I don't think everything can be explained by Jon being bright. If that were the case, one would expect the rules to model things better than they do. Try getting across the Pacific, for example. I suspect time pressure (or other factors leading to a degree of inattention) also played a role.

That just creates the "searching many SBs" problem everybody has.

eh. if you're going to make a ruleset, you need to make sure it works at both the low end and the high end. better to have all the ship stuff in one location, developed all at once, than to develop only half of it now and hope that the guy who ends up writing the other half uses your notes. to the extent that they work, the ship rules are at least integrated and self-consistent.

I would prefer a lot a rule book with initiation and all the magic rule part, than having rules for battleship !

EDIT :


I always thought those bloody rigger should have been mage instead ...

I disagree that needing a calculator in a game is inherently undesirable. Even conceding that point, though, the primary use of a calculator is keeping track of a lot of additions and subtractions (a piece of paper and pencil works just as well, but takes longer).

~J

oh, believe me, i'm not defending the rules themselves. just the space the rules occupy.

I don't think needing a calculator to make a character or play the game is a bad thing. Roleplaying games are the primary reason I can do simple math really easily in my head. And by 'simple' math I mean addition, subtractions, multiplications, and division. I can do it quickly and with large numbers. Something I know a lot of people educated in the 'system' cannot.

Course I can't do calc or trig to save my life, but I don't use those everyday do I?

Basic math sure, hell, even some Algebra, X magazines at Y rounds per magazine equal z where z is the number of dead guys at the end of the night.

I do not use any calculator to create a sr3 character. I use a excel - or like software. To be honest, I don't see any other away to buy equipment ...
Even if I am not bad at calculating.

By the way I don't like needing a calculator for the rules - but even with the complex sr3 rules we don't.

I use excel for gear, and NSRCG for everything else in creating a SR character these days.

Love excel, I was working on spreadsheets for most rules heavy situations, combat modifiers,decking, etc. but am holding offon development until SR4 is released.

I love excel like stuff for sr3, I can't create a character without it (or my first one starting with 5000 Y)
I hate to need such complex thing for rpg ...

And gee, How did I ever survive! I played the first 2 editions with only paper, pencil and a calulator! Oh WOe!

But yeah, I do use NSRCG now. Couldn't live withouot it.

But thats the trade off for building characters that are above 'first level' - Shadowrun chars are expierenced and come with a load of skills/gear/ and or magic. So yeah, a calc may be neccessary to make a character.

Doesn't sound like that will be a problem in 4 - as they are lowering the 'level' of beginning characters.

It wouldn't be bad not having to buy so much things. I would like rules giving examples with "free ammo". because having to calculate :
1 gun as equipment, 1 gun as spare, the 2 shock pads, ammo (by type), the clips, the holsters (fast & concealable), silencer, built in mk ...

It is so stupid to take so much time for equipment.
Might work for a pc game, but when it is as easy to get 10 apds than 1000 apds I would just declare that at a certain level of simulation, rules are just pain in the ass.
I don't like spending more time on my character bank account, than time I spend on mine.

In rpg there is "roleplaying".

Am I the only person who loved tricking out his equipment. For a sam(far and away my favorite type) buying your equipment and tricking out your guns was like a mage buying spells. Take that away, or reduce it to having whatever, takes it a step closer to freeform.

Buying the right gun, and putting the right gear on it was the difference between hitting and missing. I would like to see that stay.

Don't get wrong : I love tweaking my equipment to.
I just find stupid to have that much choice (who DON'T have a shock pad ?) why is there no pack which will be ok for almost all uses ?
I don't mind having rules to have the possibility to get the proper price for the right amount of ammo 10 ammo: 20 Y ( 1/50000 of an A priority).
Because I don't use it.

I just think that example and rules in rpg are a presentation of how to play the game.

Guess what ? Even when money is one of the main point in SR, I really don't think that counting the cost in ammo is the good way to "make it real". Do you count the tips during your game ?

Well I'm a big tipper so yeah But I understand what you mean. It is just for some of us, micromanaging our character is fun.

At least for me, infinite/uncounted/free ammo kills the suspension in ways that paying for tips don't. Besides, who says 'Runners can afford to eat at places that have real waitstaff?

~J

As an adept firing only apds in my gun - average 2 by scenario - low class level, my account is about 136 k Y
I am a happy black dwarf samourai adept
I can eat wherever I want.

(if they accept sin less person)

by the way for real shadowruner I think tips for information might be more important than stock of bullets (I don't speak of how much there is left in your gun) ...

Tips for info we absolutely keep track of. Tips for ordinary good service either get ignored or the entire team pulls a Mr. White.

Edit: I see part of the issue. Yeah, if it's important we keep track of it. Bullets for personal defense and 'Running get kept track of and paid for. We don't, however, usually keep track of costs for bullets spent on the shooting range, etc.

~J

so you take some time to report 10% of your bullet used (since you practice regulary - and you are a shadow runner, not a mercenary) - and you still think free ammo is bad ???
several fees are hidden ... why taking a lot of time counting with such a precision obvious fees ?

Keeping track of ammunition, external box magazines, and whether or not I drop them on the ground when reloading assists with my mental masturbation.

It's even cooler if you write the apps in Python.

there's also a very big difference in the tracking of money between the different types of characters. Playing as an adept there is very little need for money. All you character development is based off of karma not cash for unless you play with the rules for buying karma then you don't need money. Sams on the other hand are ALWAYS desperate for cash because the only way to increase their "powers" is by paying docs to take pieces out of them and putting new ones in. The karma helps to increase skills to be sure but that will eventually lead to them being subpar compared to the mage or adept (or god forbid physmage). So how much a sam is paying for things, including such annoying things as bullets, becomes much more important for them in terms of character development.

In campaigns I've run that have gone any length of time the awakened characters always end up rich as kings but are always scrounging for karma. On the other hand their sam buddies are still living on the street learning how to shoot better so they can get more money.

Uh, guys, for the Battleship senario, anyone seen a movie called Under Siege. That's a shadowrun.
Guns of Naverone.

Beyond being bombarded by Aztecnology troops you could also be getting fire support. Big Red One, To Hell and Back, We Were Soldiers.

the bad guys have heavy weapons- Diamonds are Forever.

Blackhawk Down have airstrikes being called in.

I think they're just obsessed with water. Diving, Drive Submarine, the whole section in R3... they have issues, I tells ya!

Yes, and tyhe Idea that a GM might want to run a game in Polynesia or the Carribean league is so preposterous... No GM should be Allowed to perform such a breach of what is Shadowrun... let alone have actual Development time and resources devoted to helping them out... Why, it's sacreligous!


(FOr those who can't spot the sarcasm.... I am most disappointed in you)

You still don't need the ship rules for Under Siege. All you need is a map of the Missouri. The Hunt for Red October would be a better example, but if you're giving your players nuclear submarines, you're definitely not playing in the standard shadowrun power levels.

If you want to run a Cyberpirates! game, you can do so with with normal boats. Again, the average pirate isn't going to be flinging anti-ship missiles at their targets; and their opposition won't want to waste 750,000 missiles on small targets.

'Red October is a good example, if you use the movie, not the book, because they don't actually shoot them islses and Ryan is na analyst, not a field operative.

"This gentleman has a plan, I think it's stupid but the admiral backs it. But I don't have the personel to wate on it, so you lot are going to be the compromise."

"remember somethings in here don't react well to bullets."

Similarly rescue on damaged ships- USS Oklahoma (in Pearl Harbor), USS Squalus (sub off the East coast of the US in the late 1930's), K-19 Soviet sub with radiation leak, Kiev, soviet sub that sank after catastrophic explosion in forward torpedo room. From movies
For You Eyes Only and Tomorrow Never Dies, James Bond movies where he must dive to a sunken warship. Thunderball, another Bond film with a downed bomber.

For those who question the need for so much attention to water in SR 1-3, uh chummers, look at Seattle. It's a port. on the coast. Puget sounds, Vancouver, NAN, Smugglers, dumping bodies. You should have lots going on in water.

But as far as rules bloat is concerned it is another set of rules that is completely different than all the other rules. My main complaint with using the big ships in games is that it takes another rule set to play them and it is not worth the effort for the occasional time I'd use it. Plus it is really hard to integrate the typical runner team into the action because they are not equipped for it. A lot of those rules are campaign specific and thus a general waste of time for all but a couple of uses.

If I'm running a shadowrun on a ship I don't need all the rules for its operations--I just need a layout, security system, and crew stats--all of which I can do myself.

Just general information about life at sea, nautical stuff, and ship information would have been good enough to give us landlubbers more idea of what sailing is like.

We always played the water as terribly polluted and filled with things that are hungry. Kind of like the feeling everyone had after watching Jaws for the first time.

I still think that space could have been better utilized for trains, planes or human powered wheels like bicycles/skateboards or whatever. Like Cain is saying, the scale is a bit out of the league of the majority of shadowrunners. Might as well had a section on rockets and space shuttles.

[edit] Did they even mention actual sail power and how to figure speed or anything? Sail power is way more relevant to a shadowrunner and have had it come up in a game. The player wanted an auxiliary means of power. When travelling long distance, economy of fueled engines comes into play. How does the spread of the sails affect signature? [/edit]

No they didn't ever deal with actual sail vessels. And I do agree with the sentiment that some space should have been given to trains, bicycles, monorails, etc but they should have taken the place of the lame vehicle design rules instead. Vehicle design, to me, seems to be more out of the realm of typical runners than just about anything else. I see no need for the rules to design your super runnermobile or why every runner should have a custom built Jackal-style gun.

They mentioned sail power, and give speeds based on the type of boat/ship they were propelling, same for signiature. Good signiatures and economy (obviously), bad speed and accelleration. It's in those vehicle design rules Cheops hates so much.

I personally love the vehicle design rules. It gives players and GMs options to cover needs/wants not covered by the few standard vehicles offered in each vehicle class. The more options the people of the Shadowrun world have, the better.