We've been told, outright, that when you do something you roll attribute + skill + situational modifiers (like smartlinks, range, visibility mods, etc). Part of the reason for this is (similar to CP) was to streamline gameplay by making it very very very very easy for people to figure out what to roll. Fixed TN = Less Math. Simple Pool = Basic Addition (instead of division, rounding, etc). Simple. "Streamlined." Your zany "stat + edge/ 3" or whatever it was could be found in the dictionary under "polar fucking opposite" of what SR4's stated purpose is -- simplicity to the point of dumbing down probably has nothing at all to do with division.

We've been told, outright, that Edge works like Karma Pool. Karma Pool is only rarely used for auto successes. It is just as rarely used to lower TNs (similar, in theory, to what would be called auto successes under the current system, and related to lowering thresholds in SR4, that being the case). It is almost always used to reroll dice. It is not an attribute that is used to determine other attributes. It is not an attribute that is often -- if ever, I can't think of a single time -- rolled or otherwise taken into consideration for anything.

Continuing (replying for Eldritch, in a fashion), we've been told, outright, that Combat Pool's been removed because it slowed things down, made the poor gamers think too much, and complicated gameplay too much -- so why replace it with the exact same problems? Weird formula (too tough for what they assume to be the average gamer), etc, etc, are not what they're going for, by all accounts.

Trying to defend an idea by saying "it's not any more complicated than what we have now" just means your idea is at least half again too complicated. SR players aren't, apparently, smart enough to get to keep something as dangerous and complex as Combat Pool. What makes you think they're going to trust is with anything similar to it in complication?

SR4 = "streamlined." One could very probably even say "dumbed down." None of your ideas are very streamed, nor lined. They are, from all that we've been told, far too complicated for your average poor, stupid, attention-span lacking gamer to comprehend, much less implement in any sort of entertaining fashion. Adding arcane formula (like "number plus number divided by three, write down") would only add to the several hour process of character creation (several hours, according to some people around here), and the frustration of poor Timmy trying to get into gaming.

There. Constructive, specific, "criticism" -- though I'm not really criticising your idea, just pointing out it (as mentioned) flies wildly in the face of what we know they have in mind for SR4. I've been trying to keep my posts short, lately, so that I don't drown people in bitterness and sarcasm. If you prefer a blow-by-blow like this, though, I'll oblige whenever I have the time.

It's not "my idea" that streamlining means removing math. It's the idea of the people streamlining Shadowrun. I can tell from your confusion over my post that sarcasm is not only wasted on you, but potentially conversation ending. Instead of being sarcastic as a means of half-heartedly poking fun at the "simplistic" game we're all being handed on a silver platter, I will, instead, try to state a series of simple, raw, facts, to explain things to you more simply. I will streamline my post.

Fact: They want to get as many people playing Shadowrun as possible. This should surprise no one. It's their job.

Fact: Apparently, right now, an awful lot of people don't play Shadowrun because it's too hard, too complicated, has too much math. I don't make up these facts, nor do I agree with them, but this is what people say is the problem. These are, apparently, common and long-standing complaints. Working up Combat Pool takes a long time. Allocating Combat Pool takes a long time. Figuring out a target number takes a long time. That's what people say.

Fact: To fix that, and draw in all those not-playing people, they're making it simpler.

Fact: A part of making it simpler is getting rid of the things people don't like: it being hard, complicated, and containing much math beyond basic addition.

Fact: Your concepts are the opposite of that. They want it simple, and have told us how they're doing so -- attribute + skill + modifiers (for lighting, wounds, etc). Period. That's it. That's the core mechanic, right there. That's all. No "pools" all up and divided. No variable TN. No complication.

Fact: You defend some of your concepts by saying they are "no more complicated than what we have now." This is an absurd defense because, according to the people (re)making the game, what we have now is too complicated.

And we can use D20's, but only one of them. JK

On the contrary, this is exactly what I consider dumbing it down. Moreover, it's one thing to say "while keeping all the options intact", another completely to actually keep them intact.

~J

You ever notice that the people that go around calling others 'Elitist' generally come off as elitist themselves?


Nerbie, you've spent a lot of posting time the last few days coming off as just downright insulting to those of us that criticize SR4. We are entitled to our opinion. Opinions based on the facts of the faq, the 'poorly translated' German news letter, the tid bits dropped by the play testers/devs, and yes, opinions based on speculation.


You need to step back, take a chill and relax. It's fine to argue, debate, and even toss out your own wild ass speculations - but becoming insulting is asinine.

You tossed out an idea. Several people agreed that it was at least as complicated as what we have now, and I still maintain that it is more complicated - you'd have a die pool for each attribute. Would you also have magic, control, and decking pools? Each attribute - does that include reaction? Essence? Heh, and even edge? A pool for the pool! COOL!

Then you got pissed of that your idea was criticized. Well if you can't take it, don't put it out there.

You really don't seem to understand the problem.

See, the reason why players are maxing out intelligence and quickness right now is because they factor into 2 important sub-stats: Reaction and Combat Pool. You're suggesting that Edge should factor into 9 sub-pools! And don't get me started on the problem of automatic successes; if you've had any experience with other systems, like SR1, you'd know how broken that is. Hopefully the devs will have learned from the mistake of past systems-- but with what we're seeing, it's hard to credit them with even that.

It's pretty clear to us all that you've got very little experience with gaming mechanics in general, and Shadowrun in particular. Which is fine, we all had to start somewhere. You seem to have only the vaugest concept of what constitutes simple and balanced mechanics.

I'm going to quote one of my favorite authors, now, as an analogy to Nerbie.

It would seriously enhance your standing with devs and make it more propable your complaints aren't written off as someone bitching for the sake of bitching, that's all I'm saying.

As opposed to it (accurately) being more streamlined and easier to learn and use, which is what you see people bitching about here.

Crap. I'm slipping.

This is presented as mere opinion and my belief that Critias is stating this as Fact is my own personal delusion.

Suuure.

Edge is a attibute. Edge is Luck. Those seem to be facts so far.

How to work - and be simple (But not neccessarily better)?

1)It gives you extra dice - whenever you need them, for any task. That is probably the easiest way to use it. No refreshing, no keeping track of it. Use it as you please. Your edge is 3, you have 3 extra dice to use on all skill rolls. And that is where the unenhanced/mundane would get a leg up to be on the same field as the Sammie/mage. Smartgun Link gives you 2 extra dice, so does edge. I really don't care for this option, but it is by far the simplist to use - though I haven't thought out all that could go wrong with it.

2)It acts like the pools do now, and refreshes every round/turn/scene/adventure/day

3)Reroll a roll, once per point - and it refreshes every so often (See above)

Optional: Permenatnly burn a point off for a success. Which on a basic level equates to sepnding karma for successes - becuase I assume that you can increase your edge attribute like any other, by spedining karma.


Three other simple ways - off the top of my head - go ahead and tear them up

Actually, that doesn't describe SR3 at all. Under the current rules, you can only burn for an automatic success if you roll one naturally. Even under a new mechanic, autosuccesses pose a huge problem: if you've been modified down to 1 or less dice, you simply autosuccess yourself past the threshold you need.

That creates an uberstat. Why bother raising any other skill or attribute, when you can just raise your edge, and get a benefit everywhere?

Both these work decently well, except for the fact that it doesn't work like any other attribute anymore. Since everything is supposedly skill + attribute, no exceptions, this means they're not really simplifying the system any; there's one rule for Edge, another for reaction/initiative, a third for Magic, and so on. Every benefit of the new mechanic goes right out the window.

So, because I failed to mention that you require one success in order to purchase further successes, my comment was in no way indicative of how degree of success and the concept of automatic successes works, in SR3?

If you manage to improbably succeed against a TN# of 35, it's astronomically unlikely that you'd score more than one success. However, you are still able to buy successes, each of which would ordinarily be the result of a 1-in-23,000 roll. A success in SR4, regardless of how difficult the task, is always the result of a 1-in-3 roll.

I also don't view the idea of being able to purchase enough successes to exceed an otherwise impossible threshold as a problem. If that is a problem, then the existing rule of six is a huge problem, as a character can, with luck alone, potentially obtain a success against an impossibly high target number on a single die (a situation that would be analogous to having little or no dice or a greatly increased threshold, in SR4).

I've always viewed this mechanic, wherein the potential for success, no matter how close to zero it approaches, never quite reaches zero, as one of the greater triumphs of the Shadowrun system. Compare it to d20's attempt, the natural 20. Your chances of failure will either never drop below 5% (if a natural 20 is a success) or will smoothly and surely go from 5% to absolute zero.

Careful there. 1-(2/3)^3~=70%. That's not what I'd call a "virtual guarantee". Your original point is still valid, but the supporting evidence was rather overstated.

Autosuccesses are still an issue, especially when you consider threshold successes. If a task requires 3 successes, and you only have 1 die, 2 autosuccesses changes it from impossible to easy. Worse, what happens if the threshold is less than your autosuccesses? If you need 5 successes, and have 6 guaranteed, you don't even need to roll.

Actually, I was responding to your argument that autosuccesses under SR3 "obliterates probability". Because one natural success is required, the SR3 system is more of an extra push. For example, if someone needed 2 successes vs TN 35, burning that karma point would, at worst, halve your odds.

I agree. Which is why I'm concerned that said mechanic will be removed in SR4. According to the new info, the rule of 6 only applies when Edge is brought into play. That means, unless you're using Edge, if you need more successes than you have dice, you simply fail.