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Crimson Jack
I can't say that I've seen a mid-combat encounter firearm reload in a while. Which leads me to ask how common this is, if at all.
Arethusa
Thanks to SR's insane level of efficiency often unreasonable magazine capacities, I have never reloaded in combat. Often, not even through an entire run.
Fygg Nuuton
Rarely is there a combat where I empty a weapon and need to reload or switch.
toturi
I run by the motto "Conserve ammo". Therefore I do not find myself reloading in combat often(sometimes it is more of a case of an ammo change - from EX-EX to AP).
BitBasher
In my games with the burst fire eating rounds and allll the vision mods/movement/cover penalties it is not uncommon for my players to need to reload. I've had the same player reload multiple times even.
Krazy
It depends a lot on the char, the pistol only guys seem to have to reload more (and when the troll reloaded the belt fed we knew things were bad) I tend to do ammo changes, (APDS to HP or back) but not that often
Raygun
I have found occasion to reload during combat several times. Though it has mostly occurred during more military-type operations, when autofire, as well as situational and environmental modifiers that a lot of groups tend to leave out for simplicity's sake, are used liberally.

But in the grand scheme of my shadowrunning experience, it does happen very rarely.
fistandantilus4.0
As I tend to run more towards pistols when I play a character that's primarily firearms, I tend to go wiot hextended clips whenever possible. The scary thing was, I was playing a character with an assualt shotgun (the Ensfield I think) the other day, with the drum of shells (50 rnds), and was in such a nasty fight, Ialsmot did have to reload. I din't expect to ever have to ,s oit wasn't like I was carrying a second drum, or even extra shells!
mmu1
I very rarely reload during actual combat - when I do, it's usually to swap ammo types rather than because I'm out, although I think I do run out once in a great while when using an AR on burst fire.

More frequently, I swap a partially full mag for a new one during a lull in combat just to be on the safe side.
Trax
I always switch a partially full mag with a fresh one after every fight. And if Iave time I reload those mags when the waiting is longer.
Critias
By the time you've got a 9+ in any given (much less 2-3) firearm skill, it's rare for a baddie to survive more than a single action (two simple actions is about the worst it's taken me). The only time most of those shots will add up to more ammo than a given magazine carries is if, in the course of a single encounter, you're shooting at more than 8-10 bad guys. If you're attacked, as a single shooter-type, by more than 8-10 bad guys, you won't survive to empty the magazine.

As such, no. Reloading isn't much of an issue. If there are enough bad guys to soak up a standard SMG magazine, there are enough bad guys to shoot you head by way of sheer numbers.
Kagetenshi
If there's a lull, I reload. That said, I've never fired enough rounds during a single combat to necessitate reloading.

The fact that in recent times I've mostly been playing Riggers whose weapons typically have at least a hundred rounds attached doesn't hurt, though.

~J
noname_hero
It is extremely rare for my characters to reload during a combat. Of course, I tend to play mages, and that means I don't rely on firearms that much, but even other character types rarely have to reload in our games. Most characters replace a partially-spent clip with a full one after every combat, and runners rarely get into prolonged firefights.

The only time I can recall having an empty magazine during a combat was when my rigger fired all 5 rounds from his Remington 950 - and even then I didn't waste time with reloading, he pulled out his Predator...

I'd say that as a general rule, SR rules and ammo capacities are such that smart runners are quite likely to start running out of enemies, or running away, or running out of health boxes long before their clips run out of bullets.
Earthwalker
I had one character with a CMDT that seemed to need to reload alot in combat. Most characters tho its not much of a problem.
Demosthenes
Once upon a time, I reloaded my gun fairly frequently in combat...

Of course, that was back in SR2, and I was playing a lightly wired street-sam.
Using a Defiance T-250, which iirc, had a 5-round internal magazine...
Gambitt
QUOTE (earthwalker)
I had one character with a CMDT that seemed to need to reload alot in combat. Most characters tho its not much of a problem.


Aye atari always was emptying that puppy... dont think you could fire more than 3 bursts before it was dry.
Cray74
QUOTE (Crimson Jack @ May 27 2005, 01:31 AM)
I can't say that I've seen a mid-combat encounter firearm reload in a while.  Which leads me to ask how common this is, if at all.

About every third or fourth combat I seem to need to reload. Generally, the combat's over before I'm out of ammo.

However, I tend to use a full auto fire from weapons capable of it, usually for suppressive fire, so I can burn through clips quickly. 10 rounds heading down-range empties even SR clips quickly. So, in the combats where I'm using FA weapons (about every third or fourth combat), I do tend to need to reload.
nezumi
Hmm... I'm a big believer in making combat a little tougher, so there are more misses with my people apparently, but even then, my group rarely reloads.

They do reload when changing ammo types, laying down obscene amounts of suppressive fire/full auto or when, for character reasons, they use a weapon with a small ammunition capacity (revolvers or even *gasp* crossbows).
Squinky
I think the "coolest" time I've ever had to reload in combat ( I had a revolver and move by wire) I fired my last round at an ork (offed him) and then casualy walked towards two other orks during reloading and then capped them both in the head....He was really fast...and apparently, I am really cheesy...

But, even with a revolver, if I took aimed shots combat would usauly end before I used all six rounds. Then after every combat you reload...
Lindt
I have had a PC reload 2 different guns in the same fire fight. But then an HVAR burns ammo like no ones busniess, and a hold out only has 4 shots...
Dawnshadow
two guns, 15 round clips.. about one combat in four I have to reload. Specialization 10, most people don't survive more than one hit, but every so often there's someone/something that does. Usually reload in combat lulls though -- depends on how many rounds were expended.

That being said, it's virtually never single shooter against mob reloading. Usually it's down to one or two vs one -- or no extra ammo anyway, so melee. Although that only happens rarely, and usually they don't have weapons.
Jrayjoker
I try to get by without ever having to shoot. It almost always works out that I dont have to reload. I also try to use incapacitation rather than killing. Fewer enemies later.
Austere Emancipator
Realistic RoFs + playing smart + enforcing all the TN modifiers = lots of reloading. Severely reducing the amount of Recoil Compensation while still keeping shooting fast a valid tactic in CQB also helps.
Edward
I donít think my current character ever had to reload but some have in the past,

A SPAZ using Sharman I played had to a couple of times I think but not very often.

The only times recently I have seen a need to reload was when we where in the arcology and when a blood mage put a high force barrier spell up (most of the group emptied there clips bringing it down).

Most fights I see donít last long enough to go for cover (although I normally take some behind a drone if I can). Those that do normally donít stay a shootout; the party will usually retreat or use grenades to solve the problem. Also when dealing with gangs or other enemies with a numbers advantage we tend to go for aria effect spells or grenades to bring down there numbers rather than shoot each one individually so even those fights donít last long.

This is not to say we carry lots of grenades, just one or two, or an under barrel launcher full.

Edward
Shadow
If combat is going to be harsh and I know it I pack an M-23 with a 40 round mag. I have had to reload it several times. Usually cause I have a penchant for full auto fire.
Crimsondude 2.0
My sam is walking into a commando assault in one game on SL with an M-23 and four extra mags just itching to be used, plus his backup weapons.
Smiley
I gots two 15-round mags in two burst-fire pistols. Combat doesn't last long enough for me to reload, since there are 3 other 200 karma 'runners fighting whatever opposition we eoncounter.
Wounded Ronin
Reloading is rare, and that makes me sad. SR combat is too efficient; the to-hits are too easy to roll.
Cpt_Haddock
My character must rarely reload. 10 rounds of slug ammo from a Franchi SPAS are usually all that's needed to end a firefight. But seeing her reloading her gun is quite stunning. Remember the rules for reloading magazines (Quickness rounds per complex action)? Full magazine reload shell by shell in about 1 second can be quite frightening smile.gif (Okay, this rule is a little bit broken, but a helluva fun)
psykotisk_overlegen
I've seen characters reload street-sweepers or similar weapons with extremely limited ammo-capacity, other than that only full-auto ever empties a clip before combat ends. My going record is 3 sessions in hostile terrain without reload, and that was with a 10 or 8 clip pistol.
BitBasher
Do most of you GM's out there just never properly apply lighting, movement, Cover and other visual mods? How are the PC's TN's so low as to never need to reload?

Commonly in my games most gunfights occur in probably minimal light with all the the combatants taking 4 or 6 points of cover. The cover alone gives a +6 to +9 to all TN's without even accounting for lighting conditions and movement.

Remember if they move that movement penalty stays with them for the entire rest of the combat turn until they roll initiative again.

Combat TN's are usually in the 9-12+ range unless it's an ambush scenario. This means few sucesses even if the players are rolling a smackton of dice and dodges with combat pool are fairly easy because most of the time the TN for dodge sucesses stays at 4-6, and they dont need more than a handful of sucesses.

How does it work otherwise? TN's handed on a silver platter?
Edward
I found the SPAZ to be one of the weapons that actually did need a reload, but then I was using BF and 3 shots is often not enough.

We have normally engaged in combat in moderately well light arias (corporate hallways or parking lots) we rarely run if we still intend to fight and the enemy rarely survives long enough to seek cover, and as I said before, when that happens you just switch to grenades or elemental ball spells

Edward
BitBasher
QUOTE
We have normally engaged in combat in moderately well light arias (corporate hallways or parking lots) we rarely run if we still intend to fight and the enemy rarely survives long enough to seek cover, and as I said before, when that happens you just switch to grenades or elemental ball spells
So nearly every single combat is a surprise or ambush where the enemies can't get to cover? Cover is kind of the big one.
Streak
Well, if any of your characters have used a Ruger Thunderbolt then you must have reloaded! It's magazine carries 12 rounds, fires in burst mode only which means you can fire 4 shots before needing to reload. You can fire 2 shots as two simple actions in burst fire mode, which means cybered characters can actually empty the Ruger in one round.

In my particular campaign i am running, my PCs have empited clips with the Ruger, Assult Rifle and even a shotgun since they were using mostly burst fire and were involved in a contained firefight in cramped quarters. Needless to say this resulted in several casualties .... luckily only NPCs.
Kagetenshi
You've just discovered why no character I can remember having in one of my games has ever used the Thunderbolt.

~J
Crimson Jack
Indeed. Ammo hog.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Do most of you GM's out there just never properly apply lighting, movement, Cover and other visual mods? How are the PC's TN's so low as to never need to reload?

Commonly in my games most gunfights occur in probably minimal light with all the the combatants taking 4 or 6 points of cover. The cover alone gives a +6 to +9 to all TN's without even accounting for lighting conditions and movement.

Remember if they move that movement penalty stays with them for the entire rest of the combat turn until they roll initiative again.

Combat TN's are usually in the 9-12+ range unless it's an ambush scenario. This means few sucesses even if the players are rolling a smackton of dice and dodges with combat pool are fairly easy because most of the time the TN for dodge sucesses stays at 4-6, and they dont need more than a handful of sucesses.

How does it work otherwise? TN's handed on a silver platter?

Cover is +4 TN, dude, unless you're using expanded optional rules.
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ May 28 2005, 12:03 PM)
Do most of you GM's out there just never properly apply lighting, movement, Cover and other visual mods? How are the PC's TN's so low as to never need to reload?

Commonly in my games most gunfights occur in probably minimal light with all the the combatants taking 4 or 6 points of cover. The cover alone gives a +6 to +9 to all TN's without even accounting for lighting conditions and movement.

Remember if they move that movement penalty stays with them for the entire rest of the combat turn until they roll initiative again.

Combat TN's are usually in the 9-12+ range unless it's an ambush scenario. This means few sucesses even if the players are rolling a smackton of dice and dodges with combat pool are fairly easy because most of the time the TN for dodge sucesses stays at 4-6, and they dont need more than a handful of sucesses.

How does it work otherwise? TN's handed on a silver platter?

Cover is +4 TN, dude, unless you're using expanded optional rules.

Point still being that target numbers for most actions in combat *should* be larger than smaller for the most part. This is one of those things that comes up when someone asks how they can make their games more challenging for their players. When asked if they're applying all of the correct situational modifiers, most have forgotten about them, considering the base target number the end-all be-all number to be concerned with.

Most of the time, our combats are resolved within the span of two Initiatives. Quick and deadly normally. Rarely long and drawn out.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ May 28 2005, 12:03 PM)
Do most of you GM's out there just never properly apply lighting, movement, Cover and other visual mods? How are the PC's TN's so low as to never need to reload?

Commonly in my games most gunfights occur in probably minimal light with all the the combatants taking 4 or 6 points of cover. The cover alone gives a +6 to +9 to all TN's without even accounting for lighting conditions and movement.

Remember if they move that movement penalty stays with them for the entire rest of the combat turn until they roll initiative again.

Combat TN's are usually in the 9-12+ range unless it's an ambush scenario. This means few sucesses even if the players are rolling a smackton of dice and dodges with combat pool are fairly easy because most of the time the TN for dodge sucesses stays at 4-6, and they dont need more than a handful of sucesses.

How does it work otherwise? TN's handed on a silver platter?

Cover is +4 TN, dude, unless you're using expanded optional rules.

Actually in the basic rules it's +4 for the person in cover and another +2 if you're shooting from cover. That's +6 to start out with not counting movement and lighting, etc.

My point remains. Because of the fact that everyone gets to go on the first pass cover is usually a high priority. If they like not being ventilated that is.
Mortax
Most char I play don't use guns.
I always go for stealth, and most of the time can get the job done without much fighting.
Smiley
Where's the fun in that?
Crimson Jack
QUOTE (Mortax)
Most char I play don't use guns.
I always go for stealth, and most of the time can get the job done without much fighting.

"I sneak up to him and socialize it out." wink.gif
Wounded Ronin
Shooting from cover inflicts a +2 TN? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Damnit, I didn't know that. I've played SR with 2 groups over like 5 years and not a single person has known that. Not even this one killer GM who killed my character every other session.

I think I need to take a break from Shadowrun to, like, reread all the rules and make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Every time I come to DSF, I find out that I've been doing something wrong all along.

I partially blame the way that the sourcebooks are written, where key information is often rather hidden. For example, the only place in SR3 where it says spirits have Immunity to Normal Weapons as a default is on pg. 188 of SR3. This is never again mentioned in SR3 or MiTS, so it would be very, very easy for someone to miss.



EDIT: Heeeeyyyyy.....! I just checked pg. 112 in SR3 and I don't see any "shooting from cover +2" penalty listed there.

Well, that's good. I guess I don't have to give up shadowrun in order to meditate on the rules.
psykotisk_overlegen
Was that sarcasm? wink.gif
toturi
BitBasher could have make his point clearer.

By the basic SR3 rules, it is +4 for Partial Cover (p 111 and 112 SR3). If you are using the advance rules in CC, then there is an additional +2 if you have Partial Cover yourself.
Critias
Or, to be more specific, the "firing from cover" rules in CC just pretty much always give you a penalty equal to 1/2 the penalty people get who are shooting at you. If you've got a bit of cover, they get a +2 and you a +1. Half cover (the default from the BBB), +4/+2. Almost total cover, +6/+3. Pretty easy/handy to remember.
Krazy
does anyone know why there is a + modifier for shooting from cover? shooting at cover I just call it a called shot unless the char wants to try to shoot where the person is supposed to be (love HMGs and panthers)
I'd personaly give -1 recoil due to bracing. i've shot from cover, (generaly the best way to do it) and if you can see the target hitting is no harder (easier sometimes 'cuz you can settle down a bit) The plus should go to preseption tests due to the limited FOV. the other one I don't get is blind fire. you can't hit what you can't see, but somehow a greater skill level can magicly make your bullets hit what you want?
BitBasher
QUOTE (Krazy)
does anyone know why there is a + modifier for shooting from cover? shooting at cover I just call it a called shot unless the char wants to try to shoot where the person is supposed to be (love HMGs and panthers)
I'd personaly give -1 recoil due to bracing. i've shot from cover, (generaly the best way to do it) and if you can see the target hitting is no harder (easier sometimes 'cuz you can settle down a bit) The plus should go to preseption tests due to the limited FOV. the other one I don't get is blind fire. you can't hit what you can't see, but somehow a greater skill level can magicly make your bullets hit what you want?

Because Taking cover is popping out to shoot then hiding again, it's not standing there statically with half your body exposed. The penalty representes the movement and the fact you can't take a decent shooting stance while hiding behind and shooting around things.

The fact that you're popping in and out is also the reason that if you're shooting a target behind cover and you call a shot on them you should be adding the penalties together, and there's nothing that says otherwise. You don't get to reduce penalties by making a more difficult shot (Calling a shot).
Wireknight
The only time I've had to reload, in recent history, was when a character of mine was basically walking through a jungle of living Awakened vines, that all seemed pretty eager to pummel or constrict him into fertilizer. I think by the end of the encounter, he managed to go through two magazines; one over the course of a fairly long transit and the other from full to empty in the space of a single well-rolled combat turn wherein all his actions were dedicated to three-round bursts.
Angelone
Before my mage bought it dead.gif, a few nights ago, I'd reload about 25% of the time. Now I'm a Street Sam/backup decker and I need to reload a few times a fight, but I end up just switching guns.
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