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Nebuchadnezzar
Asides from being destroyed by Sirrurg the Destroyer, what's signifigant about EuroAir flight 329?
Mugzy
If I remember correctly, wasn't there a passenger who was able to hold off Sirrug with magic for a short amount of time before it crashed?

This one strikes me as elimination of a certain passenger or two, with the rest and the airplane being collateral damage Sirrug simply could care less about.


I know they talk about this incident in DotSW, even if they don't go into much detail about Vast Green, there was a quote from everyone's favorite SL post monkey, the Laughing Man, about "Big Green, still hunting the hunters."
Ancient History
A mage on the flight managed to hold off Sirrurg for several minutes, a fairly impressive feat. It didn't quite help Amazonia's image as a bunch of terrorists, either.
Nikoli
Just to be Capt. Obvious here, but sounds like the Dragon was looking to lunch some IE's. Who else could match mojo with a dragon for minutes? Certainly not a fledgling ghost dance participant.
hermit
Any really competent mage, with new DotSW rules. Though "hunting the hunters" implies otherwise. Maybe Big Green is just pissed beyond reason about down-cycle hunting?

then again, with LA's dragonhunters file, maybe the hunters weren't IEs after all, but more ordinary humans?
Velocity
Was Sirrurg explicitly acting on behalf of Amazonia? Were its motivations political?
Cynic project
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Just to be Capt. Obvious here, but sounds like the Dragon was looking to lunch some IE's. Who else could match mojo with a dragon for minutes? Certainly not a fledgling ghost dance participant.

Good ol' Howling may have. Remember that not all mages are made equally. We don't know how powerful all the magic people are. After all missteer Plotdevice..I mean Quicksilver was mighty powerful.

We honestly can't say if the a human mage from say 2002 wouldn't be powerful enough to hold off a dragon for a wile. He could have had spirit pact,been toxic or hell he could have been just that bad ass.
Edward
Great dragon or standered.

With judicious use of shielding you can prevent even a great dragon from casting much in the way of spells at you (+12 TN) the dragon has to keep up with the airplane, that’s going to slow it down a little (having to spend actions to increase speed) a few great form spirits will slow it down if it’s a lesser form dragon (maybe even buy you moments against a great form).

The problem is this is a strategy that must ultimately fail you can’t defeat the dragon, only hold it off.

Edward
Mugzy
In this case, Sirrug is a great. Not only that, he probably was using a fairly large sky spirit or air elemental to speed himself up anyway, not to mention indirect attacks at the airplane and other things shielding can't cover. Usun was known for his savagery as well as his command over air and wood spirits.

Not that any of that matters when it comes to stories, mind you.

Edward
You could engages sprit.

The problem with making the story mach likely engagements buy the rules is that “successfully held of the great dragon for 15 seconds” doesn’t sound all that impressive in spite of the fact that almost every small scale engagement using SR rules is over and done with, one way or the other, within 6 seconds.

Working from the point of the dragon I would have a number of spirits manifest in key locations on the plane, such as just in front of the air intakes, there would be no time for a response

Edward
Herald of Verjigorm
If you are a dragon trying to kill a mage strong enough to hold you off for a quarter of a minute, you will not trust gravity to perform the killing blow. You will rip the craft apart, and precisely obliterate your target, as long as you have no concern for the others who will die as a result. If you are concerned about other casualties, you would wait at the airport.

Really, how often do protagonists or villains survive airplane crashes that "left no survivors" in modern fiction? A competant mage would be expected to find a way to survive such a trivial danger as gravity and water, so if one is your target, leave it no such chance.
Velocity
Was Sirrurg explicitly acting on behalf of Amazonia? Were its motivations political?
Ancient History
No, but who cares about that? 9/11 happens and most Americans blame, oh, the entire Islamic culture. Sorry, might be overreacting a little, these rednecks are getting to me.
Velocity
No apologies necessary.

Seriously though: has there been any canonical reference to Sirrurg's actual motives?
northern lights
i do believe that the closest thing to the canonical would be harlaquin's follow up.
Edward
I still have not met an individual or seen one on TV that claims the bulk of islamics are responsible for or condone any terrorist action..

There must be some because there are plenty of people worrying about that perception but I cant find them so I would think they would be the minority.

Edward
toturi
What exactly was EuroAir flight 329 anyway? A normal airliner? A suborbital? A semi-ballistic?
ShadowDragon8685
I'm willing to bet not even a Greater Dragon could've kept up with a suborbital or a semi-ballistic. A suborbital's speeds are just insane to think about a dragon flying at, and a semiballistic would take him outside of the gaiasphere.
Critias
Don't assume he was flying that speed on his own. Air Elemental/Movement -- swoooooosh.
Edward
I thought both of those options took you out of the mana sphere. That is bad for dragons and worse for spirits helping him keep up.

Edward
ShadowDragon8685
Can even magic move you at supersonic speeds? Mach 8 and above? Especially since a dragon is a Very Big Thing.
Critias
As I recall, the Movement power is a multiplier based on the Force of the Spirit/Elemental involved, right? So take the Dragon's base flight movement, and multiply it by the Force of the heftiest thing it can summon. I bet it's a pretty high number.
ShadowDragon8685
Yeah, but I'm not willing to put money on it being a supersonic number.
Critias
Really, it comes down to what you think is a reasonable magic attribute and Summoning skill for a GD (that is, what Force of spirit it will summon). And it also depends on whether more than one spirit can apply the power at a time (whether that's the case for normal mortal magicians or not). And I'm not sure what the "base" flight speed of a dragon is, now that I think about it. I'd just say something like -- if you want the GD to be able to do it, and you're either the GM or the writer of the story, the GD does it.

Since, well, that's the trend, whether I say it's the rule or not.
ShadowDragon8685
I'd rather believe that a GD using those abilities could catch up with a jumbo jet, than that it could fly at speeds that require ultratensile materials and bleeding-edge aerodynamics to not fly yourself apart.
Edward
I believe a metahuman can beat the sound barrier with some difficulty.

Say elf with both + attribute edges applied to willpower. And muscle toner 4, that’s qui 13. an adrenal pump 2 and super thyroid gland puts that up to 16

Now give it enhanced articulation and reflex recorder athletics (running) synthecardium 2 as well as being the best skilled runner at chargen (athletics (running) 5/7) and hydraulic jacks in the legs at rating 5 and I think we have 16 dice for the athletics test to increase running speed. And I recall there being cyber wear to reduce the TN to 2 so +13 qui for the purpose of running is achievable

Cyber skates increase your running multiplier to +6 so the movement rate is up to 174m/CT or 208.8KM/houre.

A friendly conjurer will give you a force 9 air elemental to move you faster (that’s the best that can be summoned without extreme risk) making your final velocity 1879.2Km/h. dose that beat the speed of sound.

An adept could not get that fast without getting a lot of cyber and taking geasa to offset the magic loss.

Givon these numbers a think a great dragon can beat the speed of sound

Edward
Jrayjoker
Sung to the tune of Matchmaker...

Rulebreaker, rulebreaker, break me a rule....

Not in the sense that you violated canon, but in the sense that your example is obscene to me...

Now if he were to trip, that would be funny. wobble.gif
weblife
Um, the Dragon just has to use Movement Power on the Plane.. Plane speed/9, and Dragon speedX9. That should do the trick.

Plane going 4.000 km/h divided by 9, thats 444 km/h

Dragon, QUI 11, Flight modifier 4, multiplied by 9, thats 475 km/h

Its doable, easy.
Velocity
Can a spirit really use the Movement power to reduce a target's speed?
Jrayjoker
I believe that is the case.
Velocity
Not to be difficult, especially since most of us are at work and away from our books, but could someone provide me with a book & page reference for this?

Thanks in advance.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Critters PDF pp. 12-13)

MOVEMENT
Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Sustained
The being may use the Movement power to increase or
decrease a target’s movement rate within the terrain it controls
by multiplying or dividing the target’s movement rate by its Essence.

When used on vehicles, the critter makes an Essence Test
with a target number equal to half the vehicle’s Body. Multiply
the successes by the vehicle’s Acceleration Rating and add the
result to or subtract it from the vehicle’s Speed in the next
Combat Turn (similar to the vehicle making an Acceleration or
Deceleration Test). The critter may continue making Essence
Tests to increase or decrease the vehicle’s speed each Combat
Turn it sustains the Movement power. Depending on the situation,
this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test.


Bookninja!
Jrayjoker
Double
Velocity
Sweet, thanks!

Wow, this makes Movement even better--and it was already a seriously useful power.
Kagetenshi
Indeed. Movement, like Confusion, is one of those powers that is so awesome it's somewhat broken.

~J
Velocity
I first started worrying about it when the shaman I'm GMing started pacing LAVs. Throw in some Improved Invisibility and layer a spirit's Concealment on top, and you've got a hell of a stealth drone.
Kagetenshi
Never mind that, check the ramming rules.

~J
Velocity
I'm at work and sans my books--how broken are the ramming rules? Do I have to worry about shamans starpping cowcatchers to their foreheads and demolishing buildings?

Bad enough they're zipping around the city at 150 kph, invisible to the entire visual spectrum, radar, sonar, Babar, Gaius Baltar, wish upon a star, etc.
Kagetenshi
Not Shamans, Riggers. Get a vehicle with lowish Handling and a Body of about 5, a Rigger with a VCR-3, and expect to be able to ram things at 500 meters/turn (50D, for those keeping score) while taking no damage. To be on the safe side, you'd probably want to kick it down to ~300 meters/turn, or 30D. Note that no armor counts for ramming, ever. Movement just allows them to reach that speed in anything but a purpose-built vehicle.

(The secret to this is that successes on the Rigger's Ramming Test reduce the Power of the damage the ramming vehicle takes by Successes*Body. Twelve dice vs. TN 2 expects 10 successes, or -50 to the Power. After that, you just need to roll eight 2s.)

~J
ShadowDragon8685
If you slow a 4,000 Km/h plane down to 444 Km/h plane, it crashes. Any plane that has to go that fast is without doubt a delta-winged fly-by-wire macihine that has to keep airspeed to stay airborne.

Granted, that's the dragon's goal ANYWAY, so I doubt it matters...
Velocity
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Not Shamans, Riggers. Get a vehicle with lowish Handling
(...)
After that, you just need to roll eight 2s.)

Oh, now... that's just not right. Hasn't an errata or something dealt with that? How do you house-rule it? I mean, no matter how good of a driver you are, if you ram something you're going to take some damage.
Kagetenshi
But that damage doesn't have to be to an important part of the vehicle. It kinda makes sense at the much lower levels, but breaks down fast.

As for how to house-rule it, I have no idea. That's one of the questions I'm dreading in SR3R.

~J
hermit
Why not work with higher-than-D damage levels? say, every 30 kpt, add another two virtual successes to the resistance test (D+2, D+4, ect)? That would make it pretty hard for Riggers at such high speeds to just roll it down, TN2 or not.
Kagetenshi
Because it breaks down badly enough at 20D/2D.

~J
Velocity
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But that damage doesn't have to be to an important part of the vehicle.

True dat.

On a related note, can multiple uses of the Movement power (either by the same spirit or different spirits) be stacked? I suspect not, but after hearing about those ramming rules I figured I'd ask.
toturi
How fast can a nature spirit move? How far can it see? You got to have the nature spirit keep the vehicle within LOS if you want the spirit power to affect it. You got to waylay a semi-ballistic/suborbital either on the take-off or landing in order NOT to get manawarped. Spending a couple of minutes in space should not be survivable even for a Great Dragon.
Crusher Bob
As the flights paths of commercial flights are 'fixed' it would be possible to wait for one somewhere along the flight path. Also, the flight might have been a conventional airliner.
Nyxll
I know this was old and dead ... but here are two great images.

dragon movement

This is what really happened with 329. (the dragon is just sleeping it off)
real photo
Tiralee
Song: Cake - "Going The Distance"


"...cause he's going the distance, he's going for speeeeeeed..."


Sorry, laughing my ass off here with the mental image of a Great Dragon being out-dragged by a rigger, then trying in vain to "rediscover the zone".

-Tir.




And regarding the linkaged eye-candy...

- it's 2070, welcome to the new series: "Lost 2 - the Awakened World"
tisoz
QUOTE (Edward @ Jul 19 2005, 03:48 AM)
I believe a metahuman can beat the sound barrier with some difficulty.

Say elf with both + attribute edges applied to willpower. And muscle toner 4, that’s qui 13. an adrenal pump 2 and super thyroid gland puts that up to 16

I'm not sure why you are raising Willpower, maybe you meant Intelligence? Besides that, since bioware is considered a natural modification of an attribute, it is still limited to the Attribute Maximum. A Night One Elf with Exceptional Attribute is limited to Quickness (8+1=9, 9*1.5 rounded up equals 14) 14. You're standard elf with exceptional attribute would be 12. (I'm waiting for someone to add in all the drugs that provide a boost.)

QUOTE (weblife)
Um, the Dragon just has to use Movement Power on the Plane.. Plane speed/9, and Dragon speedX9. That should do the trick.

Plane going 4.000 km/h divided by 9, thats 444 km/h


When using movement power on vehicles, the speed is not multiplied or divided - the power multiplies the acceleration and the result is added or subtracted from the vehicle's speed. It can also result in a handling test and there are limits based on the force of the spirit in relation to the body of the vehicle.

QUOTE (Velocity)
On a related note, can multiple uses of the Movement power (either by the same spirit or different spirits) be stacked? I suspect not, but after hearing about those ramming rules I figured I'd ask.


Movement takes a complex action but is not an exclusive action. So with enough services, enough turns, and maintaining line of sight ... It seems possible.
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