols, the megas "take back" the matrix, hacking requiring specialized hardware as the normal commlinks are incapable of hacking and that (the intention in SR5 is that) hacking is a race against the clock before the corps get you as it is infeasible/not possible to fight them off.
It was mentioned in the podcast that their idea was that hacking something is temporary. The corps will find out that you did something and repair the damage eventually (no timeframe given). So you/your team has to make the most out of the time where your changes are undetected.

And I still need to sit down and listen to the podcast, but as presented it sounds like something of a questionable idea - it's just one of those things in cyberpunk that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, remember that the Matrix isn't the Internet. It works differently. 4th ed used a lot of real-world design to make them similar, so more players could understand it, but, the whole thing's designed in a fashion that's kind of alien, due to how it works. I mean, geeze, it's making your brain hallucinate so that you can chuck a cream pie at a robot dog and melt it, thus opening a door in a building without an alarm going off.

That's messed up.

The matrix is in part 2.
Basically they wanted to make the corps more oppressive even in the matrix and I guess shorten the time matrix runs take (they didn't say it explicitly, but there were hits of that. Or my tired mind is making things up).
What was mentioned (twice I think) was the race against the clock thing.



That was also mentioned in the podcast. The matrix will not work like a real network/like real computers and that people who know how computers work have to suspend their disbelieve on that. Here, style and vision was more important than how technology works in reality.

Something that Mark mentions in the interview, and it's 100% true.

WHen we sat down to write the new Matrix, one thing that was decided early: THis is a fictional construct, and real world computing has very little bearing on it. It's not designed to be realistic. It's designed to facilitate gameplay and to allow for good stories.

So for future reference, anyone who says anything even close to "Well in real life we can do x...", their comments or arguments are automatically invalidated as far as I'm concerned.

Bull

Are you purposefully trying to find reasons to beat me with my own cane?

YOu know better, CanRay. You know exactly what we're doing with SR5, so pipe down

And really, like I need a reason at this point.Sim Dreams alone provides all the excuses I need.

We did (and still do) prioritize playability over realism, but we did a lot of work to keep it all plausible. Abstracting the rules and doing that other thing we did that I'm not sure I can mention yet made it a lot easier to keep it plausible and playable.

So some comparison to real life will be fair, I think.

That was already pretty clear: Commlinks will be what used to be called cyberterminals, namely the devices for the general public, and decks will be what decks used to be: commlinks/terminals illegally modified with stealth chips which do not leave the legally mandated datatrail. Thus, the illegal hardware which became illegal software in 4th becomes hardware again.

@Bull:

There is a difference between "not possible in real life" and "completely against all logic". A worldwide scatternet with arbitrary bandwidth and no noticeable latency is the former, that the anarchists and malcontents in the Barrens abandon this tech and happily submit to the corporate yoke would be a clear case of the latter.

I wonder if decks will be all-custom underground-y Deckmeister jobs now or they also bring back the (kind of odd, given their alleged massive illegality) megacorp produced high end massive cost cyberdecks.

The podcast makes it sounds like it's going to be the former; of course, I don't see why there can't be a black market for pre-made cyberdecks that a prospective decker can go to if they don't have the time/resources to build one themselves.

RPG rulesystems are written to help consistently simulate worlds with the laws of physics similar to our own, other than in explicitly stated internally consistent exceptions (like, say, the existence of magic in SR).
If a rulesystem only describes some specifically taken cases, and the rest of the possibilities you can think of are thrown out as simply never possible, it is worthless, because it can't be used for its goal.

I don't see why there can be a market for pre-made cyberdecks by large brands - GOD isn't a sufficient customer base, at least not for the different powered models like in old editions (raning from a starter deck to a high-end high-karma deck). I'd much prefer the all-deckmeister approach, it is much more internally consistent with what the podcast says.


Are you referring only to the Matrix or the world at large? And what about in-world consistency? ("If I can buy a Fairlight Excalibur that is small enough to fit into my crainium, why does it weigh 5 kg when not a skull-deck?")

Somebody's got to make decks for security spiders and GOD operatives, I imagine.

1) "Corp Produced Decks" exist because corporations need Deckers too. They don't sell them in stores. But they need to arm their own people with the same tools the hackers are using.

2) In-World consitancy is very important. And I'm not saying that there will never be any real world parallels. There certainly are. But the Matrix is designed as a game-world model of the internet, or any computer system as it exists today. It's a unique thing.

Bull

Hmm, no, can't agree with you here, Bull. I'd say it depends on how and why someone brings up "in real life we can ____".

If they're asking, in essence: "how difficult would it be to model that in the game, and stay playable?" .... I don't see a problem with it.

An argument cannot be rendered invalid just because it contains a particular phrase.