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Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Angelone)
Before my mage bought it dead.gif, a few nights ago, I'd reload about 25% of the time. Now I'm a Street Sam/backup decker and I need to reload a few times a fight, but I end up just switching guns.

If you're really cool, you *discard* empty guns, tossing them over your shoulders as you draw your next one. Of course, it helps then if your arsenal is made entirely of Sandler TMPs.
Mortax
QUOTE (Crimson Jack)
QUOTE (Mortax @ May 28 2005, 10:33 PM)
Most char I play don't use guns. 
I always go for stealth, and most of the time can get the job done without much fighting.

"I sneak up to him and socialize it out." wink.gif

Except less with the socialize and more with the manabolt.
Or something along those lines.
Clout, stunbolt, ram the roof over their head, whatever works. smile.gif

Or the vampire mage swings the Dikote katana......

And the firearms adept never needed to reload. Extended clip, rolling 12+ dice to shoot, one shot one kill most of the time.
Crimson Jack
Heh, I misunderstood your method. biggrin.gif
Edward
I have mentioned it before in this and other threads, now I will pose it as a question.

What are your NPCs taking cover behind.

Edward
Ol' Scratch
To use the two examples you listed (corporate hallways and parking garages): Inside adjacent rooms in the hallway, or behind pillars or parked vehicles.
noname_hero
As a GM I tend to give my players enough modifiers to make hits more difficult if the situation warrants it, but they're smart, understand this, and tend to avoid such situations. Not every shot hits, not every hit is deadly, but the average number of rounds per neutralized enemy is not that high either (well, not counting occasional suppressive fire).

And the players value their characters' lives, and they realize that being badly outnumbered is a *bad* thing, so they tend to withdraw rather than go ahead and hope to win against probability. They KNOW that while an average runner is better than an average guard, average runner can't take on several guards at once and hope to win, not with a probability they'd be willing to accept. If firing the few shots they can fire before too many bullets get fired in their direction isn't likely to be enough they *don't* spray'n'pray. And if they do make a mistake a walk into a situation where running away isn't an option and too much lead is flying towards them, well, they'll run out of luck before they run out of bullets anyway...

So even with modifiers they do not reload that often, but I'd say that's because of their tactics, not because of the SR system being too easy on them.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Edward)
I have mentioned it before in this and other threads, now I will pose it as a question.

What are your NPCs taking cover behind.

Edward

Parking garage Pillars, Cars, Corners of Hallways, Doorways, Security Desks, Power Poles, Planters, Trolls, Hostages, and/or damn near every other thing they can find. Cover can be found damn near everywhere be it soft cover or hard cover.
mfb
*grumble grumble no differentiation between cover and concealment grumble*
BitBasher
QUOTE (mfb)
*grumble grumble no differentiation between cover and concealment grumble*

Actually, in my games I do have a difference. I treat concealment as soft cover which means you can shoot through it instead of around it at half the penalty, but the target gets the barrier rating of the concealment (if applicable, say not a shrub) taken off the power of the weapon.

So, if someone flips a barrier rating three table over at McHughs™ and uses it for 4 points of cover the assailant can opt to shoot through the table where he thinks the target is for only +2 to the tn but 3 power comes off the shot if it lands sucessfully.

This applies for targets hiding behind wallboard corners etc. See the last season of 24 as an illustration of why not to hide behind a plasterboard decorative column.
mfb
yeah, i've come up with similar rules. i'm just grumbling that they're not the default rules.
Ol' Scratch
Eh? They are the default rules. You can either choose to shoot around cover to try and hit your target, or you can try and shoot through their cover to take them out. If you know right where they are (through a successful Perception test or simply being able to see them if the GM is lazy) you don't suffer any modifiers on the shot at all.

Thus if you can spot the guy's head on the other side of a tipped-over table, you just need make a Perception Test with a +2 "object partially hidden" and lighting condition modifier. If you make it, bam, you just gotta shoot through the Rating 3 barrier as per the standard rules for doing so with no cover or blindfire penalty.

Or am I missing something about what you guys are saying?
mfb
eh. according to "the RAW" as the crazy d20 kids say, you take a +8 blindfire penalty on any attempt to fire through a barrier. you can stretch that and say that the blindfire penalty is reduced to normal cover modifiers if the target is partially-visible, but you're not allowed to just ignore it unless the barrier is transparent.
Krazy
I guess I just do things diffrent, I personaly find it easier to pop-up shoot and drop (and I was under the impression that those constituted a simple and a free action repectivly is SR) and unless the PC is commiting several rounds I don't give very good odds for blind fire hits (actual hit, no skill bonus on 1D6 result 1). what you can't see you can't hit, unless your commiting a round for every place the target could be (suppressive fire). and unless I'm being shot at (in RL aplied paintball experiance) it's better to keep your head up and in the fight as opposed to hiding and getting rushed, or missing the guy with the Spike poping up to get rid of your cover. sure people duck back, that's what combat pool dodging is.

also I don't see caling the shot to be an advantage, it soaks up an action, (and having actually shot stuff I can't figure out how you can hit anything without aiming, but that's just me) and if the avaialbe target is less than head sized the TN goes up acordingly.
does anyone else do WAG preseption tests secretly?
Wounded Ronin
You know what I wish sometimes? That Shadowrun would penalize you for silhouetting yourself. It would be better to use the side of cover rather than the top of cover with such a rule. And it would be mildly more realistic.
Krazy
and I wish that all GM's became super human and able to accuratly assign TN's based on all of the possible variables. but we live in the real world, the dice are digital, and will never translate well to our analog world
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Krazy)
and I wish that all GM's became super human and able to accuratly assign TN's based on all of the possible variables. but we live in the real world, the dice are digital, and will never translate well to our analog world

Actually, that's why I think that a GM assistance computer program would be a great idea. You could enter all the encounters and the stats of the bad guys into the system ahead of time, enter all the maps, and the computer would apply all the possible situational modifiers ahead of time, while letting the dice fall as they may.

Like, the rules are so complex, so why leave it to a person to remember? I think that applying everything is really the job for a computer program.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Krazy @ May 31 2005, 04:58 PM)
and I wish that all GM's became super human and able to accuratly assign TN's based on all of the possible variables. but we live in the real world, the dice are digital, and will never translate well to our analog world

Actually, that's why I think that a GM assistance computer program would be a great idea. You could enter all the encounters and the stats of the bad guys into the system ahead of time, enter all the maps, and the computer would apply all the possible situational modifiers ahead of time, while letting the dice fall as they may.

Like, the rules are so complex, so why leave it to a person to remember? I think that applying everything is really the job for a computer program.

At that point, SR-MMORPG it.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Krazy)
I guess I just do things diffrent, I personaly find it easier to pop-up shoot and drop (and I was under the impression that those constituted a simple and a free action repectivly is SR)

Right, but in SR combat this would make the NPC's just hold an action to wait for you to pop up then shoot you in the head automatically before you got your action to shoot.

QUOTE
also I don't see caling the shot to be an advantage, it soaks up an action, (and having actually shot stuff  I can't figure out how you can hit anything without aiming, but that's just me) and if the avaialbe target is less than head sized the TN goes up acordingly. does anyone else do WAG preseption tests secretly?
ALL shots in SR are assumed to be aimed, that's one reason the rate of fire is so low. There's no actual rules for emptying a semi-auto gun in the general direction of something without aiming.
Krazy
I just make crap up all the time for things like that. suppressive fire max rounds equal to quickness. it makes a little sense, one meter spread, and dodge modifires based on munber of rounds fired and range (+1 per round -1 per m range) but that only happeens rarely, most of my players seem content with the current rules.
wargear
One word: Revolver.

Sometimes it's just nice to go with a classic firearm, and that means reloading.

Often.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (noname_hero)
And the players value their characters' lives, and they realize that being badly outnumbered is a *bad* thing, so they tend to withdraw rather than go ahead and hope to win against probability. They KNOW that while an average runner is better than an average guard, average runner can't take on several guards at once and hope to win, not with a probability they'd be willing to accept.

shrug, even being badly outnumbered isn't bad if you have the correct group to deal with it and the environment isn't TOO unfriendly. Obviously, if you're in a kill zone, run like hell, but...

All of our groups members have some kind of increased initiative setup, so unless we're suprised we usually go first. Usually, it goes: Badass samurai elf draws dikoted katana, and averts eyes, takes cover if possible. Combat Mage #1 drops force 6 deadly stunball on enemy group, dropping anyone with willpower less than 4 instantly (taking no drain), and averts eyes, takes cover if possible. If stunball is tactically inadvisable (it won't take out most of the enemies), Combat Mage #1 casts a force 7 physical barrier, taking minimal or no stun. Summoner Mage #1 orders force 8 stand-by spirit to confuse all enemies, and averts eyes, takes cover if possible. Special ops quickdraws flashpack, asks enemies to say "cheese!", averts eyes, zaps em, and looks for cover; sometimes, if we think a specific target is especially dangerous, this gal will drop them with a 14D sniper rifle instead.

By the time any but the very fastest enemies even gets to go, there's either a force 7+ barrier (reduce power by seven, stop power < 7 attacks cold, +1TN) or almost all of the enemies are knocked out, remaining enemies have to make a Willpower( 8 ) roll just to act AND suffer a +8 TN to all actions even if they make the roll, plus an additional +4 TN (or +2 with flare compensation) for all sight-based TNs (sorcery, combat).

Usually after this, even the largest forces are pretty ineffectual; most of the enemies won't even TRY to do anything due to confusion, those that do suffer TNs of +8-13 plus whatever cover we found, and we have the rest of the combat turn to do whatever we need to do. Usually, that involves the katana-elf and special ops chick taking care of anything on this side of the barrier, and the summoner mage having his two force 5 great form salamanders fry enemies on the other side of the barrier; what doesn't fall to the flames falls to the ammo cook off. Sometimes, it involves having the special ops chick having the droned Prarie Cat of doom that we keep driving a couple blocks away fire off a Ballista Mark III and guide it in with a laser target designator towards any hard (vehicular) targets.

If the other side has a spirit or two, that's not really a big deal either. A pack of watchers flying air superiority generally takes care of them -- they're rediculously effective at force 4 when you include the friendlies-in-melee +4/-4 modifier combination. 4L gets staged up to 4S with alarming frequency.

The main issue always ends up being how fast the other side can get reinforcements on site, because after the first salvo, the entire enemy force is basically hosed.

Of course, this gets fugly if they get the drop on us, but the point is that the size of the enemy force isn't an issue if you can control the encounter. Pick a good spot, pick a good strategy, and most importantly obtain the element of suprise, and you win.

(Of course, the real point of this is that you should never accept a run where you are on the defensive and/or the enemy picks the field, because the GM will do this EXACT SAME THING to you, and then it's you who dies -- we had to develop these nasty tactics because the GM once suprised us and bottled us up in a safehouse, and it was only by the thinnest of threads we escaped -- we had been smart and set a ward on the safehouse in advance, so the enemy spirits and mages couldn't do anything to us)
Necro Tech
Outdoor fights are where the reloading really starts. Our last game involved target numbers of 11-16 due to smoke, light, range, cover and movement. In my case, defaulting. My group reloads quite a bit because full auto-fire is guaranteed to kill just about anyone if you hit them. suppression is also key with the party's SAW. I have had characters empty three 50 rnd shotgun drums, change hundred rnd belts, reload their assault rifles 2 or three times and have personally reloaded my Ares Alpha UBGL 5 times (yes that's 40 grenades) during an assault on a prison. I could have kept reloading but I ran out of ammo.

You apply ALL target numbers and the fight can last quite a while.
littlesean
I have a mage that carries an Eichiro Hatamoto II. Single round capacity. On the occasion he uses it, he has his ally reload it for him. About half the time, the target is not even living. It is kind of like having a low level Wreck(almost anything) spell with no drain. Vehicles are just a little more than it can handle, but most bikes will fall to a well placed shot. It is also handy for softening up enemy mages wink.gif

"Here is a little trick Mom taught me while you weren't looking" for those who get that reference.
nezumi
Hrm... I don't think I'd allow someone else to reload a gun you're currently wielding, especially a break-action gun. For one, it messes with the idea that everyone is going simultaneously. Secondly, guns aren't generally made to be reloaded like that, and I'd expect the odds of it jamming, or it taking longer to reload are pretty high.
littlesean
Sorry, left out a word there "...ally spirit..."

I don't use the ally spirit for combat actions, but something as simple as reloading a break action fire arm is well within its capabilities. I usually use the intervening action to sling a spell, or assess the situation astrally or something else useful, while I wait for the gun. I only sometimes actually use the second shot, but if I need it, it is ready.
nezumi
I understood, I just don't think it'd be really feasible. I mean the spirit would have to manifest to do it, unless he has a magical 'exchange magazine' spell. His only advantage is that he's smaller, and so less likely to get in the way. Everything else still stands.
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