Right off the bat, below is not a question of whether tactical pools were better than what they are apparently being 'replaced' by. It is a critical look into what we know, in order to make sense of these changes. Please help by picking it apart, etc. Alot of you know the rules of SR3 better than I do. That said...

Does the FAQ section on the edge attribute signify the potential for an element of strategy to be maintained in SR4?

It says that it will be extra useful for non-cybered mundanes. That's a clue.

We know that character creation will be point-based, that skills+attribute vs. TN5 is the core mechanic, and that there are more attributes and skills than before. Only one of those attributes is a true wild-card (edge). There are no attribute-derived tactical pools.

So, cyber Samurai-style characters will be spending their build points primarily on gear and the rest directly on the attributes/skills they need for combat. Awakened characters will spend theirs on the magic attribute, the appropriate mental attributes, and the necessary magical skills (of which there are more). Non-cybered mundanes therefore presumably have 'leftovers' to spend on edge, after they take the skills and attributes they want.

Fairly obvious.

But...this doesn't mean that sammies and mages/adepts won't have access to similar "pools" of extra dice.

Take, for example, the adept's Combat Sense power. It adds dice to the combat pool under SR3. What is to say that the new Combat Sense won't still add the ability to use X number of extra dice during combat tests?

What is to say that the VCR doesn't add extra dice to a "hacker's" reaction+driving skill rolls in the same manner as it applied them to the control pool under SR3?

In other words, they might have simply done away with the abstraction of the tactical pools by applying the same concept directly to the skill+attribute roll. In which case, they wouldn't have done away with the strategic flexibility of the tactical pools at all. Right?

That all depends on how it actually works.

However, if Edge is the attempt to recreate Combat Pool, I am very much opposed to "weighting" it for mundane use. As this is a classless game, for the most part, no one "class" should be more "tactical" in combat then any other "class".

If the various pools are replaced by other mechanics (streamlining???), then that's different.

We are utterly unformed as to the application of Edge, except that it performs similary to Karma Pool according to one of the FAQs

I don't usually like to do this, but I think I was unclear (I'm at work), so I will clarify.

Edge has been said to replace the karma pool. As in, it is a wild-card that can be used to aid any roll.

Since they are saying that edge will be extra important for non-cybered mundanes, that seems to imply that cyber-freaks and awakened characters WILL have their own sorts of tactical dice.

As in, bonuses from cyberware, powers, spells, etc., which mundanes won't have access to, which is why edge is important for them. Same as before, except mundanes are now actually competetive.

The "mechanic" that replaces tactical pools is just that those extra dice (from whatever source) apply directly to the attribute+skill equation. In other words, attribute+skill+bonus dice vs. TN5. That is streamlined, yet it does not do away with the tactical flexibility offered by the tactical pools of SR3.

Edge being more usful to mundanes could mean that a characters max edge is equal to something like

9 - subjects essense - subjects magic attribute.

Or something like that so a none cybered mundane can gain more points in edge and so have more chance to use it in different situations.

of course it clearly could not mean that too.

How does it imply that at all? Non-cybered mundanes obviously get the benefits of neither magic nor cyber/bioware, leaving Edge to be extra important as their "balancing factor". No need for bonus dice from anywhere.

~J

Kagatenshi,

To answer your question, the benefits of cyber/bio must be along the same lines as the benefits of edge, if they are to balance.

If the TN is fixed, what else will they do besides add dice?

that's what the playtesters i've talked to have said--edge is random, whereas cyber/bio/magic are more dependable.

If they're added directly, there's no tactics involved. It's like Enhanced Articulation—it adds one die to everything physical, but there's no decision-making past whether or not to get the 'ware. The dice are always added. If you perform one physical action in a combat turn you get the one bonus die for that action, whereas if you perform twenty somehow you get the bonus die for all twenty. You also can't, for instance, hold that die back to dodge with.

~J

Which translates directly to "yet another bonus you don't have to think about to use right." Yippee.

Karma pool is limited and refreshes slowly. Edge will be even more limited than karma pool, and if edge was a pool that refreshed every combat turn, they'd have just said as much. Thus, edge will also refresh slowly. There is some strategy in using a small, slowly refreshing set of dice, but not that much.

But that is not how things like the VCR work. Or Combat Sense. They added control pool and combat pool dice, respectively, which is why I mentioned them.

I do see what you mean, though. And at this point, the question comes down to 'what will they change it to: more like enhanced articulation, or more like what Geko hopes they'll change it to (ie: the bonuses only refresh every turn).' Which is impossible to answer.

Thank you for clarifying.

eh. strategy with a small, slow-refreshing dice pool is largely limited to "am i going to die/are we going to lose if i don't use it now?"

i don't see how a pool that refreshes every round could be comparable in function to karma pool; therefore, i'm pretty sure that Edge won't refresh every round.

We don't have enough data to even speculate reasonably at this point.

yes, we do. we have the FAQs, and we have several freelancer comments that indicate how Edge works.

Whats the refresh rate?
What does it apply to stats, rerolls, etc.?
Can it be rolled in lieu of lower stat or does it supplement rolls with additional dice?
I may have missed the answers to the specific application of the Edge stat, but all I see is speculation without supporting evidence at this time.

if we were speculating on those questions, that would be a reasonable objection to raise. we're not.

You're welcome.

Replacing a riggers control pool with a flat addition to the dice pool would not maintain strategic flexibility, rather it would maintain the power of the pools while not requiring any strategic control on when the pool should be used.

I can’t see the makers doing away with pools as they where in SR3, using the name pools for something else and recreating round buy round refreshing tactical dice sets that may be used to aid tests of a given type. It would confuse people to no purpose, I can’t say it isn’t what they are doing but I very much doubt it.

The only weighting edge will likely have for a mundane is that it is purchased from the same pool of points that a magical uses to purchase magic attribute spells and powers. The mundane character will be able to choose wether to use the saving on additional equipment, skills or attributes, including edge. At the same time a magical character can buy high edge but will have les points to spend on other things. At least I hope that is how it works, how often it will refresh and exactly what you can do with it remains to be seen.

Edward

are the beefs tender there?

ROTFLMAO

I like it how it's always been. It means more to be n hundred karma than if it is treated like an Attribute with a cap inferred from the FAQs.

There's a split with karma pool, too. If you've got experience but not luck, the karma pool will get burned off.

~J

I don't remember the FAQ specifically stating that you won't be able to do that in SR4 ...

Well, see here's the thing. You're suggest that they might have a mechanic where you can burn an Attribute. Does that not sound in any way retarded to you?

Given the rest of the FAQ, I'm sure some dev out there is thinking, "Nope."

Bullshit. They brought this upon themselves when they made the genius decision to replace KP with an Attribute. Unless Attributes work differently now, and I can burn my Reaction, Strength, or Charisma skills as well by making a rules exception to the game they are complicating the game for the dullards out there they hope to attract. I'm sure Edge already has its own set of rules that are neat and short as compared to the KP rules, but if you're going to make a decision like turning it into an Attribute, you're going to have to consider the consequences for making such a decision. If you can burn any Attribute, including Edge, then that would be fine. It doesn't entirely make sense from the rules perspective, but you can wing some smartass RP excuse for blowing a point of Strength to buy a success, but in turn destroying muscle and permanently weakening oneself, and necessitating a karma repurchase of their old Attribute.

But with Edge an Attribute, one should be able to expect that it is treated like every other attribute with the exception of how its dice are allocated. But the idea of burning an Attribute to purchase successes is ludicrous. Moreover, what happens when you need to burn 6 or more Edge dice? Last time I checked, you can't even have a 0 in any Attribute, but you can have 0 KP. Oh, let's make up more rules and more exceptions. You can't burn Edge if you only have 1. You can only burn (n-1) Edge. Add it all up, and the KP rules start to look like pure genius compared to muddled crap coming from a game that was supposed to be "streamlined" and easier to play.

I'm just curious, anyway, at what was so fucked up about KP that they had to eliminate it and replace it with an Attribute. Or do they just hope and see no PC making it past the 100 karma point? 200 karma? 300? What, are they putting caps on how far a character can advance karmically now?

The main thing about KP was that it quickly got very big. Of course you could have changed that with a scaling correction, but you know...

Some of us don't see that as a bad thing.

Just to point out something: the rules for attributes are hardly consistent even now. Magic and Reaction are both labelled 'attributes,' but both follow rules that are rather different from those used for the other 'attributes.' Is it ludicrous that you risk losing a point from your Magic attribute simply by using a stimpatch or recieving medical care, but that no other attributes have analogous risks? Is is ludicrous that you cannot increase your Reaction in the same manner as other attributes? I would say no to both of those.

If they do allow for the burning of Edge in the same way as KP, you cannot assume that all attributes in SR4 will follow identical rules, nor is it an inherently bad if they dont. Perhaps it would be better if deviant attributes had a different name, perhaps not - I havent seen the final product, and dont know which would be more confusing.

It seems to me that the designation as an attribute might simply be to allow variable values of the Karma Pool analogue to be purchased at chargen, and to make increasing it optional. That doesnt strike me as a terrible decision. Again, I dont know the specifics, but I think its a bit early to decry it as a horrid change.

It would be ludicrous if we were going to hold SR3 as an example of getting rid of rule exceptions.

~J

I dunno, but when the KP got past 10, the characters really started to be too Super for a decent game. It WAS in need of fixing. However, I don't see how Edge will really adress that issue.

In your games, maybe. But don't say it like it's a universal truth.

And, no, Jason to both your questions.

Eh, my signature/long-running character, who is an ongoing test in the ability of Shadowrun rules to scale nearly infinitely, has a karma pool of over 190. He's still been forced to deplete it to zero on several occasions in fairly recent history, and he's had to burn quite a few points besides. Remember that it costs 10 karma pool to reroll your failures four times. Or reroll 4 dice of an open test. If you're rolling a lot of dice (with high karma pool, you will likely be doing so) and looking for equally high numbers of successes versus a high target number, karma pool burns up pretty quick.

I think that one particular lifesaving roll demanded no less than ten rerolls, or the temporary expenditure of 55 karma pool.

that was a fun game.

Goddamned plants.

My longtime character was up to 10 recently, and she was really getting too many rerolls for the KP to be a ressource you need to sue carefully (rerolls galore, and usually, you don't need 10 rerolls to succeed in my game group).

The point is not that you cannot present the chars with enemies that can't match them, even with more than 100 KP. the thing is that this game, in relation to how average NPCs are made out to be in the books, turns to DragonballZ.

what I'll sorely miss will be the "oh, is this important enough to reroll?" feeling I had with KP, if Edge is handled like an attribute. If it is handled like Karma Pool in being burn and refreshing, I'll only miss the permanently burning of KP for auto successes.

only reason i can see for removing the karma pool was how it was calculated. for every ten points of karma i get one extra pool dice? ok, so far so well. but then what happens when i use said karma to increase something, is it used up or is it still there? and if used up, do my pool then allso go down?

or was it that every 10th point of karma goes directly to the pool and stays there so when i get 10 karma i actualy get 9 karma and 1 extra karma pool dice?

and what if i get more then 10 karma? should i look at the total karma and then move 1 karma over to the pool pr 10 karma given?

sure its logical but it kinda reminds me of the logic found is a specific guide to the galaxy...

still, the removal of the general pools will be missed. but i can kinda allso see why they where removed. was there not allways a ongoing debate about the posibility of using them outside of combat?

and of one can do so, at what rate do they refresh?

and if they refresh like they do in combat allso outside combat then i could take a skill of 1 in all skills and just apply my combat pool to them

Every tenth point of karma you earned went directly to karma pool. So you actually earned 9 karma and 1 karma pool. If you got a 13 karma reward, you would have gotten 12 karma and 1 pool.

Edit, our group has houseruled it to where every ten karma, you get a karma pool die automatically, without having to sacrifice the tenth point. ...and we still never have any karma pool.

I always used it in that for every 10th reputation point (equal to karma gained), you gain a KP point. So you get 12 karma, 12 rep and 1.2 KP.

Okay, I am beginning to see why they revised it.

But making it an attribute? Eh ... I just don't like that ...,.