The short answer is by addressing similar but fictional questions with plausible solutions. Consider Make Room, Make Room (or Soylent Green). Shadowrun's got racism with metatypes, religion with magic (e.g. what happens when the world changes from "everybody's beliefs are equally unprovable and there are no miracles" to "everybody's beliefs are equally evident and miracles happen all the time"?), classism with Barrens and squatters and wage slaves, political corruption with ... well, political corruption, but they're fictional politicians.

The long answer is "the Shadowrun talk I'm giving at Gen Con goes into more detail about this so you should stop by." =i)

Gay marriage can be easily addressed in Shadowrun by raising the question of legally recognized marriages involving spirits, AIs, or ghouls.

That is why much of mainstream scifi always ages so badly and has such shoddy production values (and is so tiresome to read). Also, Shadowrun is Cyberpunk, which is closer to Noir in themes and narrative, than SciFi. In Cyberpunk, technologically and socially induced alienation and the human element in progress are at the narrative's core; generally, the mood is technology-negative (and generally moody to grimdark). Science Fiction puts technology before the protagonists (often painfully so) and usually is bubblingly optimistic about technology as solution for every problem. The mood generally is very optimistic, often with nationalism and political discourse why this or that social system is inherently superior thrown in (like Asimow, Heinlein, Crichton or Chernychevsky just loved to do).

And racism, alienation, social divides and the problems they cause - those are universal themes that have been again and again examined in human literature, through the ages. Putting in, say, recent political events or extapolations (like retconning China as a global superpower because 80s/90s Japanophobia gave way to today's Sinophobia in the West) is putting in the day's politics and would feel really badly crammed into the setting (the same can be said about SR4's Matrix, which was the 00s Internet with some magic).


Eurowars antiques and especially 10 Mercs and Stormfront in parts spectacularily failed on this. The Fucking Mary-Sue Corps parts. Keep the nationalism in your pants, please. It's not even about politics, it's just dangerously close to pro-racist prose, and not even in narration as a narrative part of view of an unrelaible narrator (which would be acceptable), but presented as objective in-game reality.


It has been defined as 'not a thing' in several older books, most notably Missions (the 3rd Edition book) and Sprawl Survival Guide, and hinted at way back with the UCAS switching to an entirely secular, contractual "whatever you agree to" marriage model in, I think, Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America. It's a part of the setting, unless someone wants to write in the CAS (or Aztlan, or Quebec) enforcing a religious definition of what marriages should look like because that's technically a blank to fill in (it would not make much sense though). Nevermind this is a rather America specific issue that doesn't necessarly hold the same rant potential elsewhere.


Well, except for a few ... slips in recent time. I hope they will remain that. But generally, that's the right attitude, and I hope the line will continue to stick to that approach (and maybe keep the slips down more).


You can try and set up something similar with crossracial sex in Shadowrun, but I sort of doubt this could get as much in-world reaction as issues relevant to about 5 to 10 per cent of the human population to soem extent. Plus, you'd need to keep in mind that spirits and dragons are not just human beings with slightly different sexual interests. They're alien creatures and come with a variety of means to make consensual sex - which in Shadowrun is the baseline of legality as by Sprawl Survival Guide, as in much of Western legislation - doubtful at best. The more you examine the issue, the different it really is, Aaron. And the more propped up and soapboxy seems using it as a vessel to discuss something else. Treating an established parallel world setting as a soapbox for the author's own opinions usually makes for crappy writing. See the Fucking Mary-Sue Corps.


Fluff and crap rules don't mix well. Never have, never will. You know what else lurks in that can of worms, don't you? Besides, even then, what would you do with your one forge? Compete with megacorps at 1 item an hour? I'm sure they're shaking. If you do this large scale? Someone will sabotage you. Probably hired Shadowrunners. Because the corps aren't restricted by anything to keep you down, and if it means killing you, tough luck.

Biblically, marriage is an institution between King Solomon and 700 women. Who were his property. And whom he cheated on.

Not cool, dude.

I didn't mean to imply that science fiction only dealt with contemporary issues. While it's true that some sci-fi has lost its relevance, a lot of it retains meaning even after decades (over a century in some cases). Herbert's Dune's themes of control over one's own destiny still hold, as does Star Trek's weighing of one person against society ("City on the Edge of Forever," not the movies) and even Verne's stance on the loss of rugged individualism in an increasingly socialized world.

Cyberpunk may be noir, but it's still science fiction. Works like Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and Neuromancer, with their discussion of what it means to be human, are still quite relevant. The Ware Tetralogy talks about the rapid adoption of new technology (data collation by governments, anyone?), Diamond Age has its individual vs. society theme (plus a lot of interesting education psychology references), etc.

I'm not even sure what you want to tell us with that (please refrain from elaborating this further in this thread, though), but this is the kind of post that easily offends some people, even though I am sure that was not the intention, and religion in general is a subject that quickly gets out of hand.

Surely, you are aware of the Terms of Service for this forum; especially item number 4.

Don't drag the discussion away from the Shadowrun context.

Bye
Thanee

Two mods jumped in already....

Just a reminder that the TOS number "4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any inappropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions." is there because of the work it creates for the mods when these subjects comes up.

None of those are even remotely about the themes cyberpunk deals with. I maintain it is hardly scifi, and much more noir, as in, social commentary about alienation through technology, as opposed to postulating technology to serve as a solution. And not just some SciFi has been rendered irrelevant; pretty much all SFWA writings up to the early 80s has, with it's focus on artificial intelligence and supercomputers. Not to mention Asimov and his naive laws of robotics. Ware is too Asimov for my taste, and Diamond Age is a novel written by people with a hard-on for Norquistianism (and appropriately ridiculous, not to say culturally specific). If you want a book that reflects on where Western society and technology is headed at the moment, read 1984 and think of the Xbox One, Google, Facebook, and the NSA.

Dune was a reflection on universal themes - individual vs. destiny is old, it's the story of mankind's oldest preserved stories, in fact. Star Trek, on the other hand, hasn't aged well; in fact, it never really got beyond being more than American block agitprop with some pseudoscience thrown in (and with a heavy dose of proto-neocon ideology, manifest destiny and sexism, too; kind of like Tom Clancy in space). TNG and DS9 were better, Voyager back to the same old, and please, let's not talk about Enterprise. No offense to you in case you're a fan, but those themes seem stale to me, just like the setting and the shows' persistent lack of self-examination about the imperialist core of the Federation of Planets.


Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep is about as cyberpunk as Asimov is. It has been adapted into a dystopian, dark and noir movie, but that adaption changed the story very fundamentally. For instance, except for hints you can't understand without having read the book, the whole affair of (synth)animal companions, which is a central theme in the book, has just been tossed. Blade Runner is about questions of self and alienation of self (to the very drastic point that you actually are not yourself, but a robot clone thing). The book is about humanity's responsibility for nature and robots after a devastatng war with aliens that killed 90% of Earth (which is why Blade Runner LA looks so un-LA, but the movie never bothers explaining this). Blade Runner and DADOES don't have much in common, at all. They're a case of a movie made based loosely on a book that goes off on a completely different tangent, much like Solaris is a romance movie (in space) while the novel it's based on is the author trying to set up a first contact scenario with the weirdest kind of intelligence physically possible. So no, DADOES is hardly relevant to Shadowrun or, for that matter, Cyberpunk.

Neuromancer is a heavily transhumanist and at the same time very punk book (though it's really better to consider the entire Sprawl trilogy one work, as they're very dependent on one another, by narrative and theme), and has great relevance, especially with all things Matrix. System Failure, in fact, mixes the finale of Neuromancer (Neuromancer and Wintermute merge for something lolwtf) with the finale of Mona Lisa Overdrive (the final singularity). The "new" AI and Paragons seem awfully similar to Count Zero's Loa. Shadowrun has a distinct lack of Turing cops - maybe you can flesh out GOD more into that direction? - what with it's newly rampant AI, and later books in 4th deviated from this line considerably, but yes, Neuromancer is quite relevant for Shadowrun.

A few other books are too. However, most "hard" Scifi rather is not. Why? Because Shadowrun's technology is five minutes in the future, like all Cyberpunk (or, to be precise, more like one point five minute by now). Also, shadowrun isn't all about the technology, which is what "hard" SciFi is all about, even less than conventional cyberpunk. Shadowrun is about a classic fantasy world merged with the world five (1.5) into the future, with some Cyberpunk classics from the 80s like the Splintered States of America.

What is quite relevant for Shadowrun is, for instance, a lot in Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan and Global Frequency - which emphathizes the oft-neglected Punk - and urban magic stuff like Harry Dresden.

"Hard" SciFi, not so much.

*Please* don't ask if it's ok to have sex with your ally spirit!

Hey, that's canon judging from some shadowtalk . .

Don't ask Dodger if AIs are kinky.

Legally, the question whether a bound ally spirit can consent to sex is doubtful. Much like with paedophilia, it seems an abuse of a power imbalance in a relationship. Just to try and put this into a legalistic perspective.

Of course, that is if you consider spirits persons before the law, at least to some degree (which, I think, the UCAS doesn't do). Otherwise? It's a really fancy sex toy.

I guess you can ask your ally spirit to voice its own mind without regard to external influences (including your bond/pact)?

Well, then it COULD be done I think

Back to topic.

True, but that was not the thesis to which I was responding. You said that a lot of sci-fi themes were no longer relevant. I offered counterexamples.


When I read it I got the feeling that it was addressing technologically and socially induced alienation and the human element in progress. I would have normally classified it as "pre-cyberpunk," but it fit the definition you cited, so I was going with that.

Again, I was not arguing that any of it is relevant to Shadowrun specifically, but rather that cyberpunk could not only address contemporary issues of their time, but are still relevant today.

Sure, some (usually more general) themes like alienation, technophobia/philia, or individual versus collective are pretty much timeless. Dune's general themes would work just as well set in a fantasy world populated by vikings, and do in ancient greek sagas. But you mentioned Gay Marriage, which is an issue of the day in one of ~210 countries of the world. That isn't exactly a timeless topic. You stated that "science fiction is an excellent place to bring the political, social, and economic issues of the day. Always has been." I just think that a legacy setting should stay the hell away from these, because they make the stories built around them age so damn fast. In general, SciFi can knock itself out on these topics.

To me the issue isn't one of what cyberpunk can or can't address, it's what we -- as a game -- should or shouldn't. Even ignoring how purely cyberpunk Shadowrun is (or isn't), the biggest difference to me is that we're not telling one story, as one writer. There isn't that cohesion of vision and direction that an Asimov or a Gibson had, even if we did have the talent and writing skill. Proselytizing by committee, through the medium of an RPG line instead of a novel, is an entirely different beast than a single writer doing so through the immersion and direction of something like a novel.

Authors taking a stance on real-world political subjects is tricky (and creatively dangerous) under ideal conditions; I'm firmly of the opinion that writing for an RPG is certainly less than ideal conditions, making the tightrope even narrower. Folks don't like getting blindsided by politics when all they wanna do is sling dice and tell cool stories with their buddies, so I'd just as soon we avoid it.

I did, but not in response to any claim that such a topic would be timeless. I was offering examples of how the topic could be fictionalized and used in Shadowrun.


I said that, too. But I said "science fiction," not "Shadowrun."

As to topical themes in legacy settings, it's worked fine for Star Trek. Heck, it's worked fine for Shadowrun, too, as the setting evolves over time in parallel with the Real World. A topical theme is addressed in a novel, or an adventure, or a splat book, and later on it's resolved and the universes continue weaving their intricate, interlaced plots.

Hear, hear.


No, it hasn't. Not at all.


The current team has tried so repeatedly, and the results were a disaster every time, from War's take on the Holocaust Zombie Massacre to retrieve the scalpel of jew slaying +2, to the Ares iGun malfunctions that endanger a corp because guns = so important, to the Fucking Mary-Sue Corps and it's exploits in EWA, 10 Mercs and stormfront. The New Matrix worked so well it's being retconned now, just as smatrphones are being downgraded massively for a return of the deck. And what Shadowrun novels have been released in the past 10 years? Where were topical themes as you say above successfully in Shadowrun?

I don't think that technological, socioeconomic and geopolitical trends are like hot button issues at all.

Not at all....

Then you're wrong. Very wrong.

We seem to be drifting from the topic of literature.

Most wholeheartedly agreed. In fact it rather turned me off to some of late 3rd edition under Fanpro that I stopped buying the books at the time (though I've since bought all of them for cheap later). Fictional politics like in Super Tuesday or Portfolio of a Dragon are great, real-world politics is not.

Quite so - if I want real politics in my games, I can and will put them in on my own.

I feel a bit stupid asking this, but I just don't see it in any of the previews (though I've been known to miss information that's right in front of my nose). Has it been revealed exactly what year fifth edition occurs in?

2075, to my knowledge.

Thank you very much.

2075, yes.

Yeah, but for the vast majority of them, it was his duty as King to marry them.
That was how they sealed a diplomatic treaty back then.
Agree to a treaty get a wife.

I do love how we have religious freedom in this country but have passed laws saying that marriage is between one man and one woman.
Which totally ignores that the Islam religion which has over a billion followers has historically recognized marriage with multiple wives (given that it is very rare today).
So if a Muslim with several wives comes to the US does only the first wife's marriage count?


Consenting adults people! Stay out of the business of consenting adults!

Posts blatantly violating the Terms of Service will result in warnings/account suspensions.

And the release date is up!!!

...well, the PDF at least. No concrete date yet for the print.

PDF will be released on July 11th, for the price of $20.

The print version will hit sometime in August.