For the record, Frosty, people probably assume suppressive fire (on a SAW or otherwise) is full auto because that's what it is in Shadowrun (and, well, that's often the mentality people bring to bear on a Shadowrun message board). I imagine the assumption just sort of carries over to real-world discussions whether they mean for it to or not.

I mean, if you're firing short, controlled bursts into people on purpose, instead of just spraying in their general direction, you're obviously targeting that opponent with three-round bursts fir a +2 power and an extra damage level, not suppressing them.

I don't know....
They look pretty suppressed laying on the floor bleeding out like that.

You are firing short controlled bursts into the cover you think the enemy is hiding behind, to encourage him to _stay_ hidden behind it.

That's how they taught us, Ed.

Doesn't even have to be a controlled burst, just a steady semi-auto will do the trick just fine.

I imagine suppressive fire from a .50 Deagle would be pretty good for making folks stay behind that cover.

That or it'll punch through the cover and kill them. Either way works, I guess.

"Help, help, I'm being suppressed!"


-karma

Actually, it wouldn't be very effective at all. It'll be noisy, but no one's going to know it's a big bad Desert Eagle; it's a handgun, so precise fire is not going to be as easy as with a rifle; and you only get 7+1, so I hope you enjoy reloading. And .50AE's not the nicest stuff to be hit with in the world, but I wouldn't put that much faith in its penetration. It's big, it's loud, it hits hard, and it's still not a rifle. And that's that.

However there is the "fecalator" aspect to consider.

If people can't keep a coherent thread, its not my problem.

We've wandered far, far away from the concepts of realistic self defense with a handgun to spraying bullets willynilly around the streets.

And, in the end, enjoy prosecution and the thrill of civil suits if any of you should ever draw your weapon and attempt to "lay down some suppressive fire."

gfen, tool.

My feelings about realistic self defence are these:

Auto vs Wheelgun - More rounds give you more chances to miss and still live. Since you probably won't be firing more than a few dozen rounds at the extreme, jamming shouldn't be an issue. You don't want to rest your health on bargain weaponry or ammo.

Caliber - Within reasonable minimums, any firearm you can put multiple hits on a paper plate at 15 feet with no preparation, is a good self-defence gun. If you can do the same with a playing card, I would say _any_ firearm. 2 hits with a 9mm is usually better than one hit with a 10mmA, 45ACP, or whatever.

I don't carry a firearm for my own protection, but if I did, I would get the largest caliber that I could control and fire instinctively. And I would practice, practice practice. A hit with a 380ACP will always do more than a miss with a 500S&W.

I wish I was cool enough to post a bunch of inflammatory bullshit, vanish for a week, and then yell at everyone for not keeping a coherent thread while I was gone.

For reliability and ammo capacity one could always go with a revolver that is fed by a removable magazine.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galle...s/1300/1358.htm

Yes, it is a silly gun that is probably more trouble than it is worth and the trounds are terribly overpriced, but the concept could be further explored.



gfen, perhaps you should look into the concept of the tactical retreat. Simply turning your back and running is as good as painting a bullseye on yourself in most self-defense situation. It is important to continue fighting while retreating.

That… depends heavily. Home-defense, possibly, as you're still in the area. On the street, depends—did you drop your valuables, or appear to? If the answer's yes, turning your back and running will typically result in absolutely nothing happening to you.

The mindset that everyone who attacks you is intending to kill you is a venomous one.

~J

True, but it does foster paranoia properly. And in some places, paranoia is a survival trait.

on a related topic sort of...
Did anybody see mythbusters last night. They were checking on how much water was needed to keep you safe from bullets. They went from pistols to shotguns to civil war muskets to 223 rifles and to a 50 caliber rifle.
Very interesting stuff, and yeah, most of the bullets of the high velocity stuff mostly shattered in the water. Stay below four feet of water and you're doing pretty good.

Nevermind. This whole argument is irrelevant and pointless.

gfen is limiting his discussion pretty much soleley to civilian self-defense, maybe stretching into self-defense for a lone beat cop. he's not talking about what the rest of us are talking about: multiple assailants, self-defense for people involved in violent crime, paramilitary combat loads, offensive scenarios--things shadowrunners find themselves involved in, in other words. things that are, you know, relevant to the forum on which this thread is being hosted.

I wanted to hear it from him. Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing against someone's opinion. It's pointless.

In my games we've been assuming from the concept art that Lights are 9mm, Heavies are .44 or .50.

It just makes it easier. Using this as a baseline you can extrapolate other calibers using the Cannon Companion design rules.

That makes not the slightest bit of sense.

Which "that," specifically, Arethusa? There are lots of "thats" floating around on this thread.

And, as far as not having enough ammo for a "home defense" (or whatever scenario it is gfen is going to claim to be exclusively discussing this week)? Ammo is like a parachute. You might not ever need extra, but when you do need it, you better fuckin' have it. I'm not going to take anyone's word for how much ammo is "all I could ever need" for any scenario but a day at the range.

Melee weapons and a house built like a maze, gotta love 'em.

~J

Considering that sometimes take more than 40 bullets from 4 trained police officers to take down an unarmed man who is begging for his life on a poorly lit street, it is important to consider the possibility that lighting conditions will make it difficult to actually hit an attacker. Unless have a high looking cool in shades skill that can be used to center away the lighting penalities, of course.

Couldn't just mention that sometimes you need more ammo, without the cop bashing, could'ja?

And self defense cases against unarmed persons ar emore easily believed when proper lighting isn't a factor...

You guys really think systemic racism can be cured with night vision? I think this is actually sillier than gfen's asshattery.

White guys don't get shot in the evening when reaching for their wallets.

*Call in the hostage negotiator...we've got another thread hijacking...*

Oh well, it's not as if we were actually discussing anything informative here anyway.