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Jrayjoker
Not necessary
mfb
the non-fundies here have greater ability to resist.
Jrayjoker
True, but for how long?
Garland
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Is it just me, or is the current political situation in the USA trending toward a fundamentalist religious regime? How is that different than a fundamentalist regime in a mostly islamic country?

Can we keep the political chicken little bulldrek on forums that are built for it? Please?
Jrayjoker
Not constructive
mfb
you can't look at one president and say "oh noes!". i mean, look at Clinton--he made some not-indecent headway in religious tolerance. then, the pendulum swung back the other way, and we get Bush. maybe the next president will start the pendulum swinging back the other way, maybe it'll be the president after that.

yes, it's a danger, and it's something that needs to be kept in mind. but the pendulum has swung in this direction before, and it's swung much further in this direction in the past (McCarthy? Japanese interrment camps?) than where it's at now.
hermit
QUOTE
becasuse I'm the top of the food chain and they need to be remined of that?

And I assume you remind dragons of that, too? wink.gif

QUOTE
That's just not true. I went through Marine Corps boot camp and I'm still the same person I was before. To compare boot camp and the de-gaying camp is ignorant and is over-generalizing. Yes, there are USMC recruits that take it waaaay too far and drop off the deep end, but boot camp itself is nothing like this religious gulag. The purpose is to teach and train, not re-educate. I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but there really IS a big difference.

I am not equating USMC training and a religious gulag like this. What I was saying was that the USMC uses some techniques this camp abuses, and being sent to the USMC - in my knowledge - is a viable option in the US penal system, meaning you can be sentenced to do that (or rather, opt to join the force instead of doing time in jail) for some crimes.

And that leads to more acceptance for gulag-stlye camps, like this one (or a couple of others the US government operates) with the US public.

QUOTE

I also grew up Mormon and they ARE guilty of brainwashing.

Yup. I dated a Mormon once (briefly), and the poor girl was a mental wreck from what they did to her.

QUOTE
boot camp doesn't play any part in the US penal system that i'm aware of.

I am not talking about Army boot camp (though, for all I know, joining the army can be considered instead of doing time in jail), but about such camps. Click here for another view on them. And these camps DO play a part in US penal system. Also, they're used by parents to have their 'troubled' teens 'straightened out'.

And as such institutions are accepted in large parts of US society, "de-gaying camps" and religious brainwash camps can slip through the cracks.

QUOTE
Degaying camps are perhaps the polar opposite of my view/practice/faith as a Christian. Am I angered by the mere concept? Yes. But it makes me sad more than anything.

Well, it's not only christian sects (and related, like Mormons) who're guilty of this. Scientology is no better.

QUOTE
the non-fundies here have greater ability to resist.

Wish I had your faith in them.
Jrayjoker
Nope, nothing constructive here.
mfb
we sang shouted manfully at the tops of our lungs a lot of cadences about "go to war or go to jail", in basic, but i don't know of anybody who ever actually had that option while i was in.
Jrayjoker
Meaningless, troll-like behavior removed.
Kagetenshi
Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides.

~J
hermit
Then maybe it is rare or out dated, I guess.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Critias)
Yup. Nothing says "moral high ground like "premeditated mass murder."

Its not a matter of complete moral highground so much as high moral ends no matter the means.

The people who run these camps and send their children there believe that the ends do justify the means. It is a lesser evil for a greater good in their minds.

They are right to some extent. If this was a de-raping camp for rapists and child molesters on parole most people would agree that their methods don't do far enough.

What really gets us upset is the fact that their ends are completely and totaly wrong. They are taking away someone natural rights and freedoms for no other reason than hatred and intollerance.

Stoping them is a good end. If the ends justify the means on a morally then stoping them with violence is good if there is no better way.
ShadowDragon8685
I imagine the corporate version is quite well spread.

Think about it. You're a midlevel executive at <insert megacorp here>, and you have a rebellious youth who seems to be romancing up visions of people like FastJack and Captain Chaos, and who hates you. You're not important enough to have your son have a visit with some psychotropic IC designed to fix him in a jiffy, but not to fear, your corp has it's midlevel men covered in the removal of parental responsibilities department, too!

Jr. and Mary Sue gaying it up with their own gender, and you don't like it? Maybe they're romancing CRIMINALS, and doing their best to avoid an honest day's work, like you? Well, no problem. Send 'em on down to Company Camp! In a few weeks to a few months, tops, they'll be hardworking wage slaves like you, and any other ajustments you want made can be arranged, at a bit of a fee, of course.




And due to Extraterritoriality, it's all 100% legal. And I'm sure the religions can still come up with a few of these.
hermit
QUOTE
Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides.

Now,this is something that has puzzled me about the Shadowrun setting (particularily in NA) for a long time.

Why is it that, even when magic starts working again and spirits that, for what it's worth, are god-like in power to puny mortals, make their presence known, and abiout 5% of all priests statistically can pull Angels out of thin air to impress the faithful, that religion has lost ground? It's pretty easy to be an atheist if there's no tangible proof of the supernatural. It's pretty damn hard (I imagine) if that evangelical nut job can pull an arcangel out of his ass (assuming he's following a shamanic path, rather than a hermetic) to raid places of sin. I really think religion should be more, not less, prominent in society, all over the world, with the awakening and everything.

Anyway, such camps should be much easier to set up. North America is fragmented, the Us has broken up into some ten smaller, poorer, less organised states. Some areas are next to anarchic (CalFree, parts of the UCAs and CAS, Carribean League). I also would expect a strong survivalist/wagon fort mentality in those anglo reservations, which could well lead to such camps to straighten out kids who step out of line - survivalist communisties under siege are hardly fair and tolerant.

EDIT: Though it just occurred to me that they needn't use crude techniques on par with a boot camp. All they really need is a decent psychotropic Black Ice. I mean, Deus did it, didn't he?
Arethusa
QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 21 2005, 12:24 PM)
we sang shouted manfully at the tops of our lungs a lot of cadences about "go to war or go to jail", in basic, but i don't know of anybody who ever actually had that option while i was in.

I don't believe it's very common and I'm not familiar with the laws that deal with it, but it has happened at least a few times. One of the rangers who fought and died in Mogadishu originally joined when he was given a choice between the Army and jail.

[edit]

Though maybe going to war instead of going to jail was more in reference to draft dodging?
Modesitt
QUOTE
being sent to the USMC - in my knowledge - is a viable option in the US penal system, meaning you can be sentenced to do that (or rather, opt to join the force instead of doing time in jail) for some crimes.


Judges can and have ordered people to do a lot of strange things as a part of their sentencing. For example, I remember one case where a judge ordered a juvenile delinquent who was citing the harshness of his life being why he did what he did to spend a day with a disabled man. This particular man had no arms or legs, but wrestled competitively.

Have people been told in the past to join the military or go to jail? Yes. It wasn't unknown in Korea or Vietnam. However, three of the services(Army, Air Froce, and Marines) now have have explicit statements in their recruiting standards that say they CANNOT accept such applicants. The fouth one(Navy) lacks an explicit statement in their recruiting manual about accepting people sentenced to join the military, but unofficially Navy recruiters would never accept those people.

The military has MUCH higher standards than it did in the past.
Arethusa
We'll see how well these high standards hold up after a couple more years of Vietnam II: Iraq.
Jrayjoker
Not for long if things keep up the way they are.


Trolling edited out. Its not constructive in any way, shape, or form.
Jrayjoker
Bad joker, no doughnut!
ShadowDragon8685
The problem with the primary religions in Shadowrun is that they are all monothestic, and all of them tout that no one shall hold anything above God Almighty.


And yet there's Shamans of everything from Gator to Toaster (It's in the SSG,) to prove Him wrong. They're holding something above Him, and they get rewarded. While the Christians can still produce... Nothing? No flaming swords, no Gardens of Eden, no plauges 'pon the land to smite teh wicked...


I imagine that the pagan religions had a bit of an upsurge, especially with real Shamans leading. Then again, I doubt many of the Totems are evangelical; what do they give a hoot if the unAwakened pray to them or not?


So really, the only thing that the monotheistic religions have going for them are shysters and hucksters and frauds, and the real Shamans and Hermetic Mages can easily disprove them - after all, it's hard to say that your God is the only God when they find a totem of Rat behind your cross.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Any thoughts as to whether these camps would be more or less common in the 2050s/60s? It certainly seems like many areas they'd be trivial to set up, and all it takes is a single fundamentalist AA and they're on solid legal ground too, but it seems to me that religion has lost a lot of strength in Shadowrun. Then again, this may be in no small part due to an attempt by the writers to avoid getting their asses sued off by reflecting the amount of stupidity that goes on on all sides.

~J

Today, many of these camps are set up outside of the US in countries that have more lienent, ineffective, or bribable governemnts. These camps are the ones that are the most abusive. Often, they hire guards from the local populations and don't give them any sort of training. There is much physical abuse and often sexual abuse and rape.

However, it must be said that there are some good youth rehabilitiation camps out there. These are the ones that have trained and certified staff along with an airtight system of oversight. They are much fewer than the bad ones.

They shouldn't be too uncommon. However, these camps appeal to people who live a high lifestyle. The costs of sending someone to one is pretty high, so they won't have many clients. Corps would handle their own. Freelance camps would be around for people who are still citizens of an actual country.


However, it should be pointed out that personafixes are both cheaper and safer than camps. Any actuary will point this out. The only problem with personafixes is that parents would be reluctant to have their children's brains scrambeled. Camps seem like a friendlier alternative and actually can be if they are handeled correctly.
Corps should have no compunctions about using personafixes on uppity wageslaves, however.
hermit
QUOTE

The military has MUCH higher standards than it did in the past.

In a perfect world, that woudl be true. However, as people are apparently less keen on joining the army if that'll mean they'll be sent off into a faraway desert land where they get their limbs blown off while fighting a war they don't really think makes sense in the first place, the army simply cannot afford such high standards any more. So says the NY Times.

Lenice Hawk
Oh get over it. This is a shadowrun forum, started to ask a question about a run. If someone wants to try and keep the political rabbit trails out of it, they have every right to do so. Especially since it is unlikely to make any change (IE Democrat/Republican or Pro/Anti War) in peoples views.

Unfortunately, these camps do exist. People take good things or even mediocre things and make them nutso. If I were running or on this run, I'd want to do enough killing and destruction to make sure this camp couldn't restart.

Lenice Hawk
Yes, and the NY times is incredibly credible. Who was that reporter who forged his stories for years, and they never figured it out? Oh, and two "anonymous" sources were proven to be false...Good rule for SR: Know your sources.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Arethusa)
We'll see how well these high standards hold up after a couple more years of Vietnam II: Iraq.
QUOTE (Hermit)
Now,this is something that has puzzled me about the Shadowrun setting (particularily in NA) for a long time.

Why is it that, even when magic starts working again and spirits that, for what it's worth, are god-like in power to puny mortals, make their presence known, and abiout 5% of all priests statistically can pull Angels out of thin air to impress the faithful, that religion has lost ground? It's pretty easy to be an atheist if there's no tangible proof of the supernatural. It's pretty damn hard (I imagine) if that evangelical nut job can pull an arcangel out of his ass (assuming he's following a shamanic path, rather than a hermetic) to raid places of sin. I really think religion should be more, not less, prominent in society, all over the world, with the awakening and everything.

Because the atheists can pull them out of the air as well. Sure your local priest can pull angels out of the air, but that guy over there can do the same thing, and he pisses on a cross at least once a day. Also, consider the way magic was received by most major religious sects: completely and utterly rejected. Consider the above situation, only take away the priest pulling angels, and turn that into his having the ability to call devils into being. Sure he doesn't, but he can.

I'd be surprised if there was much non-fanatical faith left, really.

~J
hermit
In a campaign that has paused somewhat so that the characters can 'enjoy' Brainscan (I put it in parenthesises because there have been three near-casualities and one true casuality as of yet, not because I dislike the module, which is great), we (rather accidentally) came across a different kind of camp the Japanese government had set up:

The camp was basicaly a suburbian patch of roads and houses, surrounded by endless Taiga in northern China. It was within a Japanese mandate zone, and there was nothing for thousands of kilometers around it except a couple of military installations.

Now, the Empire put Orcs from Yomi there (aparently, the place was starting to overflow). They were given residence in the houses, and were allowed to give interviews to TV teams to prove Japan DOES care about metas. Then, when the TV cameras were gone, the windows slammed shut at night and the houses were flooded with Seven-Seven. The dead orcs were disposed of, the few who survived or were outside when it happened gunned down, and the procedure repeated every some months.

Nice, eh?

QUOTE
Yes, and the NY times is incredibly credible. Who was that reporter who forged his stories for years, and they never figured it out? Oh, and two "anonymous" sources were proven to be false...Good rule for SR: Know your sources.

Well well, first you tell us off and then you pick a fight yourself? Bad, bad republican.
Critias
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)

Oh wait, here in Amurka I can't say shit like that!

Sorry Garland. Fuck you.

You can say whatever you want in America. Thing is, right now, you're not in America -- you're in the middle of a Shadowrun discussion board, and not even the part(s) of it that may or may not specifically allow non-SR discussion topics (I'm not sure if such nooks and crannies still exist).

Fact is, "freedom of speech" doesn't equal "freedom to talk about whatever I want, whenever I want, on or off topic, in the midst of the magical realm of teh intraweb."

Go start your shit on a politics forum. Not a Shadowrun one. Or, if you insist on starting your shit on a Shadowrun forum, be mature enough to deal with the fact other people might not care for it, and deal with their opinions with something more adult than a "fuck you" and a series of "I'm not commeting!" bullshit little kid responses.

Grow up.
Supercilious
I would rather this thread not get locked, and if I know anything it is that arguing opinions never solves anything.

A debate might, but even then that tends to influence the edgey or undecided people. If an opinion has been formed, it takes years to break it down, not a single post. Both sides of this are preaching to their respective choirs and then turning like rabid dogs on the opposition, unable to see how they believe what they believe. Also, Joker, even though I agree with you, you have to be an idiot not to see that telling Garland "fuck you" every other post is not the best way to win people over, or to avoid getting a good topic closed.

On the subject of the run, I am so totally going to run this for my PC's, the idea is brilliant, purely brilliant.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
The problem with the primary religions in Shadowrun is that they are all monothestic, and all of them tout that no one shall hold anything above God Almighty.


And yet there's Shamans of everything from Gator to Toaster (It's in the SSG,) to prove Him wrong. They're holding something above Him, and they get rewarded. While the Christians can still produce... Nothing? No flaming swords, no Gardens of Eden, no plauges 'pon the land to smite teh wicked...


I imagine that the pagan religions had a bit of an upsurge, especially with real Shamans leading. Then again, I doubt many of the Totems are evangelical; what do they give a hoot if the unAwakened pray to them or not?


So really, the only thing that the monotheistic religions have going for them are shysters and hucksters and frauds, and the real Shamans and Hermetic Mages can easily disprove them - after all, it's hard to say that your God is the only God when they find a totem of Rat behind your cross.

It isn't even that really. Magic is a science. Mairacles that can be explained aren't maricles. Mysteries loose their alure once they are explained and understood.

3000 years ago rain was the gods peeing or something like that. Today we know that it is caused by clouds of water vapor that condense in the low temperatures of the upper atmosphere. God doesn't have to have a direct hand in it.

The same is true with magic. Before the awakening if a giant floating rock ate opened your refridgerator and ate your turkey sandwitch you would think it was a ghost, demon, or alien. After the awakening you would simply know that Bob the mage next door passed out from drain while summoning an Earth Elemental. You would still be at a loss as to why it wanted your turkey sandwitch but that isn't really the point.


If a Free Spirit can pose as a God them all most if not all Gods are probably Free Spirits.
Since the dawn of civilization religions have been plauged by people who cant help but peek behing he curtain. The more you see of the man behind the curtain the less awe inspiring he is.

In the end, you have to take the Watchmaker view of God. If there is a supreme being he has left the picture and is just letting us do whatever we want.

Talia Invierno
The premise of what's generally called "brainwashing" and what I'd rephrase as a more intense form of social conditioning is to set up an environment such that the person will start to desire the elements of the new paradigm of his or her own accord. Although precisely the same methods are found in environments as diverse as Moonies, Boy Scouts, frat initiations and those infamous 72 hour medical resident shifts, every type of this type of social conditioning depends on some combination of similar elements:
  1. making it difficult to critically think about what's around you (not that most of us have particularly well-developed critical thinking skills in any case);
  2. presenting the new message in an intensely positive context (making it desirable);
  3. some element of physical adversity ...
  4. to be overcome in a positive group environment (promoting a "team spirit")
The single most common technique is lack of sleep, which fills the requirements for #1 and #3 (and frequently #4) simultaneously. (I'm using the word "technique" guardedly. Since the various elements by which results are achieved are so very similar across many different social structures, acceptability of these practices depends almost entirely on acceptability of the outcome: but to term them "techniques" or "methods" often seems to imply a degree of deliberate premeditation which sometimes does exist, and sometimes has been so entrenched as to have become an accepted "Well, that's just the way it is" by all those involved.) Quite simply, after an extended stretch without sleep, you can't think straight. On a parallel survival note: if you're ever in an emergency room and the resident seeing you hands your chart to the nurse to read aloud, ask for a different doctor ... because loss of ability to make out written words is one of the major indicators that lack of sleep has started to impair cognitive ability.

Almost as common is extended physical activity or ordeal to the limits of one's endurance, either so as to reduce one's entire awareness to the single goal to be achieved, or else simply to endure through it. Such physical activity is almost always undertaken as a group, almost never singly: and thus getting through it becomes the success of the team, not the success of the individual. This is a significant shift in identity, especially in a fundamentally individualistic society. Another aspect of the physical ordeal is that the act of having gotten through it creates a self-perception of a group elitism, especially if one or more persons couldn't: another bonding element, which also builds the expectation that no one should "belong" if they can't make it through. This isn't inherently negative or positive. After all, in the military, such team bonding is a matter of survival ... but such group bonding equally makes it extremely difficult to fairly consider anything that opposes the group paradigm. It's all in how you view the outcome.

What all of this really boils down to is that someone in this position is bombarded with the desired message in such a way that they aren't really able to think about it, and that everyone else around them seems to be working together toward that ideal. Reject it (which is hard!) and be isolated/mocked/scapegoated/disciplined. "Get" it, and they belong. It's simple, and it's powerful: because we're all social creatures at heart. And it's self-selecting, because (to a greater or lesser extent) very few people end up in such a position who aren't already a bit uncertain about how they fit in.

Edit: I'll add a quick note along these lines about why religions might decline in a magical world. Yes, the "miracles" are real ... and that's exactly what's endangering articles of faith. Where daily miracles are real and magical paradigms are multiple, there end up being almost as many explanations out there as there are magicians. Organised religions each give their own explanation ... but there are others. Each group is going to be able to keep their own paradigm solid only by isolating the dangerous outside influences which give equally valid explanations for what they do -- and perversely keep succeeding in doing. The only way they can remain so isolated is if their membership maintains a rock-solid, absolutely unquestioning faith in their own paradigm that evaporates any possible desire to consider fairly other explanations, or even really look at them too closely.

Hmm ...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias)
Fact is, "freedom of speech" doesn't equal "freedom to talk about whatever I want, whenever I want, on or off topic, in the midst of the magical realm of teh intraweb."

More to the point, freedom of speech is expressly limited to freedom from government limitation of speech. Anyone who is not the government is free to attempt to limit your speech (for good or ill) to the fullest extent that they can pursue within the law.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 21 2005, 12:30 PM)
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 21 2005, 12:25 PM)
Fact is, "freedom of speech" doesn't equal "freedom to talk about whatever I want, whenever I want, on or off topic, in the midst of the magical realm of teh intraweb."

More to the point, freedom of speech is expressly limited to freedom from government limitation of speech. Anyone who is not the government is free to attempt to limit your speech (for good or ill) to the fullest extent that they can pursue within the law.

~J

As a wise man once said, freedom of the press is for those who own one.

A message board is a publishing medium. Those who own that message board have the right to determine what is or is not published on it. Their moderators have the right to enforce those determinations with most methods short of tracking down the offending poster and physically beating him or her up.
Supercilious
Kage and Talia FTW.

Who should I base the shaman after? I am thinking that the free spirit will be a golden tinted bovine for ironic purposes, this whole run with be a hilarious cluster-frag. I am giving the townsfolk high-powered Ares NRA gear, so the shootouts should be intense.
blakkie
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jun 21 2005, 11:29 AM)
The premise of what's generally called "brainwashing" and what I'd rephrase as a more intense form of social conditioning is to set up an environment such that the person will start to desire the elements of the new paradigm of his or her own accord. 
....

One way to put the desired view in the most positive like is to surround the initiate with an already "converted" or mostly so people. Someone saying the same thing over and over to you, even when patently false, can be extremely persusive when the person saying it truely believes, or at least can selfdelude themselves enough that it comes across as true. The later being an socially acceptable profession called acting.

Unless you have no capacity or inclination to listen and consider another person's POV repeated exposure to the statements create doubt. Take away the time, energy (limited or low nutrition food is one method), and resources for critical thought to reaffirm what you once accepted as fact and your beliefs can turn upside down.

EDIT: I've experienced this firsthand. Not from a group (just 2-3 people), and in no way was it in a 'religious' context. Nor was it in total immersion environment. But someone was willing to swear complete falsifications under oath. I don't mean just a perspective thing, i mean complete fabrication of fact. It was very disorientating as i would find myself saying "is what i think happened wrong" before i would work out that "no, this is total batshit loco because i was THERE". But this would take time and energy, and i had time to myself. It was an enlighting and disturbing experience i'd rather not repeat.

BTW the farther your beliefs are pushed the quicker that they tend to fade when the initiate leaves the environment that created and sustained them. Especially if the beliefs are logically determental to the initiate.

A number of those kick-the-habit camp operations are based on Synanon or even run by former Synanon members. As for good/bad, here is a page run by a lawyer that was nearly killed by Synanon members under direction by the founder. He has some interesting views and takes, if you'll read One big dysfunctional family. As harsh as this place was it kept some from living what was left of a downward narcotics cycle. Also the girl that grew up from pre-teen to 18 in it talks about the good and the bad.

EDIT: Link fixed, thanks Supercilious.
Jrayjoker
Unnecessary
Supercilious
Blakkie, one "here is a page" is a dead link. You messed up the BBcode, I think.
Austere Emancipator
Copy Link Location/Descramble:
http://www.rickross.com/groups/synanon.html
blakkie
Interestingly you'll notice the description of "the Game" is eirily similar to how you could describe messageboards. indifferent.gif
Supercilious
But only those who already agree with a given bias seek out a messageboard devoted to that specific bias. If I was not a fan of SR, I would not have ever found Dumpshock.
Kagetenshi
On the topic of programming/conditioning techniques, sugar rushes with comparatively other nutrition are generally effective in encouraging a suggestible state. Ever wonder why brownies and kool-aid are such common snacks at cult/etc. recruitment drives?

~J
Talia Invierno
The term for that kind of positive bombarding is "lovebombing". Agree and you get eye contact, smiles, all kinds of positive feedback from everyone around you. Although the Moonies are particularly known for it, it's also found (expressed in slightly different ways) in most supportive venues. Again, the key to receiving that kind of positive reinforcement is that you must not question.

An interesting example of such supportive techniques can be found even within a structure such as Alcoholics Anonymous. So strong is the supportive message of "not one drink" that has been repeated and accepted (even by the general public!) that alternate methods of controlling alcohol addiction found by multiple studies to be equally effective, such as rigid methods of drink reduction, aren't even given press.

For some reason, absolutes seem to be far more condusive to encouraging extreme behaviour modifications than moderation. Yet another example is the annual turn off the television week: televisions off = good, any watching = bad. An alternate approach, that of media literacy and discrimination/critical examination of what is being watched, is rarely given anywhere near as much press.

Edit: It's a curious coincidence that sugar is also addictive, no?
Supercilious
QUOTE (Ziggy)
What are you ranting about? Working for Shiawase's great, they take good care of you--best choice I ever made!
Jrayjoker
My appologies for trolling earlier.
Krazy
thanks for shutting joker down, when people act like that it makes me mad because as soon as a lot of people hear I'm a Chrstian they assume I act like that all the time. I'm just bad at saying what I mean, that's all. as far as a run, I'll probly use this at some point, but the way that my campain is going, I'll just have to drop a few hints and wait for the shooting to start.

someone mentioned why, if a preist can pull up an angel whenever he wants, why more people don't belive? I think it has to do with the supremicy of human arrogance. we as humans can do everything better, individually or collectivly. that's why secular humanism is so popular. you can show as much proof as you want to people, some will not beilive, and yet people will belive the stupidest things if presented in a "balanced and educated news journal" I just don't get it? I must not be smart enough

my comment about art causing just as much confict was, I suppose, ill quantified. yes no one has had a knock down drag 'em out over a peice of art, but not all wars are fought on the field. it is just as damaging to the society, IMHO.

this thread has given me a few other ideas as well, wonder if that little patch in northern alberta is still operational. I know northern BC still has some really messed up shit going on. not realted to the weed industry
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Krazy)
thanks for shutting joker down, when people act like that it makes me mad because as soon as a lot of people hear I'm a Chrstian they assume I act like that all the time. I'm just bad at saying what I mean, that's all. as far as a run, I'll probly use this at some point, but the way that my campain is going, I'll just have to drop a few hints and wait for the shooting to start.

They didn't shut me down, they lovebombed me into seeing my errors. love.gif

(See how I make it seem like I'm not a total prick). love.gif

Appologies have already been sent and extended publicly. I was acting way out of character and have no excuse. This was neither the place nor time for such discussion.

And I'm a Christian too, practicing and faithful.
Supercilious
Ahhh! Organized religion! DEVILS AND DAMNATION!

On a more serious note, every school of thought has a super-biased segment. I have met or seen or heard of militants from every group, similiarly I have met seen or heard of moderates from all those same groups.

Krazy, you point out a good irony, a "fair and balanced" approach gets a lot of votes for a biased view. I know of a few good mannerisms and small bits of speech that are easy to remember and repeat that make people think oneself is truly earnest and "fair" while dishing out pure dogma.

The greatest irony is the free-speech crowd who immediately attack anyone spewing racism, it boggles my mind.
blakkie
QUOTE (Krazy)
this thread has given me a few other ideas as well, wonder if that little patch in northern alberta is still operational. I know northern BC still has some really messed up shit going on. not realted to the weed industry

This one?

Or are you talkin about the Aryan Nations, etc. thing?

Because in the sixth world the former would be redundant, at least the part about fighting the oil & gas industry. The later would have a very tough time of it considering who is running the local government.
Talia Invierno
Recently the Canadian pro-choice advocate of the local version of Roe vs. Wade was selected to be given an honorary doctorate by a university. The controversy erupted instantly and polarised instantly. It seemed that the local newspaper was trying to cover both points of view fairly (with the logical media slight slant toward demonstrations-as-newsmakers): but both sides were absolutely convinced the newspaper was biased against them.
Jrayjoker
Funny, the friend/enemy of my enemy/friend is neutral? What?

If you don't fully support me, you are fully against me. What?
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