Sweet! Our side has ranks?

Dibs on Supreme Immortal Prime Minister of Defense (and Offense)!

This is the price I pay for eschewing smilies.

They said as much.

"SR3 has been updated and rewritten for clarity, to provide cleaner, faster play" (SR3, 6).

"Even the new rules we added make the game more understandable and easier to play" (SR3, 322).

Streamling does not have to mean 'tear it down and build a new one'. But that is what they are doing.

I don't know the rules inside and out - in any game and I've been playing for over 25 years. And I still don't consider them overly complicated - complex? Yeah, but it's still a good system at that level of complexity.

That of course is not their intention, but admit it - going with a totally new system is a big gamble.

B'm not saying they are dumbing it down, but some of it kinda sounds that way - you're right - we just won't know till we get more materiel to look at. Their initial comment about streamlining to me meant that they were going to reorganize, make it easier to understand and kill off anything that may have been considered too complex, And to make the Decker an eassier character to run in a game session. Then they come out with the 'totally new system' Combine that with 'streamilin' and yeah, you have the potential for dumbing down.

? Totally new rules. A 5 year leap in the time line with what sounds like a gigantic leap in some tech - it's starting to sound like a new game.

If you are having a hard time finding all the additional core books now, in a year you will be in the same boat.

A noble goal - I hope it works out for them.

I've read very little - if any - actual bashing. I don't think anyone's really come out and said 'they''re idiots'. A lot of people have asked 'why should we trust them' - which is a legit question. I also think that most DS'rs will agree - we are not the game, there is a husge fanbase out there besides us. Hell there's a huge fanbase that probably doesn't even know about DS . None of us belive fanpro is out to ruin the game - it is what we are afraid of. And all of us will agree - this is a money thing. Anyone that can ot see that is a dolt. It's always about money. They want more fans, to buy their product, so they can afford to make more product to seel to their fans. What, Does anyone believe they are just out to break even?

You are reading too much into our posts, and trying to put words in our mouths.

I totally agree with that - that is their goal - I just don't agree with their strategy.

I know what you mean. There are a few conversations I've been in here that have been rendered incomprehensible to anyone who didn't actually observe the frantic reply-edit-reply-edit-reply cycle.

~J

Actually the above sentence isn't there to spike up anger. In any change, there are things you will dislike, but also things that are good.

My point being, accept the change. It is inevitable. Find the good things in the new situation and adapt to the rest.

As noone is forcing SR4 down anyones throat, adapting could include staying with SR3 and accepting that there will be no further development for that system.

Ok?

Second, I'm not a troll or trolling. And I have made a point out of not singling out persons for flaming, but try to stay focused on the content of the discussion. Even if this thread have taken a roundabout here and there.

Gambitt understood exactly what I was trying to say. Simplifying without losing the challenge of the game. Not simply "dumbing down".

I've read all the available SR4 material, the FAQs etc., and I have not seen anything that forebodes a bad game. A different game, yes, but bad is not something I can conclude at this point.

I'm not here to spew feel-good mainstream propaganda. I really believe that nothing should be taken at face value. However, there is a sharp difference between pointed questions (which we can't really ask FANPRO at this point), and thrashing of a game not yet released. - I know you have stuff in SR3 that you, and probably me too, will miss and need time to adjust to not being there or being changed. But to me, its not enough to actually propagandize vs. SR4.

That is what looks like plain stubbornness to change.

Anyhow, I don't have anything else to say to this topic. And I apologize if I have personally insulted anyone. That was not the intent.

That's your opinion. And you're welome to it. Some have a similar opinion, others a different opinion. And most none at this point.

My opinion on the subject itself has remained unchanged since the announcement. admittedly, the reasons have changed. My initial reasons were financial - I just can't afford to upgrade. Then it went to a moral-type reason - Why has the industry adopted this 'new edition every so-many years' as a standard? Money grab. Thats why the comic industry releases comics with multiple covers, the DVD industry rereleases things like X-men 1.5, and why the gaming industry re-editions their games ever so often.

Now the reasoning for my dislike of the change comes from what we have been told; complete rules re-write, setting changes, character changes. They are getting rid of and/or changing a lot of the things that have been a staple of the SR game since day 1.

I'm not against change. I'm against change for the sake of change. All change is not good.

Nonsense, this is an internet message board. The only thing wrong with your post was that you at no point bashed the United States, Microsoft, the EU, or Linux.

Or denounce someone as being worthless due to their spelling and typographical errors!

I was pretty heavily involved as a playtester for SR3, and don't recall "less bloated" or "more consise" ever being mentioned as major SR3 design goals, and they certainly were not IMPLIMENTED as such.
SR3 is more logical and consistant than SR2 (with its various suplements), but this wasn't in the name of simplicty; it was done to allow more and more complex game concepts to be integrated without logical clashes or absurd mechanical variances.
In fact, the SR3 book is longer (page and text count) than any other basic gamebook on the market that I know of, and has several large expansions that are really just semi-optional rules texts. Does that sound like a book designed with brevity in mind?

SR3--336 pages
Ars Magica, 3rd ed.--392 pages
Earthdawn--336 pages
D&D Player's Handbook--320 pages
D&D Dungeon Master's Guide--320 pages more (640 total)

Now maybe you know more.

~J

Yeah, right.

I'm going to take the word of the line developer with regards to the intent behind SR3. Those quotes didn't come out of thin air. They're part of two large chunks of text I retyped (effing paper books...) on another thread. But for completeness' sake, enjoy:

Hmm... What do I see here? "Cleaner", "faster", "consistent" (hahahaha), "clarify".

"Understandable", "eaiser to play".

Nope, nothing concise in the book that is, "the complete reference collection of basic rules used to play Shadowrun."

Remember, this is the same book that said, "Years ago, people might not have objected to buying multiple rulebooks to get the complete game, but if you tell today's roleplayer that he needs to buy four or five books just to get the core rules of your game, you might as well fold up your tend and go home."

So, no, I don't suppose bloat was an intention of the design process.

This sums up my whole outlook and oppinion on SR4.

I was excited about the new edition until I saw what was being changed.
I do consider myself "anti-these-changes-we've-heard-about-so-far."

HERO System 5th Edition, 376 pages (and the recent revision added somethng like 60 more, IIRC)

"Soup Coolers." I must remember that one....

You're right. You're absolutely right.

To respond to some of your points:

My style of play tends to be fairly plot-driven, but I do play it more as an action movie than grim, ugly cyberpunk. I don't much like cyberpunk (which is probably one of the worst-kept secrets in the gaming world).

The vast bulk of my freelancing and playtesting has been in Shadowrun; that's the game that I love and keep coming back to, all my other experiments over the last almost 30 years aside. I have been involved in the playtest, and in some cases re-writing, of everything FASA put out from Man & Machine onward, and a significant portion of FanPro's output.

I've got a few thousand words of my stuff in Target Matrix, a tiny chunk in Year of the Comet, and a significant chunk in the oft-delayed Running Wild, which has been moved on the schedule until sometime after the SR4 release. I helped rewrite the gun construction rules in Cannon Companion, because the original rules presented to us were even clunkier. (Many of my suggestions didn't make it in, either.) One of the guys in my group managed to get one of the martial arts styles changed slightly (he got them to exchange one maneuver for Focus Will in Carromeleg).

This isn't me bragging, it's me stating some of my bona fides so you can judge for yourself how things I've worked on have come out.

I'll respond some more to this later if you'd like. I think there are still things unanswered.

AHA! - So, where is my bullpup configured twin-clip, 50 shot each, 10S Shotgun?

(With optional underbarrelmounting for flamer or grenadethrower, top mounted superscope and internal smartlink 2, naturally with shockpads and improved gasvent IV, for easy BF utility. Conniseurs customize the grip for extra comfort)

It only weighs 7 kilos and cost 12k before SI. How could you Not pre-build this baby as a weapon to be added in CC?

My GM keeps getting this weird look in his eyes when I show him the designspecs.

Funny, you don't look like spud.

And for good reason.

That's the reason I have a credit that says "Additional Information" instead of a simple playtester credit in CC was because of the considerable bleeding I did on the original gun creation rules presented during initial drafts.

I think spud's system was an after-market modification.

Let me help out by correcting that spelling mistake.

Nope. His came out months before CC did.

I know this because I remember the discussion we had on SL (back when he was on SL) when CC was released about how it looked like they cut & pasted his rules into the book (and in many cases with the same FCU values).

He released a second edition of the rules shortly thereafter which had been under construction when CC was released. However, we were specifically waiting for CC to be released because, you know, it's generally best to follow canon and it had already been announced that CC would have a FCG.

[This is an administrative post.]

Please do not make "I corrected your spelling" and other such joke posts where you change someone's quoted text. It's rude and potentially leads to confusion.

Thanks.

Must... Resist... The urge...

ROFL! Oh, you got me there.

Time for morning coffee.

Ok... It's "shock whip", but you wrote "schock", which apparently reminded him of "schlock" - meaning something cheap and shabby (most often used to describe art or film). It could be viewed as saying that "shock whip" is a "schlocky" idea, I guess.

Just to drive a nail in that coffin...


Talislanta 4th edition: 504 pages (!!!)
Stargate: 488 pages